[W16rocks]

The Agnipath scheme, according to me is very important at this point of time as we need lots of money for our purchases like Fighter jets, subs etc.
Most of our budget is spent in pension and salaries, which will reduce due to this scheme, also CSD costs will also reduce, and mind me I am speaking on this topics with experience, both my father and grandfather have been officers in the armed forces.
Also with this scheme we can keep the army young at heart, which is important for the defence forces.

But more than this what is disturbing are the riots and destruction of the public property by supposed army candidates, do such indisciplined people even deserve a chance, I feel strong action should be taken and these rioters should be dealt with an iron hand.

[whitewing]

As lay person, who has access to only public sources of information.
I find it surprising how opinions flip direction, based on policies, rather than on new data. And the chorus sings along to the changed tune.

On the Chinese incursions in Ladhak, over the past two years we have been informed that the Chinese Army is not staffed with "motivated" and "well trained" personnel due to the conscription and the short duration of the tour. Due to this the Indian army had an edge.

On technological advantage over boots on the ground.
Based on what gets reported on Ukraine, the Russians are gaining ground and that is because of the number they are able to throw into battle. The terms used in media - "grinding battle" "war of attrition" etc.
Isn't numbers itself a deterrent in a conventional war?
If XI gets afflicted by the same thoughts as Putin, and decides to send forces down south en masse. Wouldn't numbers matter?

In a professional army, in addition to the "love for the country", the personnel work for the wages. The reaction we are seeing around the country is a reiteration that the a job in the armed forces is seen as an stable, respectable job option compared to other (or lack of) job opportunities. Is there some other explanation to lack of protests in the more industrialized regions of India?

[sgmuser]

I have some questions the way this scheme (and many other) was put into action. There where no news of a draft (I might have missed and thus it actually means, was not discussed enough in the public and I am avid new follower) and it was being discussed as a model or a pilot scheme with input from various different quarters, and then given a future date of implementation etc etc.

Most of the time the issue with the public is the awareness and knowledge of the scheme and not more on the real impact.

Secondly, how many times we do this repeatedly without consulting the right people? Even the army people are not 100% convinced according to my casual chat and they are having their apprehension of these scheme in the long term.

To me, initially, I thought this is a good one to have to reduce the cost burden for a country like India but then, the foreign policy and the neighborhood we are blessed with and the way we handle them now, we need to be careful of these measures and not coming up with policies by one or two people rather a team of mixed groups with appropriate rounds of discussions, agreements and piloting etc.

I am for one to support compulsory army service like Singapore does for at least 2 years (possibility to continue as recruit if qualified, with a degree as part time so that they are still qualified for something if they decide to exit) for every one including women. This is has immense benefits when it comes to discipline both physical and mental.

[zombiedriver]

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

I had engineering batchmates who post their engineering degree, went and served their short service commission as that is what they wanted to do always. I also have had colleagues pursuing management degrees along with me, after completing their SSB timelines. From my limited interactions with such folks, they do have opportunities post their SSB. I am not sure if that would be the case for the "Agniveer" soldiers. I look forward to hearing from folks with much better understanding and visibility on this matter.

In the short service commission, They enter after graduation. Hence they have avenues after they finish their service. But in this scheme it is literally kids who are inducted and trained to use arms. I for one feel that this is a step towards main streaming private military contractor's in our country like a lot of the west has. These kids will most probably go onto such firms after their time with the army. It just reeks of more benefits for the corporates as the training costs are borne by the government and these guys get young kids ready to do anything for money as they have not many options in other areas of work after time served. Not to mention the government itself will hire these PMC's for operations, Hence its again just crony capitalism like a lot of the central government schemes over the past few years have been.

[Lalvaz]

Originally Posted by whitewing

As lay person, who has access to only public sources of information.
I find it surprising how opinions flip direction, based on policies, rather than on new data. And the chorus sings along to the changed tune.

Welcome to the current state of journalism. Current lot of journalists don't question, don't analyze or use their own brains. They just publish the drivel dished out by the concerned PR firms. This is best proven by the absolute same wordings in all the news articles. There is no differentiation unless one takes into account their political leanings, which is largely reflected in the editorial pages.

Originally Posted by whitewing

In a professional army, in addition to the "love for the country", the personnel work for the wages. The reaction we are seeing around the country is a reiteration that the a job in the armed forces is seen as an stable, respectable job option compared to other (or lack of) job opportunities. Is there some other explanation to lack of protests in the more industrialized regions of India?

Yes, you're right. The outrage is largely due to the fact that the stable respectable and predictable job is no longer the same. The job is neither stable nor predictable. A government job by its nature is coveted for the stability, and they've simply taken that USP out of the equation now.

They've also done it only for the junior army members, since they make up a huge population, have no voice or representation politically and are basically canon fodder. IF it was truly a game changer wrt efficiency, then let them do it for all govt jobs. But they won't.

Originally Posted by zombiedriver

In the short service commission, They enter after graduation. Hence they have avenues after they finish their service. But in this scheme it is literally kids who are inducted and trained to use arms. I for one feel that this is a step towards main streaming private military contractor's in our country like a lot of the west has.

You hit the nail on the head. That's the way its headed indeed. In a nutshell, its a slow route to privatizing the army.

[superbad]

Originally Posted by anjan_c2007

This scheme for soldiers, airmen and sailors appears to be prima facie a short service commission for them. They enter as Lance Naiks and could be promoted as Naiks in their four years of service. Similarly for the two other services it will be the corresponding ranks.

The Agniveers will have a separate rank, different from all current subordinate ranks. My guess is it could be "Agniveer" itself.

[twin-turbo]

IMHO, the Agniveer Scheme is a proper step towards modernisation and rationalisation of the army, over the years, the armed forces have turned more into a bureaucracy akin to that of other government institutions than those who protect the country.They have deviated from their original purpose and have more or less become an employment scheme. Good move by the Government.

[superbad]

As someone who is serving in the armed forces, let me offer a first person perspective. Most of the concerns regarding this scheme which have been voiced by different members are genuine & valid. A point by point rebuttal to so called advantages stated:-

1) Saves the government money - Agreed, but are the armed forces the only means of doing that? What about the freebies & pensions enjoyed by one time MLA/MLC/MP etc? Furthermore the defence bill appears bloated because of the hidden behemoth called the defence civilians. Why no restructuring/pruning in their rank & file?

2) Reducing the age profile - There is no advantage in just reducing the age profile without any commensurate increase in skill set. It is like substituting a 30 year old illiterate person with a 25 year old illiterate.

3) Giving trained manpower back to the nation - More like semi skilled in arms & only physically fit, but no employable skills other than a PT teacher, a security guard or an office boy.

4) Giving an educational degree/Diploma to the Agniveers - Very unlikely, out of the 4 years tenure, a bare minimum of 6 months in training leaves 3.5 years to serve. Any vocational degree/diploma takes atleast 3 years, even if we reduce it to 2, that means there's only 1.5 years to perform usable work for their unit.

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

They talk about retaining 25% Agniveers for another 15 years. Who decides which kid will make the cut and which will have to go? I fear this will become another avenue for institutionalised corruption and favouritism in a typically sarkaari fashion.

Originally Posted by dragracer567

2) Given that 25% of the agniveers would be retained and this would be decided by the CO, favoritism will run rampant - the most suitable candidate might not be the one who is selected.

While the rest of your concerns are valid, this one is misplaced. I can tell you that the selection procedures for pretty much anything are robust & impartial in the defence services.

[charanreddy]

I believe the scheme solves for some of the burning problems in the Indian Armed Forces but goes about it in a limited way. There is not a whole lot of thought given to what happens after 4 years, once candidate leaves the force. 11 lakh is not a whole lot of money to a young man starting out with Amrs training. The govt needs to think in a more holistic way. This is how I would go about it..

1. After the 4 years of mandatory service, Govt. provides free undergraduate education in disciplines like Law, Engineering and management. By 24 - 25 years of age, we have a person who has 4 years of force experience and 4 years of undergraduate experience. This is a powerful combination of discipline and knowledge. I have worked with colleagues from Israel who undergo mandatory army service and found them to be really impactful and effective. They progress through the ranks much faster on average. This could be anecdotal as I don't have a large sample size.

2. Expand the scope of Indian Police Service. Create a new central forces institution ( Junior IPS ? or Agniveer Police Service (APS ?) ) to include Assistant Sub-Inspector level officers and give preference to 'Agniveer' passouts after giving them police training. A few benefits :

2.1 Much more loyal and patriotic police force who have gone through real combat and not the pot bellied average idiot who has a fabricated 10th passout certificate.

2.2 Avoid deplorable scams which shake the faith of people in police services. example below.

https://www.thequint.com/news/politi...s-in-karnataka

2.3 Limit the local political influence in police hiring, appointments and transfers.

3. Give exemptions to Agniveer passouts interms of age relaxation, educational qualifications for govt, jobs. Create reservations in higher educational institutes and govt. jobs.

4. Give incentives for private security agencies to hire agniveer passouts.

I am sure a lot more thought can be put into the design of this program.

It is definitely a good step, but needs to be backed with solid thought and execution.

[octane_100]

I was wanting to know more on this scheme and this thread has more information than anywhere in the mainstream media. While I don't want to comment on the merits and demerits of the scheme itself as my understanding is extremely limited, I do think a sweeping change is never good in a society as diverse and complex as ours. It could have been given as an option wherein say 20-30% of the total requirement is filled via this route to begin with.

[karanddd]

The great irony in all this is that all the people who naysay the concerns about young men with little or no opportunities being let loose with military training cannot but deny the evidence of the very same young men, who are prospective soldiers according to this new crony corporate scheme, engaging in large scale acts of violence to register protest. Surely all the train burning will decrease once these men have access to weapons and the training to use them? Maybe thanks to their time in the military, with a bit of PTSD from experiences of combat or bullying, they can upgrade to mass shootings and bombings?

It's a vile scheme both from a national and individual point of view. India is not Israel or South Korea, we are a far, far poorer country, and we cannot hope to offer the same kind of economic opportunities. The Israeli who takes his or her lumpsum to travel the world does so because of the strength of their passport and the ease they feel on account of knowing that they'd have opportunities when they come back. Which poor Indian person, after having served 4 years in the military as an underling, will take their 11 lakhs to travel, at the time when they would likely be filled with anxiety (& rightfully so) regarding their future prospects?

[buntee90]

Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator

A very pertinent point. The answer is simple - that armed forces simply don't have as many officer cadre people as needed. They are already insufficient for the needs.
Which brings me to extended question. Why can't this scheme of recruiting young kids be extended to officer cadre too?
Yes we need more advanced tech and weapons. But when in need, it is still the men carrying the weapons and running the tech that matter.

The same goes for Other ranks too, there is shortage there too! Not just officers. Further Short Service commision is for 10 Years with an option to extend. The Agniveer is for only 4. I think most would agree that a combat ready soldier will take at least 4-5 years.

Further we just cannot compare this to the US Israel and South Korea, they have far less population and excellent support system for such soldiers. The state Government claiming that they will provide support to Agniveers are far away from reality. They can’t do much, as most of the Jobs are already reserved and Supreme Court will most definitely strike down another Quota try.

Frankly it’s just another copy paste Jobs from the Developed Western World with far more resources and even lesser population.

One of the major problems, none of the Senior Officers want to comment is the decades Old Buddy system; where Combat trained Jawans are reduced to DOMESTIC HELP of Sr Officers. This is humiliating for the Jawans and for Armed Forces as a whole. 10s of thousands of Soldiers are attached with Sr officers. And sadly this situation still prevails after 75y of Independence. A man dressed in Olive is doing household chores at an Officers residence is a Shame !!

Sadly our Distinguished Generals who are usually very chatty on Social media and TV, when questioned about this system will go silent or Start giving Vague answers.

[Mudhalaipatti]

Any and all schemes are welcome in a democracy, once it goes through the motion of deliberation and consultation, especially with lawmakers and stakeholders. Late Bipin Rawat was dead against this idea. Wonder what his reservations were. I can give many recent examples of policies and schemes taken by a select few, who may not have had our heterogeneous nation's best interests in mind. After all democracy is inclusive decisioning. Tell me that India is not a democracy anymore and I'll shut up.

[dailydriver]

There are two aspects to the issue.

I

Agnipath scheme is being opposed across the nation by youngsters who would have - but for the Covid hiatus - had a chance to enlist into the armed forces in the last two years. That would have ensured them a secure tenure of fifteen years, confirmed pension and other perks. There have in fact been fitness and medical tests conducted for these aspirants - only the written exams were/are said to be pending.

Although the government has temporarily extended the maximum age limit for recruitment by two years (23 from 21), it has chosen to remain mum about the fate of the pending written tests; thereby effectively closing the doors for the affected folks to be taken in under the old scheme.

This delay tactics isn't something new or limited to this specific government. Back in 2004 & 2006, when NPS replaced the regular pension scheme, appointments were deliberately delayed. Having been a victim of such a measure, I can empathise with the feelings of those opposing the retrospective implementation of the scheme.

I don't endorse their methods of opposition: I firmly denounce the violence and disorder. But I can certainly understand their angst.

Irrespective of the prospective action, government should first address the issues raised by the aforementioned aspirants. They deserve a chance to be recruited under the rules that were in existence at the time of pending notifications.

Please complete the process you have already begun.

II

The high and the mighty in the establishment have time and again made clear that the armed forces are not an extension of, or an alternative for MNREGA and therefore they are not under any compulsion to ensure that the men are employed for an assured term of 15 years.

'Fair argument', one might say if arguing on the side of the government. Else, one might aver how, with the introduction of Agnipath, the barely educated and educatable youth from the lower economic and social strata of the society will be left with very few avenues of long term, gainful employment.

It is a fact universally acknowledged that lakhs of poor families across the nation have found their financial liberation in the form of monetary benefits coming in from their sons proudly employed in the Indian armed forces. Apart from the regular salary, pension, perks, land grants and medical facilities, the forces bestowed upon the families a social respect that would otherwise have been a chimera for most of them.

A promised gratuity of 12 lakhs at the end of the four year tenure isn't likely to take the young retirees too far in life. At the current rate of inflation, by 2026, I doubt if one can afford at least a sub four metre sedan and start a taxi business!

More so because, there isn't a clear picture on where/how the 30% monthly employee contribution will be routed to or invested in. Again, speaking from my own experience of having, in the last two years, lost close to four lakhs (in realtime and future value) of hard earned money wisely parked in the government sponsored, mandatory NPS scheme, I can understand where the skepticism about government's assurance stems from and leads to. I have twenty more years to recover my lost capital; an opportunity an Agniveer won't have.

Countries across the world do have robust systems of short term army service - forced and voluntary. Princes and politicians have been part of this system; both the people involved and the process have flourished for long.

However, India being India, can we bring in support systems capable of handling and nurturing the lakhs of barely legal age veterans that will stream out of strict regimental lifestyle year after year? Can we take care of their moral and psychological needs? Can we absorb them into the society on a mutually beneficial basis? Please remember, we are talking of full bodied, potent blooded 22-25 year old bachelors and not 35 + family men.

Even assuming that all veterans will be men of gold, where will they find their next meal from - BSF, CRPF, ITBP, CISF?

State governments do reserve a portion of their jobs for ex military men. But thousands will be laying claim to a small number of openings - each and every time posts are notified.

x x x x x

Having seen the opposition to the scheme from the employee point of view, it is imperative for us to look at what it entails for national security too.

Most of us are patriotic: but not patriotic enough to join the ranks of the army and fight pitched battles on the borders. Whereas we contribute to the nation's progress in relative safety, the uniformed men and women do it by hobnobbing with death on a daily basis.

They too are humans and have family. Apart from their deep love for the nation, it is the implicit belief in the system - that it would take care of their families even in their absence - that eggs them on to put their lives at stake. As they say, they are ready to sacrifice their today so that the rest of the country may have a better tomorrow.

Can we expect the same level of dedication from contract soldiers doing their tour of duties for a short span of three and half years?

I, for one, doubt that.

x x x x x

On a side note, I would be very very interested to go back in time and find out what real men of steel like Field Marshall Cariappa, General K S Thimmayya and Filed Marshall SHFJ Mankeshaw would have had to say about such a scheme!!!

[Lowflyer23]

Originally Posted by sierrabravo98

I have observed the workings of the Armed Forces (and other Government organizations) quite closely due to the nature of my father's job. So forgive me if I draw my conclusions based on my own observations (over 23 years of life).

I'm not playing any cards here, just reiterating about the hard work the armed forces officers do (all ranks) as compared to the other government department officers of similar posts.

Yes, I may not know answers to some of your technical questions. Also, my father would be more than happy to answer your queries in whichever way you'd like, but putting aspects and reasons of high level government decisions is not what is done on a public forum. The grass always appears lusher from the other side. It's sad to see the people of the country so ignorant of the sacrifice of the forces and always ready to point fingers and be that "activist". Also what is not done is demeaning brats of the armed forces. Moreover the opening post itself is by a distinguished Bhpian who is an army brat.

Thanks for the understanding.