[noopster]

Originally Posted by drmohitg

Random thought but for people who decide to come back for parents, once your parents have left you for their heavenly abode, do you consider going back? Or consider encouraging your kids to look at the west? It would be interesting to look at that aspect. I am sure most people would be rather settled (happily or otherwise) by then and may not have the energy left to relocate again.

I want to weigh in here since taking care of old parents was one of the factors in my moving back. And it was good I did too when I did (2019) since my kids lost 2 out of 3 grandparents in the next two years and the third had a bad scare in COVID that she thankfully survived.

In hindsight it was a good decision to return since I would be stuck in New Zealand because of their crazy lockdown restrictions. And having returned, I made the decision to stick on and moved to roles within (and later outside) my organisation that allowed me to continue in India. So on the whole I am happy.

But that does NOT mean that those who stay abroad with old parents in India somehow made the wrong decision. It's a very personal decision and one that needs to be taken with the enthusiastic consent of all involved, kids especially. Personally I think that kids 10 and under are quite flexible (my elder one was almost 12 and still sometimes expresses disappointment at not being able to continue staying on, since she loved it there, younger one really didn't care). In the tween/teenager segment it can get really disruptive, especially for kids who are born and raised there and don't know any other place to call home.

I also think that people who move back under family pressure harbour some resentment against their parents which doesn't make for a great relationship overall. Maybe I am just generalising though.

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by noopster

Personally I think that kids 10 and under are quite flexible (my elder one was almost 12 and still sometimes expresses disappointment at not being able to continue staying on, since she loved it there, younger one really didn't care). In the tween/teenager segment it can get really disruptive, especially for kids who are born and raised there and don't know any other place to call home.

This is absolutely true, my sister and I moved to India from the US in the mid 1990s when we were in our early teens. My sister was ok with the move and I was strongly against it. It was really disruptive and she lost a year at school (due huge difference in syllabus between US and India board exams). We were eventually able to adapt to the change since my parents had put in a lot effort teaching us to read and write Hindi(by brining books from India to teach us) in the US and also bring our maths skill up to the level of India.

My cousins who are nearly the same age also made the move to India in the same time period but were unable to cope and had to move back to the US in 1-2 years.

[ajmat]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

\. We were eventually able to adapt to the change since my parents had put in a lot effort teaching us to read and write Hindi(by brining books from India to teach us) in the US and also bring our maths skill up to the level of India.

My cousins who are nearly the same age also made the move to India in the same time period but were unable to cope and had to move back to the US in 1-2 years.

Same thing happened to be in the mid 1970's. I was a bright student (supposedly and got into Grammer School by merit) however, my parents forced me to move to India. I struggled with the syllabus as it was different as also trying to grasped Hindi. Being a "coconut" did not help either. I hated it.

Bumbled through engineering and went back to the UK. After 5 years of studying and working, I came back. However much one tries, you might make great acquaintances and not many friends which one normally makes during ones formative years. Things have changed as my family made life long friends in the community in the 1960's and my 83 year old mother just went to visit the few who remain. There were different community events like the Womens Institute which just does not happen.

Forward wind to late 1990's, I returned to India, it took me a long time to fit in. If I had not found a job in a US company with a more open culture, my life would have been a train wreck. Thankfully, my wife developed the social side of things and now I enjoy staying here.

I would hate to be sick and grow old in the UK. I do love visiting. Each time I visit London, a city that I love, one finds you need to be cautious due to the petty crime increase. There are areas which you never want to visit in various parts of the UK.

My take is that being abroad is great when starting out in life but if you move, do so before your children turn 10 or don't move until they finish University and are independent.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by drmohitg

Random thought but for people who decide to come back for parents, once your parents have left you for their heavenly abode, do you consider going back? Or consider encouraging your kids to look at the west? It would be interesting to look at that aspect. I am sure most people would be rather settled (happily or otherwise) by then and may not have the energy left to relocate again.

Well, this question implies that the decision to come back is a prison sentence, that is lifted only when the parents pass away. Being around parents in their old age was not just responsibility, but also a joy and wonder. To watch them and care for them in their final decades was a very important phase of growing old for me. I wouldn't exchange those 20 years for anything if I had to do it all over again.

One should never plan the decision to come back as a temporary phase or prison sentence. That will make your life miserable, just like a prison sentence. Once I decided to come back, I couldn't wait to come back, I planned for years preparing for the transition, so that I could successfully re-integrate back with least pain.

Usually when parents pass away, you would be in your 50s, well settled in life. It would be a desperate move to go back and start all over again, when all the odds are against you. One should never look forward to that.

Do I expect my son to do what I did? Not really. It has to be his decision. My older son is an USC and could easily move to USA someday. So, I will plan my retirement without any expectations, as the Geeta says "Karmanye Vadhikaraste, Ma phaleshou Kada chana". Besides, I have the lifelong responsibility of caring for my younger son who is autistic.

[Janus]

Originally Posted by GandalfTheGrey

That being said, I know I'll miss the Netherlands for sure while I leave as I love it, irrespective of whether the country loves me. People mock me as I'm one of those who learn Dutch not to get a passport, but just for the love of it. I engage in some sort of volunteering work to give back something to the society and that's the love for the Netherlands. So let me make some great memories here while I still can, so that there are some nice stories/memories to tell to my kids and grand kids.
Cheers!

One who learns the language for the love of it, volunteers to give back. You are the best migrant any country would love to have. Yet you are having doubts on whether to stay or not. If only most migrants think like you.

Irrespective of the opinions here, I think you will make the right decision on your own. All the best.

[download2live]

Originally Posted by GandalfTheGrey

So I just want to ask the bhpians, many are/would've been in the same boat as I am, on what pointers did you consider if you are/were in a similar position to choose to move out of India completely (or) return to India immediately before starting a family(or)return to India after settling the kids abroad? I know this is purely a question of personal preference, but your points of considerations would be of great help in my decision making. Thank you in advance!

Cheers!

"Most debates are not really debates; They are two people with different life experiences talking over each other."

I am afraid you will not find a single answer here. People have different backgrounds.

Some come from well off families with a huge network of well off relatives all within a single major city.

Some come from families who are on a journey from not so well off to a stable middle class level, establishing themselves in a major city far from the humble small towns.

Some come from families where they already have a good number of relatives are settled abroad.

Some are individuals with top notch skills and are working in FAANG level companies, where they have freedom to choose international relocation whenever they want.

You will hear different answers from all of them. Maybe the answers/replies which resonate most with you are a hint?

My two cents: When given a choice, always take one which moves you ahead in life. My dad did so and I can see the difference in the life outcomes between me and my cousins.

And I am a below average good for nothing kind of fellow.

Leaving a link from an excellent movie "Cinema Paradiso".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEZoWIsie1o

[benbsb29]

Originally Posted by download2live

"Most debates are not really debates; They are two people with different life experiences talking over each other."

I am afraid you will not find a single answer here. People have different backgrounds.

Perfectly summed up, and couldn't have put it any better.

[Mystic]

I had shared my thoughts on this thread multiple times. I want to share one thought that has been bugging me for quite some time.

How are different generations handling kids when sent abroad. In my personal case, am I at an advantage or at a disadvantage when compared to others?. I went to USA in 90s and now retired and settled in India. I have seen half of the countries on this planet due to the nature of my consulting job. My next generation who happens to be my only child is now settled in USA as a faculty in top university. Recently he bought a multi million dollar home which is more than 120 years old and is exempted tax by USA. He loves USA and owns a piece of the history now wrt house.

Now is the million dollar question of me shuttling between India and USA and how long I can do it with out any disruption? My parents never adjusted in USA even though they both are highly educated and my father worked as Chief Engineer with Government of India. I finally gave up persuading them as I am their only son.

I personally have more cousins in USA than in India. Even after having worked in USA for decades, I still don't call it my home and look forward to my next flight to India. My son says he will never regret if he is given an option to never visit India in his life time.

I see a huge problem still in my generation and finally this issue is resolved at my next generation wrt calling a home abroad as permanent place for whatever reasons.

I have seen many old couples especially in Hyderabad where I have seen at close quarters are in a sad situation especially when one of the partners is no more with children settled abroad. Life becomes lonely and a burden in spite of God giving all the financial security.

[noopster]

Originally Posted by Mystic

I personally have more cousins in USA than in India. Even after having worked in USA for decades, I still don't call it my home and look forward to my next flight to India. My son says he will never regret if he is given an option to never visit India in his life time.

You have your answer right there. It's usually the first generation immigrant who struggles with the dilemma of where to retire. Second generation onwards are fully integrated.

I see a huge problem still in my generation and finally this issue is resolved at my next generation wrt calling a home abroad as permanent place for whatever reasons.

Why is it a problem? You yourself said you can't wait to come back to India. It's home for you. I know very few people in our generation (I'm almost 50) whose parents have settled happily abroad with their children in their old age. There are notable exceptions but the vast majority have preferred living on their own in India with extended family supporting them or, as is getting more common, shifting to assisted-living facilities. I don't see anything wrong in it: they are happy being here and the separation from their children, though painful, is something they live with.

I have seen many old couples especially in Hyderabad where I have seen at close quarters are in a sad situation especially when one of the partners is no more with children settled abroad. Life becomes lonely and a burden in spite of God giving all the financial security.

Unfortunately the reality is that if they were with their kids at least one of them (parents or children) would be miserable!

[Mystic]

Originally Posted by noopster

Unfortunately the reality is that if they were with their kids at least one of them (parents or children) would be miserable!

Thanks a lot for addressing my issue and stating the facts. It helps to know the reality on how others are handling the same dilemma.

Misery is anyways inevitable to all humans if we look from a philosophical point of view as there is no such thing as enlightenment to come out of misery. Humans always want problems. If there are no problems, they feel that they are not living. Sorry for talking something off topic quoting my grandfather UG. UG went to USA to deliver theosophical lectures before our independence. He was at peace with the world as he did research all his life on human mind and my son is also at peace as he has done research on artificial mind ( PhD in AI ). I think the generations who are confused and lost are my father and myself.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U._G._Krishnamurti

[Streetracer_372]

Being a long time lurker on this thread and having read through almost all of the arguments presented here, I was wondering if moving out makes sense if your parents do not have a problem in living abroad even for extended periods of time as is the case with mine.

My dad being someone who regrets the decision to come back from an EU country to take care of his dad and my mom always admiring the life of her NRI friends are very favourable towards me settling abroad. Also, emigrating is almost always economically favourable for someone who is not in IT which comprises most of the high paying jobs in India. Moreover the advantages such as better work life balance, less population etc which still exist even when times are not that good for immigrants to the west keep emigration as a lucrative proposition.

Coming to my own case, almost everyone in my family of my generation has already the left the country. My hometown is famous for having an NRI population as mainstream which leaves many residential areas empty. Also, even in my school, many of my schoolmates are already abroad within less than two years of graduating.

While I agree that most of these are anecdotal events, they do present a case for reasons why most people who have the chance to leave permanently do end up leaving.

[narayans80]

Originally Posted by download2live

"Most debates are not really debates; They are two people with different life experiences talking over each other."
I am afraid you will not find a single answer here. People have different backgrounds.

Correct. And you shouldn't be looking for answers here either. Leaving aside work background, the personal situation of each one is different and so is the individual (and his/her spouse) mindset. Lot of which cannot be written in a public forum.

I remember a post from Samurai a long time back. You will not be able to move unless you 'hate' your current place.

The motivation for immigration (whichever direction) only lasts on a short-medium term, not on a long term. Statements like "I'll move to India in 5 years if this and this happens" make no sense. I have a close friend from university, who has been saying he'll settle in India for the last 20 years, only on his recent trip did he admit he isn't moving back in the near term.

Originally Posted by Foxbat

This is absolutely true, my sister and I moved to India from the US in the mid 1990s when we were in our early teens.

Originally Posted by ajmat

Same thing happened to be in the mid 1970's..

Feel sorry for you guys, all this happened at a time your parents didn't know the struggles of moving late.

Fortunately by 2010s there is internet and loads of information documenting the struggles of moving back with kids. There are also IGCSE and IB board schools that soften the transition.

We moved in 2017 when my elder was getting into 3rd grade. It still took 2 academic years to adjust even in an IB school.

Originally Posted by Mystic

Now is the million dollar question of me shuttling between India and USA and how long I can do it with out any disruption?

A couple I know in close quarters are shuttling in their 80s The mileage would vary depending on their physical fitness to handle the weather transitions and mental strength to do so.

How are different generations handling kids when sent abroad

Isn't this a direct result of their own exposure and mindset?

My mother wouldn't even consider moving to another location in the same city. An old friend's father said he wouldn't come and visit his son in Hyderabad from Karaikudi, when he was in his 50s.

I see a huge problem still in my generation and finally this issue is resolved at my next generation wrt calling a home abroad as permanent place for whatever reasons.

Haven't we seen kids and parents argue this at a city level? This keeps moving from generation to generation where they find their true calling.

Originally Posted by Streetracer_372

I was wondering if moving out makes sense if your parents do not have a problem in living abroad even for extended periods of time as is the case with mine.

Assuming your parents are game. It would still depend on the policies of the adopted country, whether and how they allow you to sponsor your parents as dependents.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by Mystic

Even after having worked in USA for decades, I still don't call it my home and look forward to my next flight to India. My son says he will never regret if he is given an option to never visit India in his life time.

You don't need to look at Indian families abroad, families living across Indian states also can have these situations (I wouldn't call them 'issues'.)

My parents were born in a different state, they moved to Bangalore for work in the 70s. I was born here. I have no confusion about where home is- it's Bangalore, and I'll feel good whenever I hear Kannada being spoken. Nothing wrong with their home state it's a great place, or their language (I understand it, but don't speak it), but I'd hate to move there. I'm grateful my folks didn't put any guilt on me to consider their home state 'home'. The cultural differences are huge, less so for youngsters these days, but even for my generation, the differences in upbringing and outlook between my cousins and I are considerable.

Again, I'm grateful my parents didn't try to impose all that on me. That would have resulted in some split personality issues. So I think it's unfair to move to another country and somehow expect your children to think of their parents' country as home.

[Mystic]

Originally Posted by am1m

Again, I'm grateful my parents didn't try to impose all that on me. That would have resulted in some split personality issues. So I think it's unfair to move to another country and somehow expect your children to think of their parents' country as home.

Very valid point. But as Indians, unconsciously, we force our opinions on our kids to the extent of choosing their career between medical school or an engineering school. There is a separate thread on that also in our forum.

I am out of the discussion when my wife and my son have serious clash of opinions on USA and India. My son says that he is a professor now and we should not forget that. He mentors others now . My wife’s argument is that we are genetically tied to our roots and this goes to the hormonal level. One example my wife gives is that my son is a vegan as we are all vegans in our family. He has a choice to be non vegan ( he is a black belt in martial arts in USA ) if he wants but he chose to be vegan. No one forced him. USA is a land of immigrants and nothing wrong in choosing that your home but one should not forget the roots.

My only interest is on how different generations like in my family of 4 generations look at emigration as an Indian. What factors have made an impact at different points in time over the last century for their decisions wrt to their kids.

I am sorry if I am going off topic on OP.

[neon115]

I have replied to many posts in this thread, wanted to share my own.

I am a first generation immigrant, I recently acquired citizenship in this country which meant giving up on Indian citizenship and applying for OCI.

The process of applying for OCI and an evisa (OCI takes upto 3 months and partner needs to travel asap) reminded me how painful it is to deal with any government agency in India.

Had to visit the OCI centre three times, BLS and Consulate website have conflicting information. One application accepted by BLS was rejected by consulate. Another time they made a mistake in submitting the application which resulted in wrong date.

Even when applying evisa, the application crashed multiple times. Error on first page is only displayed when you are on last page. They require information of 2 generations of parents for both you and your spouse. Religious information is mandatory with no option of Atheist or Non Religious.

It was easier for me to apply for citizenship and passport in the foreign country vs getting things dealt with Indian Government.

Its scenarios like these which make me realize that it was a correct decision to move out.

Thankfully I emigrated to a country where my parents can stay with me for a very long time even on visitor visa. I am hoping to emigrate them over here in near future. They are also ready to emigrate in next few years.

Personally for me, grass IS greener on the other side. It will be monumental task and an extreme decision for me to move back to India.