[thirdmainroad]

Originally Posted by tazmaan

As per their local belief they killed the snake and took it to the hospital for identifying the course of treatment. (Is this required ?)

Even herpetologists such as Rom Whitaker, who I know personally will tell you that if a snake does bite someone, it is best to kill it and take it along for proper identification. Anti-venom is no joke, it has to be administered only if absolutely needed. You need to know what snake it is, though in India, we use a poly anti venom that is designed to work for the bites of the Big 4 - to make sure the anti venom is administered in the right doses.

Anti venom is not administered just because a snake bites you, even if the snake is properly identified and is confirmed highly venomous. It is administered only when symptoms start developing and dose based on the severity of the symptoms.

Fact is over 50% of snake bites are what are called dry bites. A venomous snake like a cobra will bite you, properly puncture your skin, but will not inject any venom into you. This is because snakes conserve their venom for prey, and do not like to use it for defence unless absolutely necessary. It takes a snake a lot of energy to to make venom and they are very careful with it. So therefore, anti venom is not given unless you start showing symptoms of envenomation.

This is actually a big problem in India - that snakes more often than not inflict a dry bite. And we have the worlds highest cases of snake bite fatalities - it’s a magic number - we loose almost exactly 50,000 people a year to snake bites, and lakhs every year are bitten by snakes, do not die but face life long issues that do not let them lead normal lives.

Why?

First of all, snake bites are a rural issue - not an urban issue, and therefore India really doesn’t care as much as it should in education and other methods of snake bite prevention.

We do not have proper storage facilities. Being still largely an agro based economy with small farmers who store produce in their houses - this attracts rodents, and that attracts snakes, and when cornered of stepped upon, the snakes bite. Research shows that most snake bites in India happen below the ankles - which means people have stepped on the snake, without proper footwear.

The dry bite phenomenon is also very interesting and contributes a lot towards snake bite fatalities. As I said before, over 50% of snake bites are dry bites - no venom injected.

When people in Rural India get bitten, they do not seek proper medical care but run to witch or ayurveda doctors. They do mantras, apply some herbs - and in 50-60% of the cases, the people are “cured” because they haven’t been envenomed. This in turn propels the myth that the local witch doctor can cure snake bites.

There is also another very interesting research that shows that more Hindus get bitten by snakes than anyone else, especially by Kraits!

This is because it was found that Muslims and Christians in rural areas tend to sleep on raised surfaces - on small cots, where as Hindus sleep on mats on the ground - and this causes more snake bites, especially by Kraits which are not as intelligent as Cobras and tend to explore beddings!

I grew up in proper proper snake country where all the big four are very common. I went to a school called Rishi Valley, where baby snakes (baby snakes are equally venomous as adults, and more dangerous as they are faster and also don’t have the maturity of not biting unnecessarily as adults) would get into our shoes. Every morning when we were woken up at 5 am, especially in a few houses (hostels) that were more snake prone, we’d have to check our shoes to make sure no snakes would be in them. And this is something that we all did, starting from 4th / 5th standard - as groggy as we were at 5 am. We were also taught other ways to prevent snake bites. Not many days would pass without sighting snakes, and many a times, Cobras and rat snakes have slithered into our class rooms.

There has never been a case of snake bite fatality in school, and I think only one or two cases of children being bitten by a snake in the entirety of Rishi Valleys existence - and it was because the child had gone up to the snake and handled it.

Point is snakes have far better things to do than bite people. If you see a snake, best to leave it be, and it will just go away.

It is a criminal offence in India to kill and to even handle a snake under the Wildlife (Protection) Act- 1972, even if you do so in your house - you are liable to be arrested. Killing / Handling of snakes must be done only when absolutely unavoidable. And in some cases albeit rare ones, it is, sadly unavoidable.

[tazmaan]

Originally Posted by thirdmainroad

Every morning when we were woken up at 5 am, especially in a few houses (hostels) that were more snake prone, we’d have to check our shoes to make sure no snakes would be in them.

Point is snakes have far better things to do than bite people. If you see a snake, best to leave it be, and it will just go away.

The basic awareness of checking shoes was taught to me on the first day of my orientation in Australia as a student. They have black widow spider which has a bad reputation. After watching the video which kind of gave me a shoe fobia, I always check my shoes. I have passed on that knowledge to my kids now.

I have just constructed a farmhouse in a wooded area and am yet to encounter a snake in the house (touch wood) but I discuss the scenario on what to do if we spot one. We stayed there for a month this summer and my younger one came running back and told me there is something in my shoe. Luckily it was a crab but he checked before wearing.

Everyone I have spoken to in our farmhouse group say kill the snake and take it to the hospital if bitten. I am aware the anti-venom in India works on big four so why kill the snake.

What happens if your are bitten and don't know the species of the snake but the doctor administers anti-venom?

[thirdmainroad]

Originally Posted by tazmaan

Everyone I have spoken to in our farmhouse group say kill the snake and take it to the hospital if bitten. I am aware the anti-venom in India works on big four so why kill the snake.

What happens if your are bitten and don't know the species of the snake but the doctor administers anti-venom?

It is best to know without doubt what snake has bitten you. There are many snakes that resemble poisonous ones and it’s best to know for sure.

There are loads of times when I’ve gotten bitten by keel backs, wolf snakes and others, only because I’d go and pester them and try to handle them.. and I’ve never killed them and dragged them along, because I know my snakes a little. I have however once killed a rat snake after I got bit because I stepped on it, for they very closely resemble a cobra and are also very fast - don’t offer you time for a photo shoot.

Perhaps it’s an old law, before the advent of mobile phone cameras. But even if I have a phone, and I get bit by a snake I even slightly doubt is poisonous, I’d kill it to be sure. Even though we have a poly venom, it’s better if the species is identified without doubt and also the size, etc.

Though I believe I am an environmentalist and a conservationist, we also must be pragmatic about certain things.

Most people in rural India will kill snakes upon sight, even if they know they are not poisonous. I used to think that the majority being Hindus, very close to pagans, would love and respect the environment and it’s beings, but after what I’ve seen in villages and sensitive wildlife areas, it is not the case. We’ll kill snakes, and deer and boar and lizards - even tigers and leopards if given quarter a chance.

Anti venom is made from venom. So when used when not absolutely necessary it will cause envenomation, even death! It’s not first aid for snake bites, only symptomatic and that too only if life support measures fail.

[rrsteer]

Originally Posted by thirdmainroad

There has never been a case of snake bite fatality in school, and I think only one or two cases of children being bitten by a snake in the entirety of Rishi Valleys existence - and it was because the child had gone up to the snake and handled it.

Hi, can you please provide more details on the precautions taken by kids in Rishi Valley? In general too, can you advise what should one do to avoid snakes or a snake bite. I ask, because we got a house in a rural area and snakes are common in our property.

[deathwalkr]

Meanwhile, this video came up in my newsfeed and has me feeling all sorts of things :(

https://twitter.com/ns_subhash/statu...47393808875520

6year old boy "handling" a king cobra!

Just why...

[thirdmainroad]

Originally Posted by rrsteer

In general too, can you advise what should one do to avoid snakes or a snake bite. I ask, because we got a house in a rural area and snakes are common in our property.

Keep the immediate surroundings of your house free of heavy grass and other plants.

The most important thing is to minimise prey (rats/frogs) in or near households. And therefore point number 1 - keep grass and plants at minimum, or make sure you don’t have frogs and toads attracted to the plants - this can be done by correct watering. In farm houses, tough to keep rats at bay, but do what you can to minimise rats in the house - store food properly etc, use rodent control measures if and where possible. If you have heavy rodent presence - Dashshund dogs work wonders - they are by far the best rat killers and great snake spotters as well.

Care must be taken in evening outside the house on pathways - snakes - the big four are mostly nocturnal and start coming out to get some heat for energy in the evenings. They are then sluggish and don’t slither away as quickly as they will do otherwise.

Keep surroundings well lit. Try to walk with shoes outside - difficult when you are at /close to home. Avoid walking into areas with heavy undergrowth, if you have to, walk hard to send vibrations out.

Be very careful with firewood in the evening, if you do use it - firewood heaps are a great place for the tiny but deadly saw scaled viper to be hiding in.

Avoid sleeping on the floor. Use a cot.

Teach children to let snakes be. No need to run after them with sticks or stones.

Have dogs, they are good snake spotters. But we have lost a few inquisitive dogs to snake bites over the years unfortunately. The dogs will sometimes go and try to play/provoke a snake. We currently have an Indian rock python on the property, and a favourite cat of ours used to take immense pleasure in whacking it on its head when found basking - and one day the cat disappeared. We are 99% sure the python got it.

Be very, very wary of Russel vipers. Learn how to identify this witch of a snake. It’s a nasty snake, and the biggest issue with the Russell’s viper is it’s an ambush predator - it’s really good at camouflaging itself, will blend into to dry surroundings perfectly. And since it knows it’s so good at camouflage - it tends to stay curled up in one spot, even if it knows someone is walking towards it - for it thinks you won’t see it. You usually won’t and trample it, leading to a bite. This is the one snake that we *were* not to hesitant to kill, for it usually tends to have favourite spots and will come back even if relocated, and also if relocated will usually cause havoc in the new area. We now don’t kill them because we noticed that their population has declined very very heavily and instead relocate deep in a wooded area.

If a snake enters the house - give it a little time and space and it will leave by itself.

We have lived in that place for 40+ years, my aunt and uncle still stay there, I have spent a lot of time there, and there has not been a snake bite, though we have had oh so very many close (not threatening) encounters. Basic precautions, and you are good!

Stuff like dousing doorways with Kerosene etc like what that idiot Vava Shankar (May the devil take him) doesn’t work and is not needed.

I strongly recommend you get a copy of Snakes of India, The Field Guide by Romulus Whitaker and Ashok captain. It’s a must have if you live in snake country!

Oopsie double post! Mods, could you delete my previous post please? Thank you!

[haria]

Originally Posted by thirdmainroad

He is NOT amazing but rather a complete idiot .....Are we all by and large such an idiot society so far from the truth and reality that we make low lives into real life heroes??

Well, not quite.

He might not have a formal education / higher education about snakes.

He may use primitive methods and may not use any protection while catching snakes, which is highly risky… (I agree this is is a bit foolish to attempt to catch snakes without protection).There are many detractors also - who don't agree to his methods, but even they don't call him a low life or such terms what you used!.

But make no mistake, to many many households in south kerala, he is a real life hero - not just a so called media influencer or internet star or an armchair analyst! He catches snakes from houses and buildings and releases them mostly unharmed in the forest. Most of the time he is accompanied by forest office officals also. There are many forest officials in Kerala (in the Ranni / Konni /Pathanmthitta forest ranges) who wait for him to arrive to catch difficult snakes - especially the King Cobra.

He sure does some showboating - especially in the Kaumdai TV channel…I don't fully agree to his doing these stunts… but just because he does that, calling him a low life and a complete idiot is a bit too biased. Is your opinion of him formed only based on watching his shows or have you interacted with any families /houses where he has rescued/caught countless snakes ?

To his credit, I don't think other than himself, anybody else in the crowd ever have got bitten by a snake he has handled!


A quick google search threw up these links…

Vava Suresh- class at Kerala Police Academy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPz260jpzSQ

Vava Suresh giving training to the forest officers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwuL1ubneHc

I don't think these govt. departments will allow a total idiot and low life to conduct these awareness sessions for their officers.

[thirdmainroad]

I’ve met many internationally respected and renowned herpetologists and conservationists who are completely appalled by Vava Suresh, and also the Kerala government boosting him and getting him to “train” it’s personnel. There are many, many local snake rescuers who do a much better job than that low life wanna be celebrity.

[Dr Alpha]

There is no need for killing and taking the snake to the hospital after snake bite for treatment. But I strongly advocate to HANDLE poisonous snakes if identified and as Third main road mentioned Russel vipers are the most dangerous snake and the risk of death is much higher in Russel viper bite. Saw scaled vipers are also equally dangerous. We have simple basic tests to differentiate dry bite and venomous bite. Anti venom would not be administered even if you were bitten by a Russel viper and take it to the hospital unless and untill tests suggest the presence of venom in your circulation.

If bitten by a snake,

THINKS TO DO :

1) wash the area thoroughly with soap and running tap water.

2) Immediately remove rings, metti, bangle, watch, any other ornaments or religious ropes(kairu) which will be difficult to remove once the swelling starts near the bitten area


3) Immediately reach a hospital equipped with ICU and anti venom ( do not wait for symptoms to start )


4) Do not panic as it will increase your heart rate and fasten the circulation of venom in your system

THINGS NOT TO DO :

1) Do not Panick

2) Do not wait for symptoms to start, reach the hospital as soon as possible

2) Don’t drive yourself to hospital as you may feel dizzy or pass out

3) Don’t apply tourniquet or tie the area

4) Don’t slash or open the wound with knife

5) Do not try and suck the venom out

6) Do not take any painkillers like ibuprofen diclofenac or aspirin

7) Do not drink alcohol as painkillers or for fear

8) DO NOT BRING A SNAKE ALIVE TO THE HOSPITAL

Snake rescuing is a joke in India. Most of the rescued snakes are released in nearby lakes or rural areas which in turn affects the population surrounding that area.

As someone mentioned in earlier post there are more than 50,000 recorded snake bite death in India every year.

But the actual numbers were more than 1,50,000 according to the health inspectors visiting hospitals for data and statistics collection of patient and diseases. Most of the rural cases don’t visit a hospital or couldn’t afford the expensive ICU charges.

Even patients who survives have life long symptoms and complications and couldn’t lead a healthy life.

[jessie007]

Originally Posted by thirdmainroad

Even herpetologists such as Rom Whitaker, who I know personally will tell you that if a snake does bite someone, it is best to kill it and take it along for proper identification.

Fact is over 50% of snake bites are what are called dry bites. A venomous snake like a cobra will bite you, properly puncture your skin, but will not inject any venom into you. This is because snakes conserve their venom for prey, and do not like to use it for defence unless absolutely necessary. It takes a snake a lot of energy to to make venom and they are very careful with it. So therefore, anti venom is not given unless you start showing symptoms of envenomation.

Research shows that most snake bites in India happen below the ankles - which means people have stepped on the snake, without proper footwear.

Very interesting points, even for someone living in a city - as I have seen a snake or two when traveling in country.

One question - Does wearing relatively thicker cotton socks (jockey sports) with regular walking shoes, reduce the risk of snake puncturing skin & perhaps releasing venom??

[subuiyer]

Originally Posted by thirdmainroad

... we’d have to check our shoes to make sure no snakes would be in them. And this is something that we all did, starting from 4th / 5th standard ...

Reading your shoe story, I cannot help recall my experience, no snakes in my story though.



When I was in my 5th std (late 1980s), around 6 am I put my socked foot into school shoes and something wriggled inside. Instinctively pulled out and inverted - a reddish looking scorpion dropped to the floor. Later that day my teacher helped establish the connection - Hottentotta Tamulus - found in the only 1 of 2 Tamilian houses in those days in Mehsana (GJ) town. Row house complex bordering sesame and mustard fields where black/red scorpions were not uncommon (snakes too were always around). Ever since this day, any closed footwear I intuitively dab a couple of times inverted before wearing them.



Another morning about a decade ago, something hard scrapped against my toes inside the sock I had just pulled over my foot. On unwrapping another wriggler fell out - a 5-inch centipede (scolopendra dehaani). This was amusing because we lived on the 4th floor of an apartment building in Mumbai and the sock had been though a full cycle machine wash previous day. Ever since in the habit of turning clothes inside out and back before I wear them.

The positive is despite both these close encounters, I have lived to write this post.

[Revvatron]

Originally Posted by Dr Alpha

[b]
If bitten by a snake,

THINKS TO DO :

3) Immediately reach a hospital equipped with ICU and anti venom ( do not wait for symptoms to start )

THINGS NOT TO DO :

3) Don’t apply tourniquet or tie the area

Couple of questions, how do we check whether hospital has anti-venom. Is it something that can be checked on that hospital's website or we can just assume most of multi-specialty hospitals like Apollo will already have it.

Also, I always assumed we have to tie a knot because it stops the poison from reaching to other parts. I guess my knowledge is from movies. Is there any other way around this.

[Dr Alpha]

Originally Posted by Revvatron

Couple of questions, how do we check whether hospital has anti-venom. Is it something that can be checked on that hospital's website or we can just assume most of multi-specialty hospitals like Apollo will already have it.

Also, I always assumed we have to tie a knot because it stops the poison from reaching to other parts. I guess my knowledge is from movies. Is there any other way around this.

The only way is to Google the hospital number and enquiring or enquiring beforehand for emergencies. Multispeciality hospitals like apollo will definitely have ASV but it’s better to check once by call before going and enquiring.

Earlier guidelines were to apply tourniquet or tie a little above the spot tighty. But this led to total avascularisation of the area depending upon the type of toxin and in some cases necrosis developed due to over tightness of tourniquet because of improper tying technique. So the latest guideline is to immobilise the limb and avail emergency services ASAP.

[mallumowgli]

Thanks for the tips, Dr

However - confused by the second sentence. You strongly advocate to handle poisonous snakes? Or is that a typo error?

Originally Posted by Dr Alpha

[b] But I strongly advocate to HANDLE poisonous snakes if identified and as Third main road mentioned Russel vipers are the most dangerous snake and the risk of death is much higher in Russel viper bite.

[thirdmainroad]

I think the good Dr meant do not handle snakes!

The Russell’s Viper does contribute the most to fatalities and pain in India and throughout south east Asia. Not because they are the most venomous but because we are most susceptible to their bites since they tend to stay put and don’t run away when they know something big is approaching.

The vipers venom is made up of hemeotoxins - toxins that affect the blood and tissues. Death is usually caused by renal failure. I’ve seen viper bites - they literally melt muscle. The kraits and the cobra on the other inject neurotoxins, that affect nerves and nerve signals - death is usually caused by respiratory failure.

The kraits are the most venomous of the big 4, and they are also a funny snake. During the day, they are lethargic, slow moving, easy to handle. At night, they go berserk. Aggressive, fast. Research suggests it’s due to the fact that they hunt during the night. Also, a kraits bite is usually initially completely asymptomatic - you’ll have the fangs puncture you, but there won’t be much pain or local swelling. So people tend to think they are fine. In a few hours, is when you start feeling uneasy. I’ve heard of cases where people don’t even realise they have been bit by kraits!