[dailydriver]

What would the new proposal mandating Tax Clearance Certificate for Indian emigrants entail, especially those at the two ends of income spectrum: HNIs who may have some unresolved issues with the tax authorities and blue collar workers without any exposure to direct taxes?

[RaviK]

Originally Posted by PGA

These days hearing from quite a few older NRI acquaintances, in generally complaining tone, how..
. Wonder what to make out of it.

In Australia, few of the reasons I've observed (working in Australia for past few years) -
- Tremendous pressure on housing (increased immigration perceived to be the primary driver), resulting in an undercurrent of resentment against more people coming in.
- More and more stories of student distress (probably proportionate to increased intake), and desperate appeals from immigrants for help have become a frequent phenomenon (as per old-timers it wasn't like that in Australia 10-15 years ago)
- Increased numbers of immigration frauds by indians coming to light, create unease in older immigrants. As per them, not only this affects indian community's influence(seen mostly as law-abiding, no-trouble folks), but also creates unease in equations with locals.
- Heavily increased numbers have encouraged some folks to bring the home practices to Australian shores, drawing rebukes and pushback from locals (perceived as image-tarnishing by old-timers). Google "Harris park burnouts" or "Harris park stalls dispute" for some examples.
- And of course, sometimes just the plain old shut-the-door-after-me thought process!!

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by RaviK

(as per old-timers it wasn't like that in Australia 10-15 years ago)
!

Well, I remember particularly racist attacks against Indians in Australia almost exactly 15 years ago - in 2009. If recent observations from my friends are anything to go by, things are nowhere nearly as bad right now. If anything, many feel Australia is more welcoming than much of the Western world including Canada at this point.

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted by dailydriver

Tax Clearance Certificate

Not all residents leaving India require tax clearance certificates, reports Moneycontrol

The ministry added that only in certain cases would an individual need to obtain such a tax clearance:

-Where the person is involved in serious financial irregularities and his presence is necessary in investigation of cases under the Income-tax Act or the Wealth-tax Act and it is likely that a tax demand will be raised against him.

-Where the person has direct tax arrears exceeding Rs 10 lakh which have not been stayed by any authority.

"Further, a person can be asked to obtain a tax clearance certificate only after recording the reasons for the same and after taking approval from the Principal Chief Commissioner of Income-tax or Chief Commissioner of Income-tax," the ministry said in a statement.

[GandalfTheGrey]

Hello Bhpians,

Some background: We (my wife and I) moved to the Netherlands last year for a period of 2 years. We have no kids as of now. Our plan initially was to work here for 2 years and move back to India. Being the only kid to my parents, I've to come back home to take care of my parents, in their final years at least, also would be great have my kid grow in presence of his/her grandparents. I've also told my wife that it's our duty to take care of her parents in their final years.

My situation: With series of unfortunate events that happened in our country last few weeks, there's a serious question/doubt in our minds whether our kid/kids will be really safe back in India. I know even western society isn't fully safe, but it's definitely better for both kid's mental and physical health. I understand with right parenting mindset, kid's mental health can be managed much better in India, but when kid goes to school/college it's beyond our control to monitor every minute. We may be even overthinking things as we both(my wife and I) are born and brought up in India and have lived here for 30 years before moving out. I also get this feeling that how can I run away from such problems back home, but instead do something, however futile it may be, towards making things a bit better. Now what will I do to make things better? I've no idea as of now.

On the other hand, we have many people who moved out, recently and long back, saying we're making a mistake going back to India, instead
use this golden opportunity to move out of India. One thing I consistently notice among people who have moved out is that they're stuck in time. Such people think their country is still how it is when they moved out. A really good example of this phenomenon is when I see Hindustani Surinamese community in Netherlands who are still more "Indians" than many contemporary Indians themselves. They're in Netherlands for 2-4 generations, still they have strong reservations against many things which are long gone, at least from urban India. So, I always take the advice of people who moved out quite sometime back with a huge pinch of salt.

I love the Netherlands, and the country has treated me very well, and I've grown a lot as a person too. I love the people here too for their honest/direct/simple nature. Am I accepted as one of them? No. Do I care? No As I have no personal fascination/life's dream to settle here or anywhere in western countries. I was happy back in India, and equally happy now in the Netherlands. I've also seen couple of kids in my family who were born abroad face this identity crisis. They're neither able to be identified with the locals abroad, nor with their family back home. So the safety concerns and the difficulties a kid which is will be 1st generation growing outside its country, face. is starting to become a conundrum for us now.

My question/request: So I just want to ask the bhpians, many are/would've been in the same boat as I am, on what pointers did you consider if you are/were in a similar position to choose to move out of India completely (or) return to India immediately before starting a family(or)return to India after settling the kids abroad? I know this is purely a question of personal preference, but your points of considerations would be of great help in my decision making. Thank you in advance!

Cheers!

[ninjatalli]

This is not going to be an easy response. Every nation has opportunities to provide and there are risks in every nation. I won't go there; you are best to make that decision. Also every (overseas) family's situation is different; so I don't think one can apply the inferences from the examples observed in their networks to themselves.

Originally Posted by GandalfTheGrey

My question/request: So I just want to ask the bhpians, many are/would've been in the same boat as I am, on what pointers did you consider if you are/were in a similar position to choose to move out of India completely (or) return to India immediately before starting a family(or)return to India after settling the kids abroad? I know this is purely a question of personal preference, but your points of considerations would be of great help in my decision making. Thank you in advance!

Cheers!

I'll respond to the above question as I have been in such a situation almost a decade ago and took the call to come back home; leaving a lot on the table. The key pointers that worked for me

- Primary cause was personal (family) reasons that advocated a better situation if I was based out of India instead of the US.
- Opportunity to move up on the professional front into more challenging roles (in my area of expertise). Although I could have got them in the US too.
- Back then, I seriously believed getting back to the US/EU was always going to be on the table (possible in my line of work)
- After having a child recently, I have left new overseas options; simply for the fact that he's getting such an amazing childhood with his grandparents around. Plus their health is so much better with him in their daily life. That wouldn't be the case if we moved overseas.

-----------

I think you need to take a decision based on your own personal and professional conditions; and what will work for you in the coming years. I would definitely say India is (still) a great place to live and work in the current context; especially if you are in the right place(s).

[GandalfTheGrey]

Thank you very much for your reply.

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

This is not going to be an easy response...

Cannot agree more. This is indeed quite a tricky situation and there is absolutely no one size fits all solution. There are lots of variables involved, especially personal preferences, in such decisions.

I would definitely say India is (still) a great place to live and work in the current context; especially if you are in the right place(s).

This is what I echo too. I strongly think this is a gross understatement which many don't realize, or realize too late after moving abroad. I come across a lot of youngsters/mid-life professionals leaving a good life here to settle for a mediocre life abroad, and regretting later. All mostly because of societal pressure to move abroad, leading to a decision not backed by proper homework. I've come across people thinking that moving abroad is a magic pill that'll solve all their problems. Thankfully, I am fortunate to be in a good position in many aspects in India, so I'm probably at the right place and right time, which unfortunately makes the decision making a bit more tricky. I know everyone will have his/her own stories/reasons and experiences that'll shape the decisions, and I enjoy and am humbled by learnings/experiences of people who are/were in the same boat. Thank you once again!

Cheers!

[androdev]

There are happy and unhappy customers in both camps - so it really depends on who you relate to the most.

Depending on your vantage point, every country looks to be on the verge of imploding. When it comes to India, we see no solution in sight for the problems of pollution, corruption, higher education opportunities, etc. Purely personal prejudiced opinion, but I don't like the direction the West is heading - high cost of living, weakening of the concept of marriage/children (leading to loneliness).

I feel the right thing to do is to take a hybrid approach to have the best of both worlds and not commit to any single country permanently.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by androdev

, weakening of the concept of marriage/children (leading to loneliness).
.

The need to marry and have kids is just social construct from the past. There are plenty of people who prefer to stay single, or are in some other type of relationship than marriage and have a meaningful life and are certainly not lonely.

In the past women often had to marry, partly it was expected, but also from a practical point of view. These days, in many societies there are no such needs.

Also, there are plenty of other relationships people enter into, other than a formal marriage. You don’t need to be married to have kids. Biologically speaking that has always been true. But again, having kids was a social construct as part of marriage. Bound by religious and legal laws. Again, these factors have disappeared in many societies. In many countries kids from non married partners have the exact same (legal) status as kids from married partners. (E.g. inheritance, surname and so on).

I’m all for these changes.

I feel the right thing to do is to take a hybrid approach to have the best of both worlds and not commit to any single country permanently

Maybe one should consider a hybrid approach to which country you live also to other aspects in life? Having more options, no being constraint by preconceived cultural, religious or even legal limitations or expectations from others is likely enjoyable? Or so I would think.

Jeroen

[PreludeSH]

All countries seem to be starting to resist immigration in one way or other. Canada and Australia just decided to limit immigrants including students saying they are not being treated well and there is pressure on housing etc Add to that the feeling of preserving culture, language, customs which everyone is feeling threatened.

Except US (and few other less developed or developing ones), I don't see any other country being open and non-racist to some extent compared to others. Came back after 15 years. Work is as good here as anywhere in the world. I will live more in my village and expect life to be as easy as abroad ! You have good connectivity now a days to bigger cities and takes less time to reach too.

Ultimately its a personal thing.

[androdev]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Maybe one should consider a hybrid approach to which country you live also to other aspects in life? Having more options, no being constraint by preconceived cultural, religious or even legal limitations or expectations from others is likely enjoyable? Or so I would think.

You can re-read my post by replacing the word marriage with companionship. It has nothing to do with preconceived cultural notions. The fact of the matter is those who prefer the concept of companionship through some notion of family (partner, children, parents, etc.) feel discouraged to pursue or sustain due to high cost of having dependents. You may not notice this in your immediate social circle, but across major EU countries population is shrinking and old age people living by themselves is growing.

The larger point is that the West is not without its flaws. There was a time when India had very little to offer to its promising young men and women while the West was very lucrative. This is no longer the case and one is advised to pick and choose the best of both worlds. In this day and age, it's not hard to live in both countries. Most people who go to Gulf countries do this with relative ease within modest means. It should be far easier for highly skilled professionals in the West.

[akhil_007]

Originally Posted by GandalfTheGrey

Hello Bhpians,
Some background: We (my wife and I) moved to the Netherlands last year for a period of 2 years.

....but your points of considerations would be of great help in my decision making. Thank you in advance!

Cheers!

Here are few topics/areas that you might think of , and the answers to these might help you make a decision

1. Is earning an important criteria? Is there a significant income difference between India and Holland for you to continue living there? If you are earning 3x or 4x of your India salary, then it is a good motivation to continue staying there.(Earnings should be after-tax in-hand cash component. Not CTC)
2. Are you and your wife Ok to leave your Indian-ness and assimilate with Holland culture?
3. Your kids will invariably be exposed to their culture and lifestyle. Trying to make them Desi by force will backfire. Relocating back to India once kids start schooling will be a nightmare due to culture shock
4. Do you see career growth in Holland over a span of 10-20 years?
5. Fresh Air, Water and Infrastructure are definitely positive points, but everything else will be a compromise (read: eating out, vacation, house help, maid, other forms of entertainment)
6. Schooling is very very different that in India and this might create a sense of losing out if you are keen on excelling in academics

I really like Androdev's line of thought. Short term, enjoy your time there, experience the land, culture,food and everything it has to offer and see if you like to continue.

Remember, Holland or for that matter, no country is a Paradise/Heaven. Understand the shortcomings and pick the lesser devil (from your POV)

[nandrive]

Originally Posted by GandalfTheGrey

My question/request: So I just want to ask the bhpians, many are/would've been in the same boat as I am, on what pointers did you consider if you are/were in a similar position to choose to move out of India completely (or) return to India immediately before starting a family(or)return to India after settling the kids abroad? I know this is purely a question of personal preference, but your points of considerations would be of great help in my decision making. Thank you in advance!

Cheers!

Answer to your question depends on you, more specifically depends on your socioeconomic background. If you belong to those sections of the society whose educational and employment opportunities are constitutionally restricted, its in your interest to emigrate, because looking at the current political climate and direction, a day shall come when most of the opportunities are constitutionally denied including in the private sector. If you belong to those sections of the society where you are a beneficiary of such a system then my advice is not valid. When you have an opportunity, make use of it, its better to be safe than sorry. Take it from me, a person whose family lost everything to land reforms, history repeats itself.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by GandalfTheGrey

A really good example of this phenomenon is when I see Hindustani Surinamese community in Netherlands who are still more "Indians" than many contemporary Indians themselves. They're in Netherlands for 2-4 generations, still they have strong reservations against many things which are long gone, at least from urban India. So, I always take the advice of people who moved out quite sometime back with a huge pinch of salt.

Interesting observation. There is a theory that some migrant populations or colonies are time capsules from the time when they left their place of origin or the colonizers. For example, some claim current American culture (& even language) is more similar to old English culture than the current English culture, same for Latin American vs Spain, Sri Lankan Tamil vs Tamil Nadu etc. Heck, India probably holds more traditions from the old British army, railways & civil service than the Brits themselves. There's my own parents who have been abroad for about 25 years and their image of India, Indian culture & what's considered appropriate in Indian culture is also stuck in that time.

Anyway, coming back to your predicament, I'd say, it's something that has been stuck in the back of my head as well, with recent events. I did ponder recently on a possible return to India. Unlike you, I'm not even married or have a partner yet but if I were to have a daughter at some point, I do quite dread bringing them up in India if I were to return. Economically speaking, India is better than before and the incentive to live abroad is indeed reducing (but still there). It's a tough choice.

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by GandalfTheGrey

My situation: With series of unfortunate events that happened in our country last few weeks, there's a serious question/doubt in our minds whether our kid/kids will be really safe back in India. I know even western society isn't fully safe, but it's definitely better for both kid's mental and physical health.

Hello GandalfTheGrey,

Good on you for deeply thinking and evaluating your options.

This thread is filled with personal experiences and anecdotes that you can spend weeks trawling through to get different perspectives. There are other threads too. I would highly recommend the below one,
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shift...nt-canada.html (My Journey : From an International Student to a Permanent Resident in Canada)

Personally speaking, I moved because there are somethings (the environment that's outside my personal bubble) that money can't buy where I was earlier. So it depends on your priorities in that particular life stage.

Gather all the information that you can possibly get, but process them with a grain of salt to remove bias and prejudice. You never really know the personal circumstances of people providing advice on the internet. People may sit in a comfortable position of privilege and preach to others who are not as privileged. Only you and your family can decide what's best for you. Good luck and I wish you all the best.

Speaking of Netherlands, I have visited the place a couple of times and I liked it. I haven't lived there to share any relevant personal experiences that may be of help to you.

Since you mentioned children and mental health I would like to share the below details from UNICEF and WEF.

WEF - 2020: Children's mental and physical well-being, academic and social skills.
A strong track record in mental well-being and skills places the Netherlands at the top of the table, with other regularly well-performing Nordic nations clustered not far behind.



Source: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/...unicef-report/

UNICEF - 2023: Sustainable Development Goal (SDG) indicators for Netherlands




Read more: NLD.pdf

UNICEF - 2023: Sustainable Development Goal (SDG) indicators for India



Read more: IND.pdf

Source: https://data.unicef.org/resources/pr...ountry-briefs/

The data is there. It might be worthwhile to read and understand which country provides a better environment for children to thrive, prosper and be happy.