[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by Janus

On the Contrary, I have always felt at home in Germany, where I spent one year. Loved their culture and their way of working. Especially respecting Private life.

It depends on what you prefer. Generally speaking, I've noticed that Germans are indeed somewhat closed, especially when you compare it with the Anglo countries. The West is a spectrum - I'll try to summarise below:

1) In the first group, we have the overly friendly countries - to the extent of not giving you any personal space, countries like Ireland, Spain, Italy and Greece. It can be overwhelming even for an outgoing person like me but you never feel lonely here. Also, the more South you go, the friendlier people get.

2) In the second group, you have the Anglos - US, UK and Australia (don't know about Canada) where it's much easier to integrate. A lot of it has to do with English but in general, I'd say it's much easier as a brown person to go up the ranks of a traditional company here than in other countries. In a weird way, I've noticed this vice-versa as well, many Brits are more comfortable around Indians than other Europeans - which I never fully understood.

3) In the third group, we have France. France is somewhat easy to integrate like the Anglo countries but the people can be culturally rude, even to each other. The rudeness increases by a sizable margin if you are talking to a Parisian! Similar to other Mediterranean countries, those from the South are friendlier.

4) In the fourth group, we have the Dutch. The Dutch tend to be the most open-minded & liberal (for example, Southern Europeans are a lot more conservative despite being friendly) and also the most likely to help a stranger. It's relatively easier to befriend a Dutch person as compared to people from other Germanic countries. But on the flip side, they tend to be a bit too direct and never beat around the bush, which is probably a good thing but takes time to get used to. The Danes more or less fit into this group as well.

5) In the fifth group, we have the Germans. I wouldn't say Germans are difficult to befriend per se but it does take more effort than say befriending a Dutch person. But when you succeed, the friendships tend to last a lifetime. Swedes more or less come in this group as well. Also, not as direct as the Dutch!

6) Finally we have the Belgians (Flemish) and Norwegians. I've noticed that these two groups are almost impossible to befriend. Having lived in Belgium, this is not an Indian problem, other Europeans face this same issue - even the Dutch who literally speak the same language. The issue seems to be that most of them never left the city they were born in and they've already made their friend circle by the time they are 18, so they really aren't looking for more friends. Also, they are extremely shy, to the extent that they wouldn't reach out unless you approach them first. But I've noticed that once you befriend them which can be an excruciating process, they do form life-long friendships. That said, these are individuals and you'll never be part of a Belgian-only group - even if you are a European.

These are some broad generalizations from my travels and friend groups, hope it doesn't offend anyone. Alcohol & meat aren't major contributors here but being open to experiences & other cultures are. For example, we had friends who didn't drink but would still hang out at a bar.

If any of the BHP'ians are members of the Facebook groups "Indians in <insertcity>", most of the posts will be like, I'm relocating to so and so city next month, which is the best place to stay where Indian communities and Indian stores are present or they go even specific and ask for specific state or language based communities/roommates.

However, most of the outside folks who relocate to India, they openly embrace Indian culture and even YouTube videos are made where a foreigner was eating with their hands or participating in Indian festivals.

Thats the same with any group. The Westerners working as expats in the Middle East always tend to aggregate into their own ethnic/national groups as well. The ones who travel to India come for the explicit purpose of understanding other cultures - hence more receptive.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

4) In the fourth group, we have the Dutch. The Dutch tend to be the most open-minded & liberal (for example, Southern Europeans are a lot more conservative despite being friendly) and also the most likely to help a stranger. It's relatively easier to befriend a Dutch person as compared to people from other Germanic countries. But on the flip side, they tend to be a bit too direct and never beat around the bush, which is probably a good thing but takes time to get used to. The Danes more or less fit into this group as well.
.

The Dutch are similar to the Danes? I take exception to that😀😀. Beyond Legoland there is absolutely nothing of interest in Denmark. Kopenhagen is ok, if you think the Dutch countryside is a bit dull, being flat, wait till you see rural Denmark. As boring as the Danes.

Jeroen

[mobike008]

Originally Posted by Samurai

To drag the discussion back to socializing abroad, it is not because of liquor or meat. Most Indians find it difficult to adjust to non-Indian styles of eating. I mean the non-Indianized foreign cuisine, not what you get in India.

Absolutely right. Another aspect is Indians live abroad exactly same as living in India. For them fun activity is

Potluck Parties,
Religious Gatherings
Going to Temples
Watching movies in theatre
Rarely eating at restaurants but, it will be only Indian cuisine.
If they are into sports (rarely), it will be TT & Badminton.

I steer clear from such Indian folks which is majority (rough peg is 85%) and befriend people who are adventourous in every aspect.

1. Outdoor Sports
2. Exploring Different Cuisine
3. Gathering together to enjoy a local sport (Like Super Bowl finals, Watch a game in stadium, hike in mountains etc)

We make it a point to eat at least one-meal a day which is non-endian which is typically for lunch (Salads, Soups, Sandwiches, Pasta, Burgers etc).

It's just a matter of trying different things which most of us are afraid and we love to stick to a set routine.

Originally Posted by Samurai

All the other facilities are way down the priorities. Just yesterday a BHPian shared photos from lunch at a golf club. Out of curiosity I asked if he played golf, he was a firm NO.

Again you are right. I have so many friends in India having prestigious memberships that either cost 1 Crore or have a 25-years waiting list.

They go their on Friday and Saturdays and drink alcohol and enjoy the excellent (and, cheap food).

[download2live]

While all this talk of cultural mixing is going on spare a thought for us introverts. You can put an introvert anywhere and we will be still be happy with a small circle of friends. And happy with solitude.
Socializing is simply not high enough on the list. Whether it be India or abroad.
Speaking on behalf of a small group of IT introverts.

[selfdrive]

Originally Posted by download2live

Socializing is simply not high enough on the list. Whether it be India or abroad.
Speaking on behalf of a small group of IT introverts.

I agree completely. In fact, there are some of us (me at least ) who decided to live away from a lot of forced and coerced socialising in India. Especially with extended family and friends. this should not be misunderstood as running away from or shirking responsibilities at home. Social media has made living in other places a lot more convenient. Remember the days when we used calling cards to make.voice calls back home.
But in a weird way, now that I am not around, I also miss those random weddings, birthdays, anniversaries with similar menu options and either hiding from specific annoying relatives or trying to look for that fun person whom you met at the last occasion but have no social contact with otherwise
In fact I am sure we all have a set of people we used to meet at such occasions, promise to meet up/ visit each other and repeat the cycle without actually meeting up.

In india too, most meet ups are usually for dinner (and/ or drinks). At least in earlier decades, the meets used to involve some activities. Maybe people are the same everywhere, we just need to find those with a similar wavelength. And as we get older, our tolerance for spending time with others as per their choice anyway reduces drastically.

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by download2live

While all this talk of cultural mixing is going on spare a thought for us introverts. You can put an introvert anywhere and we will be still be happy with a small circle of friends. And happy with solitude.
Socializing is simply not high enough on the list. Whether it be India or abroad.
Speaking on behalf of a small group of IT introverts.

When moving abroad, the so-called isolation / lack of friends probably works better for those who are introvert by nature; solitude is not new for them, they are not instantly bored with the lack of people around. They can take their time to ease into the new environment (from personal experience).

[dailydriver]

Had he put in even 10% of the effort in building up a life for himself in India, he could actually have been going places without going abroad!





Source: Hindustan Times

[NiInJa]

After spending a good 37 years in India, I moved to Glasgow, Scotland in October last year. The reason was just one: Have my kid spend time together with his cousin as both don't have siblings. In that sense, I feel 'mission accomplished'. Both are under 7 and the bond they have now living together is something that cannot be described in words.

I will have my automotive experiences written in another thread, just waiting for my Driving license before I start passing comments. In this one, I will try to do the obvious, comparing life in India vs abroad (Glasgow in my case)

Let me summarize first by saying this: If you are in late 30s, in India and earning decently well, the charm of moving abroad might appeal you for a initial few days. Once things settle down, you realize the smaller things that you miss back in India.
It depends a lot on 'when' you move abroad, the earlier in your age, the better.

The Emotional connect:
I have moved in my late 30's, so one needs to understand that there are lots of emotional investments I've made in India by this time, and those investments cannot be let go with just a flick of a switch. I have some very close friends, very close relatives whom I miss every single day. For all the quirks my old parents, uncles and aunts have, I miss them as well!

Since I've moved here, I find it difficult to connect with people who are in their 30s as well. As they too have made their emotional connect with their group. If I had come here 10 years back, things would have been different. Like they say, it is very difficult to make close friends once you cross the 30s.
I cannot discuss Indian politics, or the topics which I am comfortable with with having uncomfortable discussions with my friends back in India.

It simply gets boring at times.

Money and economics:
With few exceptions, most people moving abroad earn a decent salary with 'ok'ish savings, if you keep the conversion rate to INR aside. What that means is: Eating out is not that frequent, it is relatively expensive. Fixing things is expensive, so you don't get the kind of leeway you have in India. That might make you less inquisitive and dependant on others.
example: To fix a bicycle brake or a loose handle, pedals, we have to take the cycle to Halfords, which has a proper job card and car like servicing thing that literally made me laugh. I used to fix my bike on my own back in school. A tool-box is expensive one time investment, so its better to have a maintenance package that comes out cheaper and you don't have to worry about learning anything. I'll elaborate that further in next section.

One cannot eat out (eat healthy food that is) every weekend without making a considerable dent in savings. When was the last time we actually thought about it in India? I can get a decent South Indian breakfast every weekend.
There are no school fees or medical expenses, but don't mistake that for huge savings of your earnings.


Labor, Help etc:
Labour is expensive, so people either fix things on their own, or let things be as it is as long as it is not creating a problem. To get to a point where you can start affording machinery, equipment and skills required for DIY, you need to save a lot, that means earning (and saving) well for a good 5-7 years before you purchase a big house with some down payment, pay the EMIs and have the luxury of time and extra money to do these things.

I was already at that point in India where I had a nice house, could afford a bigger car and would not mind spending extra cash just on some experiments, even if they failed. So starting it again abroad while letting go of the comforts or luxuries I enjoyed in India is something I am adjusting to.

Domestic help is one thing, the help we get from our parent's or even neighbors is unmatched in India. Not that there is no domestic help available here, the economics is such that, to get to point where I can afford one, I need to get to a certain level of earning, which was already reached in India. The emotional support of grandparents need not be elaborated.

I do miss the times when we would wake up on Saturday, hand over my kid to his grandparents, the cook would prepare lunch, dinner, the maid would clean up my house, do the dishes, laundry etc. while I and my wife would go to a nice South Indian joint, catching up with my friends after a busy work week. Here, the pressure is on for not procrastinating chores of dish washing, laundry, vacuuming as it piles on and creates a big mess. The monotony triggers me literally! The time I get for doing stuff I really 'want' to do, comes at an expense of not doing some chore, or my wife taking it up at the cost of her time. It might feel like a small thing, but it does take a toll mentally. We've done Pune-Goa long weekend drives, leaving house as it is on Friday early mornings arriving home on Sunday night, to find our house neat and tidy, we just need to sleep and look forward to Monday. Try doing that abroad.

Healthcare:
I can only speak about NHS vs. India. Hands-down, no one can beat India's healthcare system. If NHS gets to do things the way they do in UK, to even one state like Uttar Pradesh, they will go crazy. Anyone who has opinions on India's healthcare built watching BBC, I suggest to keep opinions to themselves. The problem is not about the treatment or interaction, both are great here, compared to India. The biggest problem is the time it takes to get an appointment and get tended by concerned people. Example: I developed a sinus infection, somehow I knew it was bad as I was not seeing any improvement, nor was it showing any deterioration in symptoms. Lost a good 20 days before the GP recommended proper medication, prior to that, it was simply popping paracetamol everyday and hoping for a miracle. Not to mention, the pile-up of daily chores and stress it put on my partner as I was not able to function at full capacity. My kid came home having some allergies, rashes all over, called the NHS number, took about 40 minutes to get online, then got an appointment of 2 hours later. Till that time, he was sitting and scratching himself. I called a doctor friend and he recommended giving antihistamine once (we had got some common medicines from India), by the time we reached the clinic, his rashes were almost gone and the doctors praised me for administering antihistamine
My point is, when it comes to medical help, time is very important, and unless one is extremely sick, one really needs to spend more time here before getting treatment. Someone who never expected such kind of delays in India will get frustrated, just like me. By no means I am saying that the treatment is bad here, it is excellent. There are private hospitals too, but again, don't think I can afford it.

I'll try to pen down more, but let me tell you that it is not all gloomy here.
Living abroad is fun in its own way, the experiences of getting into new places are some of the best memories I will have when I grow old.
In the next post, I'll write all the positives too, as I feel this post has become a bit too negative.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by dailydriver

Had he put in even 10% of the effort in building up a life for himself in India, he could actually have been going places without going abroad!

At the risk of opening a spirited argument on this thread I'd say the following -- This man is representative of India's youth unemployment status. Our unemployment runs at around 8%. A decade ago it was in the 5.6% band plus or minus a little. That 8% figure means that amongst the young it will be typically higher as they are the fresh ones entering the market looking for a job most of the time. Unemployment and its twin - weak skilling infrastructure are the bane of the Indian economy as anyone who sets up business will tell you. These realities do not get reflected in today's fawning press who are focused on predictions of the $5 trillion economy which was to come in 2024 but has now been pushed out a few years. This young man, stupid as he is, was simply trying to get a decent wage. According to CMIE number 44% of the youth under 24 are either unemployed or in disguised employment. Even if half that number is correct it is a sad reality.

[benbsb29]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

At the risk of opening a spirited argument on this thread I'd say the following -- This man is representative of India's youth unemployment status. Our unemployment runs at around 8%.

Summed up perfectly as always.
None of this is too different from how folks from Kerala migrated across the world looking for work and opportunities as there wasn't enough locally within the state to utilise the skilled and even unskilled workforce that was on offer, back in the day.

[V.Narayan]

In a generation or less we will be the largest and maybe most influential diaspora in the world if we are not already there. OCI, PIO etc are steps in the right direction to integrate the Indian diaspora with the motherland with the integration allowing for vast degrees of flexibility in terms of economics, social connection, travel etc. Some of that is happening. And as India, hopefully, climbs the economic & geo-political ladder globally the diaspora, even those who have taken up alternate citizenships, will want to maintain a link to India.

The closest I can think of is the way British migrated to Australia, New Zealand, Canada and their numerous colonies while remaining closely tied to 'back home'. That diaspora was a source of infinite strength and soft power for Britain in its hey days and long after till about the 1960s. Dual citizenship should IMHO be the next step.

[PGA]

Originally Posted by dailydriver

Had he put in even 10% of the effort in building up a life for himself in India,

This guy's 'junoon' is at another level even when compared all consuming urge of going abroad that prevails in this part of the country.

To understand the problem, I feel we need to put ourselves in these guys shoes. Yes, we have unemployment, yes these guys aren't really well educated and don't possesses good life skills etc etc. But then it isn't their fault entirely, I feel a lot of it lies with our environment or to put it a little more bluntly, with our society. These guys have the energy, they have the passion and they have the confidence in their abilities. How else do we explain the fact that 90% or so never turn back for their native land. There are way more success stories than of failures abroad.

It is a time we as a society introspected a bit more, have we been able to shed off the baggage of ills that afflicted us in the past, such as class, caste, religion et al, atleast to a point where it doesn't impact an individual to make his life. Do we have the compassion to nudge the guy lagging behind.

We have an upbeat economy and ocean of opportunities in our country is a common refrain which is not untrue but why is this youth not convinced and not ready to invest their effort here, maybe they are not accepted. Even at a family level we confuse about respect and obedience, and we all know that it's is independence that holds the key to success.

I read a story about a US Admiral's daughter who married a Jew ensign of US Navy and Admiral invited them over for a dinner and accepted them whole heartedly. While we berate Canada for so many reasons, it is still amongst the most liberal societies inspite of huge immigrant influx. I feel the day it starts to happen here, the 'donkey' route will be cleared of Indians.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

. Dual citizenship should IMHO be the next step.

Dual citizenship is an interesting topic. You might not see it mentioned much in mainstream western media, but there is definitely something happening.

Mostly right wing parties tend to be against any form of dual nationality. E.g. when you move to the Netherlands and want to become Dutch, you have to denounce your original nationality. My wife has dual nationality, British and Barbados. But under Dutch law she is registered as British. If she takes up Dutch nationality she would lose her British nationality.
It is all quite complex,

There are exceptions, but they are very limited.

It is part of this (ridiculously my opinion) immigration debate. So more strict rules on dual nationality is something that seems to be slowly creeping into the system.

Certainly in Europe the general sentiment against immigrants is shifting to a more cautious, careful and certainly more restrictive approach. It is not just illegal immigrants, but all types of immigrants, including students and high tech workers.

Jeroen

[noopster]

Originally Posted by NiInJa

After spending a good 37 years in India, I moved to Glasgow, Scotland in October last year.
(...)
In the next post, I'll write all the positives too, as I feel this post has become a bit too negative.

On the contrary, I found your post very balanced and it resonated with my own experience. I was always someone who wanted to live in India and, as luck would have it, I started travelling internationally in my job quite early on (mid-20s) which only affirmed my choice ("the best of both worlds" as I called it). I had two stints based overseas of roughly two years each, Singapore when I was in my early 30s and New Zealand in my early 40s. Going into each of those stints, I was pretty clear that I would return to India at the end of it. So my actions followed that thought process: I didn't buy a car or take out a mortgage on a house, had a decent enough quality of life but prioritised saving money (primarily to fund real estate assets back home), kept the kids school admission back home active, etc. Although I would be lying if I said I wasn't tempted to stay on, especially in the second stint (NZ is an amazing, beautiful place!), let's just say life intervened and we came back to India and are peace with our decision.

At the end of the day, and this is a very personal thing for each of us, I can never shake off the feeling that I am not living in my own country. As frustrating as it can be living in India, it is the only place in the world I feel completely at ease in. I love travelling and seeing and experiencing new places and would happily do even longer stints abroad if I got the chance to, but now I am content in my decision to return and stay "home". The reasons have been touched on by far too many of us here so I won't go into those again.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Dual citizenship is an interesting topic. You might not see it mentioned much in mainstream western media, but there is definitely something happening.

You are aware that both UK and USA allow dual citizenship. I thought that [mainland] European countries would too, and am surprised to hear that Netherlands does not.

India never has and it would require an amendment to the constitution to do so. OCI is a super-diluted form of "citizenship" that is actually a grant of visa-free entry, but is not citizenship at all despite its name.