[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by am1m

Hopefully people will still be motivated to ask specific emigration-related questions, and some helpful folk will continue to give specific helpful answers.

Agreed. This thread is indeed a good source of information.

Originally Posted by am1m

I agree that this thread could use a moderation re-calibration. If this was a vehicle-related thread, I'm sure by now we would have been asked to avoid general discussions (either generically praising or bashing the vehicle in question) and stick to specifics and facts that either recommend or point out the negatives of the vehicle, and if it makes sense for a specific user/use case.

Any time if you see something off-the-line, do report it and as usual one of the moderators will have a look at it.

[NomadSK]

In my opinon we can't get the general consensus on such emotionally debatable topic as this thread seems to compare elite Indian to common American.

What I would be more interested to read the discussion on comparison and hardship between the common indian to common American. Then only we can have a real picture.

It's like my car is better than your car - Getting a consensus is next to impossible.

PS - A tax payer, a house, a car - is the definition of an elite Indian in my opinion.

[navin]

Originally Posted by benbsb29

Just an example of the stuff kids get to learn, this is a night lamp my daughter made in school (not a private school). It involved working with wood, designing, laser cutting, soldering and the final finish ofcourse.

Nice work. FYI, several schools in Mumbai also promote this type of work and there are inter-school competitions to encourage kids.

[Way2Jimny]

Originally Posted by benbsb29

If distances are longer and commute time is a constraint via public transport, parents do the ferrying. This may be uncommon in India owing to the longer hours parents need to put in at work and hence unavailable. This is where parents in India employ drivers to ferry the kids around. I can personally quote friends in India who do so.

I can see all through this thread people trying to portray like working in India has very poor work life balance.
I would dread to be in a situation abroad having to spend more hours at work and not able to ferry the kids from school or sports.
In India I can just hire a driver from DriveU or even hire a taxi for the entire week.
All this without breaking the bank.

I agree with the views below.
In my experience senior management and project leaders who are responsible for delivery, spend lot of extra hours because of the responsibility that they carry.
I don't find any difference in work hours with respect to the country they work from.
It all depends on your job profile.

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Leaves... Do they grow on trees?

Holiday time in most UK working environments is fairly sacred. If you are entitled to so many weeks in a year, you get so many weeks in a year, and, unless it is your personal choice, you take them.

Some jobs are more pressurised than others, as anywhere. Some employers are fairer than others (also as anywhere). Some are expected to work long hours, but many who work "nine to five" arrive at nine and leave at five. With an hour for lunch.

Of course, everyone knows, or has even had, the boss who turns up at their desk and says, "I need this done now." Ha Ha, not everyone gets to be as bolshy as I was, but my response was likely to be "Then you should have asked me an hour ago. Bye!"

As an IT systems manager, I did put in plenty of extra hours. It goes with the job. A surgeon can't just walk out at 5pm, and a systems manager can't just leave a down server. I once worked 32 hours, over a weekend, to restore a system. And took the Monday morning off. But when I know the guy is just being awkward, it doesn't wash.

Originally Posted by NomadSK

PS - A tax payer, a house, a car - is the definition of an elite Indian in my opinion.

Sorry to say your opinion is wrong. This criteria would barely fit the middle class category.

[NomadSK]

Originally Posted by Way2Jimny

Sorry to say your opinion is wrong. This criteria would barely fit the middle class category.

I guess you need to see at the broader prospective and not at the lower spectrum.

Let’s calculate (correct me if I’m wrong)

Tax payer income 6LPA
House - 20L
Car - 5L

All this I have taken as per very very low spectrum, and extrapolate it to 10LPA

Now put this value here

At 10LPA one is among the top 2% of the world popoluation, if that’s not the elite, then I don’t know what is.

[Jeroen]

Just for those interested, the median income for American workers is USD 48000,—

Here is the median salary per state: https://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/14/medi...-us-state.html

So yes, the sort of salaries being discussed on this thread are way above median. Whether you want to call that elitism is up for debate. But anything over a 100k annually in the USA puts you well above what 80-85% of Americans are earning.

Jeroen

[mobike008]

Originally Posted by ntomer

In Abbotsford?......

Nope. We will probably try Abbotsford next year. Is it any good?

This is Skagit Valley in Washington. Not sure if you are aware, Washington produces 75%-80% of Tulips in entire USA.

Photoblog of this beautiful visit coming up soon.

[Jaguar]

Originally Posted by Way2Jimny

I can see all through this thread people trying to portray like working in India has very poor work life balance.
I would dread to be in a situation abroad having to spend more hours at work and not able to ferry the kids from school or sports.
In India I can just hire a driver from DriveU or even hire a taxi for the entire week.
All this without breaking the bank.

I agree with the views below.
In my experience senior management and project leaders who are responsible for delivery, spend lot of extra hours because of the responsibility that they carry.
I don't find any difference in work hours with respect to the country they work from.
It all depends on your job profile.

How many times does your American or European counterpart work late nights? Not talking about clients, but your colleagues working abroad in the same firm having the same job profile as you. This and a less stressful commute ensures they have more time to ferry the kids, hit the gym, or play a sport in the evening. Having said that, the time wasted by them on water cooler chats and group lunches is also much less. And they start their day earlier than we do.

The Indian office dynamic is such that the person leaving early is often looked down upon. The time wastage and distractions are also much higher here. The top management might want to portray otherwise, but the company culture differs from location to location and a lot of that has to do with the local management.

A lot of us choose to be in India for various reasons. A good work-life balance is not in the top of that list, if at all.

[vishnurp99]

Originally Posted by NomadSK

What I would be more interested to read the discussion on comparison and hardship between the common indian to common American. Then only we can have a real picture.

Actually the comparison is usually always between an elite (as in highly educated) indian vs indian american.

Most Indians who travel to USA get in through the skilled visa categories like H1B, L1B, EB1 etc. These are never common indians or common americans.

If you compare common americans & common indians, ofcourse the states win. You are talking about a ppp per capital income of approx. 7000 USD (India) vs 70000 USD (USA). This is around 10 times.

Once you come into the highly skilled categories, the difference goes down and in many cases, a highly skilled tech or management professional will probably earn more in India in terms of PPP dollars.

[bhp-obsessed]

Originally Posted by vishnurp99

Actually the comparison is usually always between an elite (as in highly educated) indian vs indian american.

While education, income, etc., are certainly aspects to compare with, I feel the personality of a person plays a significant role in determining how valid the comparison is.

I have lived almost equal parts of my life in India and the US, and my personality values fairness and trust in the societal system, and I am not a hustler. When I was in India, my blood used to boil in over 90% of the scenarios when I had to interact with public services, from something as simple as people cutting the line to get to a ticket counter, to having to bribe to get stuff done with the state. In the US those situations happen less than 10% of the time, which makes life a lot better.

The career has been good in the US, with work life balance, nice neighborhood to live in with excellent schools for kids, parents here on green card and get exceptional health care for almost free, enjoy several outdoor activities, siblings, cousins, and extended family close by, nice friends circle, and even have that elusive maid that does all our chores, and by most aspects have a great quality of life.

But, my wife keeps reminding me that I would have only had a mediocre life and career at best if I had stayed in India as I would not have known how to work the system because of my personality. And, I agree with her.

[vij]

Originally Posted by bhp-obsessed

I have lived almost equal parts of my life in India and the US, and my personality values fairness and trust in the societal system, and I am not a hustler. When I was in India, my blood used to boil in over 90% of the scenarios when I had to interact with public services, from something as simple as people cutting the line to get to a ticket counter, to having to bribe to get stuff done with the state. In the US those situations happen less than 10% of the time, which makes life a lot better.

Most resident-Indians value fairness and societal trust in the system. Corruption is still a problem but a lot of services like "bill payments" and dealing with municipalities can be availed online these days in India.

Originally Posted by bhp-obsessed

But, my wife keeps reminding me that I would have only had a mediocre life and career at best if I had stayed in India as I would not have known how to work the system because of my personality. And, I agree with her.

There maybe reasons other than "personality" too. Opportunities/circumstances/competition, and in a populous country like India, all 3 are intertwined.

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by vij

My son studies in a private Indian school, school has basketball court, Tennis courts, great labs etc. knows 4 languages at 11. He is a Karate black belt, a good singer, guitarist and participates in numerous science fairs n cultural programmes.I am a proud Resident Indian, father of a proud young-Indian. Hope that’s okay.

Congratulations to your son and you certainly should be very proud of his achievements. I wish him even greater success and happiness.

In a few years if this incredible young boy desires to pursue his education in one of the world’s top 100 universities, I wonder what your thought process would be. Would you,

• let him chase his dream or,
• consider these university rankings to be a farce or,
• hope India actually gets 1 or 2 universities into the top 100 or,
• educate the bright boy that IIS Bangalore that’s in the 201-250 ranking in 2024 is better than the top 100

Based on what you said earlier, you do believe that a private school is better than a public school, which means a better school = better prospects.

You don’t really have to answer. Why do I bother bringing this up then? Like I’ve said a dozen times in this thread, let’s take objective data for comparisons and learn from individual experiences which usually do correlate to the data, except for outliers.

Objective data says these are the top 100 universities. I can't help if a bunch of strangers in the internet want to argue against it based on subjective bias.

Subjective bias > objective data:
Sadly, some people don’t bring objective data to the debate, refute any ranking/survey/data that others provide, and go on about how their personal/anecdotal example applies to the majority. Sometimes these examples are decades old!! It goes both ways, and I don’t find them to be adding much educational value. You can search this thread for numerous such examples.

I live in Australia, and I like it. However, I’m not delusional to argue that the technology start-up environment, educational research and innovation, economic output in Australia is better than the USA. California, one state in the USA can beat Australia in the above mentioned areas!

Originally Posted by vij

Please don’t assume we are all trading away a “better life” by choosing to stay in India. That is ridiculous.

I did not. I was replying to a statement that assumed the opposite was the case. I also said that the "...make better human beings" comment should be avoided.

Straw Man arguments:
Replies get misunderstood, twisted out of context to the point where at times I forget what the OP’s question was!

Holier than thou:
If all else fails, then play this card. Let’s insinuate that people are abandoning their land and people.

I find it amusing that people talk about values, collectivism, apanapan etc. and in the same thread people also complain excessively about the time and effort spent in cooking and cleaning for their own family, that they like to outsource it. The society that does it themselves is labelled individualistic and dissed for making it too expensive to afford domestic help. Do what suits you the best, but go easy on the virtue signaling then.

Originally Posted by vij

There maybe reasons other than "personality" too. Opportunities/circumstances/competition, and in a populous country like India, all 3 are intertwined.

As I said earlier,

Originally Posted by kiku007

just simplify it by saying, a developed country/economy > developing country/emerging economy in providing more opportunities for a much larger proportion of their population. The former has solved many fundamental/structural economic and social issues which the latter is working harder and faster to resolve.

I typed the above in good faith with no intention to offend anyone. If it doesn’t make sense to some, it’s absolutely fine and let's agree to disagree respectfully. Peace out.

[vij]

Originally Posted by kiku007

Based on what you said earlier, you do believe that a private school is better than a public school, which means a better school = better prospects.

Thank you.
Of-course I would encourage my son to be the best he can be. I just don't think he cannot avail good education (in most fields, not all) in the best Indian Universities. Also studying in the top universities isn't the only defining factor, I am not from any top university, yet I do very well for myself and my family.
Personally I'd want him to stay back in India and do great things for India and remain connected with us, but its his choice in the end.

I don't judge you if your thoughts are different, but please don't judge mine . And Australia is a great country.

[hothatchaway]

Originally Posted by kiku007

In a few years if this incredible young boy desires to pursue his education in one of the world’s top 100 universities

Was checking the rankings, most of the leading Indian universities are at the very bottom; some of the IITs, VIT and BITS have fared so poorly that they are lumped in the 600-800s. Delhi University is 800-1000

Even the Indian Institute of Science is sub 200 while the Universities of Warwick/Nottingham/Sheffield/Adelaide make it to the top 100.

In the course of my life, I have dabbled a bit in education, especially post graduate institutes, I do not know what to make of the poor state of rankings earned by the universities in India. I know research output is, and should be an important determinant in these rankings and some of our traditional universities (read DU, CU, JU etc) still have some catching up to do, but the IISc leads the world in this regard according to the link below. Some of our technical institutes like the IITs are no longer behind either when it comes to research.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/83355542.cms

The Indian Institute of Science (IISc) Bangalore has been ranked as the world’s top research university, achi ..

Read more at:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/a...campaign=cppst

[bhp-obsessed]

Originally Posted by vij

There maybe reasons other than "personality" too. Opportunities/circumstances/competition, and in a populous country like India, all 3 are intertwined.

In my mind a person's personality determines how one takes advantage of the opportunities/circumstances/competition, or let those pass by.