[naveenroy]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

Resurrecting this old thread, instead of creating a new one. Seems relevant to the discussion.
The case of mid level IT personal is pretty bleak in India today. Most of the entry level jobs are slowly getting replaced by automated processes, leading to lower job creation and salary stagnation. The same is being predicted for mid level jobs too, and people who are not reskilling themselves will soon find themselves in the firing lines, without jobs.
Seems the IT golden age is well and truly over...

http://profit.ndtv.com/news/life-and...=home-rightnow

Yeah seems the appropriate thread to discuss it too. Things are changing. My friend in the US warned me about the new way of IT and suggested that I upskill ASAP - or find myself in the firing line. He says things have changed there already and it will be just months since they start doing that.

I spoke to some old-timers at our office and they seem unfazed - I am sure that most of the middle-level management will find ways to escape the cuts.

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by naveenroy

Yeah seems the appropriate thread to discuss it too. Things are changing. My friend in the US warned me about the new way of IT and suggested that I upskill ASAP - or find myself in the firing line. He says things have changed there already and it will be just months since they start doing that.

I spoke to some old-timers at our office and they seem unfazed - I am sure that most of the middle-level management will find ways to escape the cuts.

The trick to escaping a probable cut is to either have or project to have either a technical skill or a functional skill or may be both. The first in the firing line would be those managers whose sole competence in the company is 'to manage'

[phamilyman]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

The trick to escaping a probable cut is to either have or project to have either a technical skill or a functional skill or may be both. The first in the firing line would be those managers whose sole competence in the company is 'to manage'

Completely disagree. It goes like this in real life:
- Those teams that have the worst political connections and aren't on high priority projects
- Those teams on the bench are then singled out.

Source: Someone who was let go this way by a big tech giant. AFAIK No "managers" were fired / asked to leave by that company.

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

Completely disagree. It goes like this in real life:
- Those teams that have the worst political connections and aren't on high priority projects
- Those teams on the bench are then singled out.

Source: Someone who was let go this way by a big tech giant. AFAIK No "managers" were fired / asked to leave by that company.

Agree, this is the Indian way of management, for now. Wait until a level of automation replaces the daily meetings and excel sheet/Ms project drudgery practiced as 'managing'. The mantra today is cost cutting. When companies spot that they can save the salary of a mid level manage by either technology or something else, the networkers will get booted out double quick. Actually benching a worker and then letting him go is a strategy practiced by IT Giants today. Almost all TCS employees who were let go were put on bench for a period, then given poor ratings and then retrenched.

[naveenroy]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

Those teams that have the worst political connections and aren't on high priority projects
- Those teams on the bench are then singled out.

Source: Someone who was let go this way by a big tech giant. AFAIK No "managers" were fired / asked to leave by that company.

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

When companies spot that they can save the salary of a mid level manage by either technology or something else, the networkers will get booted out double quick.

Political connections. Well said. I think both points are true. And politics will take you only so far. I think this turn of IT is bigger than that. Middle level managers have been asked to leave in my friends company in the US. It will reach here soon. I just cannot wait for that day. There is so much of flab that you can cut out of management - guys who do not provide any value to the company.

[phamilyman]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

Agree, this is the Indian way of management, for now. Wait until a level of automation replaces the daily meetings and excel sheet/Ms project drudgery practiced as 'managing'. The mantra today is cost cutting. When companies spot that they can save the salary of a mid level manage by either technology or something else, the networkers will get booted out double quick. Actually benching a worker and then letting him go is a strategy practiced by IT Giants today. Almost all TCS employees who were let go were put on bench for a period, then given poor ratings and then retrenched.

Doesn't really work that way IMHO. You can cut much of the riff-raff / brainless chores yes, but you still need good decision makers who can proactively solve problems and make sense of the data. Those managers are irreplacable.

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by naveenroy

Political connections. Well said. I think both points are true. And politics will take you only so far. I think this turn of IT is bigger than that. Middle level managers have been asked to leave in my friends company in the US. It will reach here soon. I just cannot wait for that day. There is so much of flab that you can cut out of management - guys who do not provide any value to the company.

Well put actually. I being outside of IT now, have a better perspective, IMO, because of an outside perspective. From what I read and hear, there is going to be a big time shakedown of Middle level folks (CTC between 10-25 lakhs) soon, may be as soon as within the next 2/3 quarters. The Greek crisis has accelerated this phenomena. I have been telling all my IT friends to quickly skill up on some or the other technology, basically project oneself as useful technically, and having technical certifications is an added benefit. The long term problem of IT is, that like all industries it had accelerated growth because the base was zero, now with the maturing of this industry the growth and profits will mellow down. Hence in the next 20 years or so, the job creation will be half or one third of the initial job creation, of the past 2 decades. The glory days of IT is well and truly over. It's time now to pull up ones socks, be multi skilled, multi talented and scale up, just to survive, forget grow.

[alpha1]

Ah well, just today I was reading into how IT folks are metamorphosing into e-commerce.
E-commerce is the next IT (boomwise)

[NPV]

Originally Posted by alpha1

Ah well, just today I was reading into how IT folks are metamorphosing into e-commerce.
E-commerce is the next IT (boomwise)

I didn't quite get this, can you please explain what you mean ?
E-Commerce has for several years been one of the mainstream IT business domains.

[alpha1]

Originally Posted by NPV

I didn't quite get this, can you please explain what you mean ?
E-Commerce has for several years been one of the mainstream IT business domains.

Was referring to this:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/t...w/47969664.cms

[naveenroy]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

Doesn't really work that way IMHO. You can cut much of the riff-raff / brainless chores yes, but you still need good decision makers who can proactively solve problems and make sense of the data. Those managers are irreplacable.

True that - but with new way of IT (maybe Agile) - you need lesser number of managers. The decision makers are lesser, organization is leaner, meaner.

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

From what I read and hear, there is going to be a big time shakedown of Middle level folks (CTC between 10-25 lakhs) soon, may be as soon as within the next 2/3 quarters. The Greek crisis has accelerated this phenomena.

Good that you are out of IT. What do you do these days?

Yes, hopefully the shakedown starts soon.

[joe1980]

Originally Posted by naveenroy

True that - but with new way of IT (maybe Agile) - you need lesser number of managers. The decision makers are lesser, organization is leaner, meaner.

What I would see that might potentially happen is that the decision makers would eventually be the doers, the honey-bees!. We are working with an IT services company for the product that we develop.

This IT services company does not have the so called "Account Managers, Project Manager, Program Manager, Engagement Manager, XXX Manager, Client Partner" what so ever, but rather we have multi-talented, multi-skilled doers! This already works fantastically for us!

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by alpha1

Was referring to this:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/t...w/47969664.cms

Usual nonsense from ignorant HR consultants... however Anuraag Gupta from Magna Infotech gets it right. Just because salary is matching, they not be able to switch that easily. The role and culture is very different.

Originally Posted by joe1980

This IT services company does not have the so called "Account Managers, Project Manager, Program Manager, Engagement Manager, XXX Manager, Client Partner" what so ever, but rather we have multi-talented, multi-skilled doers! This already works fantastically for us!

This will happen as the companies are forced to tighten the belt. One trick ponies won't survive the coming change.

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

The Greek crisis has accelerated this phenomena.

What is the connection between Greek crisis and this?

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

The long term problem of IT is, that like all industries it had accelerated growth because the base was zero, now with the maturing of this industry the growth and profits will mellow down. Hence in the next 20 years or so, the job creation will be half or one third of the initial job creation, of the past 2 decades. The glory days of IT is well and truly over.

This is the real reason, and it would have happened irrespective of Greek crisis.

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

I have been telling all my IT friends to quickly skill up on some or the other technology, basically project oneself as useful technically, and having technical certifications is an added benefit.

This approach is no different than trying to dig a well when you are thirsty. We are talking about people in their 30s and 40s. At that level, they are not measured by mere technical skill, but their domain knowledge. And domain knowledge cannot be picked up by reading up or attending classes. It takes years to attain while working on multiple projects in a certain domain. Their best bet is to identify the domain they are most familiar and polish their knowledge in it as much as possible.

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Usual nonsense from ignorant HR consultants... however Anuraag Gupta from Magna Infotech gets it right. Just because salary is matching, they not be able to switch that easily. The role and culture is very different.

This will happen as the companies are forced to tighten the belt. One trick ponies won't survive the coming change.

What is the connection between Greek crisis and this?

This is the real reason, and it would have happened irrespective of Greek crisis.

This approach is no different than trying to dig a well when you are thirsty. We are talking about people in their 30s and 40s. At that level, they are not measured by mere technical skill, but their domain knowledge. And domain knowledge cannot be picked up by reading up or attending classes. It takes years to attain while working on multiple projects in a certain domain. Their best bet is to identify the domain they are most familiar and polish their knowledge in it as much as possible.

Originally Posted by naveenroy

True that - but with new way of IT (maybe Agile) - you need lesser number of managers. The decision makers are lesser, organization is leaner, meaner.



Good that you are out of IT. What do you do these days?

Yes, hopefully the shakedown starts soon.

Greek crisis has or rather will slow down EU. Some portion of work which is EU related, especially long projects may not materialise or may come in smaller quantities. Remember in 2008 the mantra was to de risk from US and move business source to EU and Asia Pacific.

Regarding domain experts, they will be safe as long as their domain exists. But majority of the current mid management are more of a programming language expert who turned managers, coming directly from engineering colleges as freshers. These chaps have not really picked up domain skills, since their understanding of a domain is from an IT solutions perspective and not from working there for a while. Now as mid managers they have lost touch with technical knowledge too, and will be the first to get fired, if they skill up on technology quickly, they will have breathing space to decide what to do when the bloodletting starts.

Agile is what companies will be forced to be, especially with pressure from clients and weakening currency worries, and yes they will do with lesser managers in the furture.


I luckily got the opportunity to pursue my dream, and I am in aviation, currently flying for a major airline in India.

[apachelongbow]

and it begins now... microsoft retrenching a large number of people mostly in its phone business.
http://www.ndtv.com/world-news/micro...00-jobs-779501