[Jeroen]

This whole immigration is a hugely complex phenomena. But it is rarely discussed based on fact by either the right or the left. First of all you need to distinguish between illegal and legal immigrants. As I have mentioned before in most countries the number of legal immigrants tends to outnumber the number of illegal immigrants by a large factor. Roughly 80% legal immigrants. Those legal immigrants tend to have jobs. In fact even the illegal immirants often have jobs, just not in a legal way.

The asylum seekers are a bit different. There isn’t really an illegal asylum seeker. At worst your asylum visa could be denied. In general the number of asylum seekers is a relative small group.

What politician need to take into account is that immigration is always a function of your local economy. Sectors that are short staffed are always going to attract immigrants. Part of dealing with immigration needs to be how you want your economy too look like. What kind of companies, industries and so on.

The type of industries you focus on will to a large extend determine what kind of immigrants you need to attract. People often point at going for high tech industries rather than say farming or call centres.

You might be familiar with the Dutch company ASML which has its headquarters and main production facilities in Eindhoven. They employ about 22000 people of whom 9000 do not hold Dutch citizen ship. Every single one of them very well educated of course. These are very specialised jobs by and large.

But having this many immigrants, most with families has a substantial impact on the housing market, the schools, any type of facility in that area. Some local folks are becoming very resentful as they see a lot of attention of the local authorities going to these immigrants. Who are earning a lot more than they do, driving up the prices of housing, flooding schools with their kids. (All schools in the Netherlands are public). And so on.

The same is happening with universities. Many universities in Europe have more foreign students than local students!

So irrespective of what kind of immigrants you allow in you need to deal with the impact of them. Current labour shortages across Western Europe are unlikely reduce any time soon. Partly because of its population age and partly because it still needs to grow to maintains its general prosperity/welfare.

People need to realize most (western) economies need a good amount of immigrants to function properly. The UK learned that the hard way, shortly after Brexit. The NHS almost came to a standstill as many nurses, doctors and other health workers in the system were all immigrants (legal) and had to leave the UK.

I have yet to see/hear any politician in Europe discussing the way forward with immigration in a fact based manner. Depending on their political orientation they tend to focus on small parts of the problem or incidents and extract that too a grand all encompassing scale. A real debate about immigration is a debate about how you would like your society to look like, in terms of industries, workforce, age and so on.

Jeroen

[NomadSK]

Meanwhile, the Swedish government has said it will start offering certain migrants up to 350,000 Swedish kronor ($34,000) in exchange for returning to their countries of origin from 2026.

Source

[dragracer567]

Since we are talking about immigration politics in the West, I was recently staying at an Airbnb in Belgium and my neighbour was a lady who is the European level union leader in a major MNC.

She was actually talking about how before 2012, there wasn’t really much of a talk about ‘sending immigrants back’ though hidden racism always existed. But now with the surge of the Flemish far right (Flemish people are those from the Flanders region - the Dutch speaking part of Belgium), racism is much more normalised. She even mentioned that the Belgian King alluded to this in his Christmas address though cryptically since he is generally supposed to stay politically neutral.

Even with these issues, I’d say Europe in general is still by far the most open society on earth (don’t have direct experience living in the rest of the west to comment on them). I’ve never experienced direct racism in Europe but I did feel it indirectly a couple of times, but it was indirect enough that I only realise when I think about it the following day. But I’ve experienced much more direct racism in the Middle East and North India (I say North India because I’m from the South, also true vice-versa).

Further, such social issues crop up primarily when the economy is going through a difficult time. With stagflation being an issue in Europe, it’s not difficult for opportunists to paint immigrants as the source of all their ills. We faced the same in India during Covid as well. It’s particularly worse in the UK though ironically it’s their racism (which led them out of the EU) that caused these issues. Doesn’t help that the real-life Lex Luthor who runs X (formerly Twitter) is fanning the flames.

Overall, I’d say it’s 50% the responsibility of the society that receives the immigrants to make them feel safe, secure and give them a sense of belonging while giving opportunities for them to integrate but 50% responsibility also lies with the immigrants to ensure they respect & appreciate the local culture and integrate. A failure in the latter is what partially leads to the rise of far right as such incompatibility leads to ghettos and disproportionate representation of minority populations in petty crimes.

[McLaren Rulez]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Any current UK residents with similar experiences?

I can only speak for London but it is one of the most welcoming, cosmopolitan and immigrant-friendly cities among all the places I have lived in. All of this is post Brexit and through pretty terrible economic times and cost of living crises.

Maybe my experience is anecdotal but I think it's a fantastic example for how a city should treat its immigrants.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Sorry ...

It's a good thing there are only two goal posts. But don't worry, there are countless places to put them.

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Since the UK is under discussion, what do the BHPians settled in UK think about the immigration linked riots in July or the fresh riots in Ireland last week.

Is it just a storm in the teacup as left leaning media says, or a serious issue as painted by the right leaning media?

Originally Posted by Samurai

I was alluding to the mass migration issue (legal & refugee), more than the violent protest itself. Left doesn't see it as an issue, right thinks it is. Sorry if I was unclear.

Since I have lived on and off in the UK for the better part of 2 decades, I can try and answer this. The answer is very nuanced, as Thad says, and has a lot of parallels with India. I'll stick to people of South Asian heritage, and what they / we feel, disregarding the Windrush folks and others. I'll try to lay out the nuance in a long-winded post, because I'm ill and have not much else to do.

The UK has suffered from economic misrule since the 1980s. Maggie Thatcher (and her friend Ronnie across the pond) dismantled the social contract that FDR put in place, ensuring the boom years of post WW2. Little Britain's decline was briefly arrested by the re-emergence of London as the world's financial capital, helped along by laws that let you wash all kinds of money with absolutely zero oversight or questioning. The UK transformed from a manufacturing power to a services based economy so fast, even standard OECD deindustrialization numbers paled in comparison. Maggie wasn't completely to blame - the unions in the 70s turned Bri'ish manufacturing into a laughing stock. Still, she was a right old cow.

When Tony Blair came to power on his 'Cool Britannia' platform, he didn't do much to change it. As a result, the manufacturing nerve centres of the Midlands, the mines of Newcastle, and all the other institutions of world domination turned into ghostly relics. Unemployment shot up, prosperity tanked across the country. All this while, London got richer and richer, accelerated by 14 years of Tory rule. Standard capitalism then.

Now you have a country where a vast majority of the wealth is generated and resides in London (and the south), and the rest of the of the country thinks they are living on scraps, thinks being the operative word. London is also hugely mixed in race, possibly more so than any other city on earth.

Now add us brown people. Brown people in the UK are split into three lots:

• The Pakistani Mirpuri Muslims and their descendants - originally from northern Punjab and PoK, these guys worked in the royal army and on merchant vessels. Pakistan built a massive dam there in the 60s, so thousands of the displaced also migrated. Something like 70% of British Pakistanis are from this stock. Most of them were uneducated, and had no idea of how life outside their pind might be. As a result of history and culture, they are generally the least prosperous, most inward looking, and most religiously fanatical of all.

• African Indians - Because of governmental policies of exclusion and intimidation, nearly 150k Indians of various religions moved from Kenya and Uganda to the UK in the 60s and 70s. They were already subjects of the crown, due to various historic reasons, and so moved easily and with their savings. They were also all educated, and used to a higher standard of living and a 'Western lifestyle'. When most white Bri'ish people think of 'Indians', these are the people that come to their mind. Their children include people like Priti Patel, Rishi Sunak and other such abhorrent creatures. They hate the first and the third lot, for different reasons.

• Newer economic migrants - Since the 80s, people (mostly educated Indians) have moved to the UK, drawn by its booming services economy and the chance to make money. Also, a lot of doctors and nurses with the NHS, but that's an outlier. Except for the NHS, these guys are concentrated almost entirely in London and its suburbs, sometimes going as far as Milton Keynes. Most educated, richest or fastest growing incomes (all tech, medicine, law, finance), least likely to care about local politics or immigration, and deathly afraid of being clubbed with the first lot, mixed emotions towards the second lot.

Is immigration a big issue economically? No. Before Brexit, all the manual labour that the Bri'ish deemed below them - carrying bricks, cleaning toilets - was being done by white immigrants who had free entry from the EU or South American countries like Brazil. As the higher end jobs went to educated brown immigrants and locals, and the lower end jobs went to white immigrants, the average Bri'ish person found themselves squeezed into glamorous jobs like shop assistant, real estate agent, and so on. This obviously caused resentment. But the fact of the matter is, there aren't enough locals willing to do the dirty work, because in many cases the overall benefits package you get from the state is far higher. So no jobs are being taken. In fact, without immigrants the UK would collapse overnight.

Is immigration a big issue politically? Yes. Brexit was about immigration, the Tories coming back to power and misruling for a decade was about immigration, the riots are about immigration. To be precise, they are about entitled and lazy white people lashing out at anyone who looks different, because politicians over the years have told them that those different people are responsible for their poverty, their lack of opportunity, and their lot in life. The fact that they voted for this sea change escapes them, but then no one claimed they were smart. Sucks when you're 'proud white and Bri'ish' and Curry Singh drives by you in his brand new Rolls Royce, overtaking your Nissan Micra.

Now add some scaremongering - find a criminal who's black or brown, spread on social media that he's an immigrant / jihadi / Martian who's stabbed / shot / kidnapped / assaulted someone, and all the idiots who voted for Brexit and Farage will come out screaming my country god save Charlie and break anything in their path. But this isn't new, every riot is incited by demagoguery, and uses a minority as a bogeyman. The Sena did this with south Indians in Mumbai in the 60s and 70s, much closer to home. So the riots aren't really about immigration. They're about idiots lashing out, based on continuous misinformation given to them.

Have I personally seen a change in behaviour towards me? No. I've lived in large and small towns in the UK, and have worked closely with locals. I can't say they were ever openly hostile (the Bri'ish are also very passive aggressive) and I've never felt unsafe. London hasn't changed for me from a racial safety perspective, but that could be specific to London, or the area that I live in, which has a lot of Arabs and Indians. London is a bubble that will not burst in any meaningful way, short of all-out war.

Has the UK changed as a whole? Yes, it's become a lot poorer because all their dumb decisions over the decades have come home to roost. Civic services are underfunded, people are poorer, and there is a lot of a anger as things that people thought their birthright - free higher education, cheap housing, good healthcare - are being stripped away. There is resentment and it will boil over, if Labour doesn't fix it in the next few years (unlikely). So we will see more riots.

The whole world will see more polarization over the next couple of decades, until a cactlysmic event of some sort, human or natural, reshapes thinking. It has happened continuously with humans, and we are approaching the end of the longest era of continuous peace in human history. But don't worry, we will be taught our lesson and not learn it.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Sorry, I am not looking for the politics of it. Since I watch both sides of the debate regularly, I know all the arguments from both sides.

Isn't that a bit like saying I know what a dish tastes like because I read a recipe book? You have to actually understand the nuances and live through it.

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

But it may also be that the right exaggerates the numbers, the costs, the consequences, to suit it's own prejudices. The left a little less so.

As someone wise once pointed out, everything has been shifting right. Labour is now centre-right, and the right wing is today what would have been called far-right or fascist a few decades ago. This is visible across the world in policies and in rhetoric.

Just to put things in perspective, net legal immigration to the UK - including students - was about 1.3 million last year. The estimate for illegal immigrants in the same period is 50 k, or under 4% of the legal number. The population of the UK is about 65 million, or one NCR, from memory.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Since I have lived on and off in the UK for the better part of 2 decades, I can try and answer this. The answer is very nuanced, as Thad says, and has a lot of parallels with India.......

Thank you for this illuminating and carefully crafted answer. Your gift for tongue in cheek is alive and well. Other than Argentina and famously the USSR/Russia no other major country has witnessed a steady decline and structural undoing as has the UK. The competitiveness of the UK's industrial might was built on the premise of an empire to be exploited and the laziness this fostered had been creeping in gradually since circa 1890 when USA and later Germany started to get ahead technologically and in productivity. So what UK is experiencing is a macro decline driven by forces beyond the control of the here and now. Of course second rate politicians are to blame solidly as is the Brexiteer populace whose belief of the nation's strength is misled. Brexit is the last nail in the coffin. It is like Canada saying they will cut off all trade and business ties with USA and expect to do better!!!

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Isn't that a bit like saying I know what a dish tastes like because I read a recipe book?

If that is what I thought, why would I ask the UK BHPians about how it feels (tastes)? All the politics you covered can be easily gleaned from various UK based podcasts. But it still didn't give me a picture of how it feels to be an Indian immigrant, who is typically well-off compared to the natives. I somehow can't resist using the word native.

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Have I personally seen a change in behaviour towards me? No. I've lived in large and small towns in the UK, and have worked closely with locals. I can't say they were ever openly hostile (the Bri'ish are also very passive aggressive) and I've never felt unsafe. London hasn't changed for me from a racial safety perspective, but that could be specific to London, or the area that I live in, which has a lot of Arabs and Indians. London is a bubble that will not burst in any meaningful way, short of all-out war.

This is what I was looking for, and thanks for that. Even the history/politics was nicely summarized, as a history/economics buff I knew most of it.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez

I can only speak for London but it is one of the most welcoming, cosmopolitan and immigrant-friendly cities among all the places I have lived in. All of this is post Brexit and through pretty terrible economic times and cost of living crises.

Maybe my experience is anecdotal but I think it's a fantastic example for how a city should treat its immigrants.

Yes, London does a pretty good job. It also voted remain for Brexit. Sensible people.

I like to quote the former Mayor Sadiq Khan, his response on question on the impact of the conservative government’s policies on London.

Are you concerned that the Government's immigration policy is creating a hostile environment for migrant labour and adversely impacting London's businesses ability to employ the skilled workers that they require?
Answer
Date: Wednesday 16 May 2018
Sadiq Khan (Mayor of London): Thank you, Chairman. The Government’s hostile environment for migrants in the United Kingdom (UK) is a national scandal. The experience of the Windrush generation has shown us that the Government’s policies discriminate against Londoners who have a right to be here and leave vulnerable people without access to essential services.



London draws strength from the contribution of migrants who make the city their home. Migrants bring economic benefits to the capital and enrich our city, bringing cultural energy to our shared identity, but many, including thousands of children and young people who have grown up in London, face barriers to accessing their legal rights to citizenship and residence. This affects their ability to vote, access higher education and work, hold a driving licence and open a bank account. I know from my discussions with London’s employers that businesses are concerned about London becoming less attractive to European and international talent. They are also worried that the political climate is damaging to London’s reputation as an open, innovative and liberal economy. I share this concern.



We know that European Londoners have experienced feelings of being made unwelcome, discrimination, and experienced hate crime following the European Union (EU) referendum. We also know there is a slowdown in European workers arriving in London for work, and recent analysis by Deloitte suggests 65% of highly skilled EU nationals working in the UK now find the country less attractive. This poses serious risk for London’s economy, which relies on access to an international pool of talent to prosper and grow. Many of London’s sectors rely on migrant labour to grow. For example, construction and hospitality are two of London’s fastest-growing sectors in the last few years in terms of jobs, but almost a third of jobs are filled by European Economic Area (EEA) migrants. The Government must now take steps to avoid permanently harming London’s and the nation’s economy

Source: https://www.london.gov.uk/who-we-are...gration-london

Jeroen

[MaanSingh]

‘India is full of life, colour and culture’: US Woman explains why life in India outshines that in America.

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/India...1acc20bd&ei=24

[Deamon0508]

Originally Posted by MaanSingh

‘India is full of life, colour and culture’: US Woman explains why life in India outshines that in America.

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/India...1acc20bd&ei=24

Honestly, I haven't seen the reel, but I'll tell you what, we're a nation of content consumers, people would say anything and everything to get a positive reception and 'virality' in Indian social media.
I'm sure everyone here would agree that India is indeed a vibrant country, but everyone agrees that it is the administration that could use a thorough battering and needs a system reset and a purge.
I'll give you a recent personal example too, you might have or might not have heard that Bangalore received an above average monsoon, it's been 1.5 months, and my housing society is already up in arms about not being able to source water beyond the meagre volume that the municipality allots. Everyone knows that groundwater table is going lower, yet the administration would clear off nearly 20 acre of forest at a stone's throw from my apartment for a new Prestige "luxury 3 & 4 BHK homes", and a tech park, and a mall. Till about 2 years ago, when I used to go for early morning walks there, I used to see people come in with binoculars for bird watching, that's how rich the whole ecosystem was.

But anyway, I realize I might have gone off-topic here and thank you for letting me vent. I'm heartbroken that my beloved forested area where I used to play fetch with stray dogs, feed the squirrels, rescue birds, gawk at peacocks, wonder at finding snakeskin shed previous night; is no more.

Saved this little one from my own bunch of strays about an year ago, flew away no more than 4 weeks ago

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

London hasn't changed for me from a racial safety perspective, but that could be specific to London, or the area that I live in, which has a lot of Arabs and Indians. London is a bubble that will not burst in any meaningful way, short of all-out war.

Can London stay isolated from the rest of UK for long? I just heard the following statement:

London is a 1st world economy attached to a 3rd world country

https://youtu.be/OTWDzMjgsEY

[MaanSingh]

I have said this earlier, and I will say it again.

If you want to go abroad for any reason(s), please do not listen to anyone and give it a try - go experience a new life.
Most likely you will love it there (for first 10 years at least) as that's why you are considering going there in the first place.

If you like it in the long run, just stay there.
If it makes more sense for your own personal reasons to come back to India again, please do not hesitate to come back to India either (you will only appreciate Indian life more with all its drawbacks, if you do return back to India)

There are many on this forum, including myself - who chose India back again and it turned out to be a good decision for us (thoroughly enjoyed my 9 year stay in UK too and it added so many good memories to life)

Choose whatever makes you happy, life is too short!

================================================== =============================

Similar advice from Sam Altman of OpenAI (it was about entrepreneurship, but fits here perfectly)

“That’s the key to most risk, is most things are not a one-way door,” Altman said. “You can try something, it doesn’t work out, you can undo it, you can do something else.” It’s important to take the right risks but that doesn't mean that one should avoid taking altogether, he added. “The risky thing is to not go try the things that might really work out" because regret can kick in, the OpenAI boss said. “You kind of look back at your career 10, 20, 30 years later and say, ‘Man, I wish I had tried the thing I really wanted to try. You should just put a huge premium on doing that anytime you feel like you might say that later.”

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/tr...-12827060.html

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by MaanSingh

I have said this earlier, and I will say it again.

If you want to go abroad for any reason(s), please do not listen to anyone and give it a try - go experience a new life.
Most likely you will love it there (for first 10 years at least) as that's why you are considering going there in the first place.

If you like it in the long run, just stay there.
If it makes more sense for your own personal reasons to come back to India again, please do not hesitate to come back to India either (you will only appreciate Indian life more with all its drawbacks, if you do return back to India)]

Sound advise. No matter what it is a risk and no amount of research and talking to others is going to prepare you for the reality of it all. And these days emigration is far less permanent than before. You can move back. Sure that will come with some challenges and difficulties and risks of course.

Interestingly enough the total number of people immigrating worldwide has remained fairly constant since the Second World War, so for almost 80 years. It is just over 3% of the total world population in a given year. Of course, where people emigrate from/to has changed over the years, mostly due to economic factors or incidents (e.g. Ukraine war).

I worked for a large international company. I have been promoting our company at university campuses all over the world . Everybody always wanted to know about having an international career. Being an expat is different from being an immigrant in the sense that an expat is typically sent by their employer and is looked after in his new home country by his employer. And it is typically for a relative short stay, 1-2 years, maybe a bit longer.

True immigrants find a new home country to work and settle in all by theirselves and the mindset is usually these days not permanent, but mostly long term.

Although it was always an import criteria for new employees joining us, the actual number of employees going abroad as an expat was limited. We never limited expat positions to management, but always included a lot of SMEs as well.

Even in the era of the lucrative expat contracts it was often difficult to find people who would pack up and move abroad for a couple of years. Mind you, all paid for and facilitated by us, with an attractive package. Always few takers, if any.

Again, going expat is not necessarily the same as becoming an immigrant in the traditional definition. But was is similar that lots of people talk about going abroad. But in practice it is a very small percentage of folks that actually take the risk and go.

Kiddo’s to all of you on this thread that did!

No matter what, it is a highly difficult and risky step. In my experience people that do take the risk always benefit from it as a person. Putting yourself and your family in a completely new environment means you need to adjust and broaden yourself. I am a firm believer in branding your insights and experience and pushing your personal boundaries all the time.

That means taking risks and moving out of your comfort zone!

Jeroen

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Can London stay isolated from the rest of UK for long? I just heard the following statement:

London is a 1st world economy attached to a 3rd world country

https://Youtu.be/OTWDzMjgsEY

The statement is largely true. London-UK is like Mumbai-MH or Bengaluru-KA, but possibly less equitable than even those pairings.