[PrideRed]

Originally Posted by akhil994

A slight disagreement here...

Understand your perspective. Getting a brand new 911 is easier but then its not that easy. In my org's parking I could spot only couple of Porsche's/M series among 1000 cars parked. Buying a 911 is big ticket item and many find it difficult to afford. Again far more easier than India but not as easy what I thought. Yes you have better options when it comes to cars but after driving outside India, I would anyday prefer driving a Figo to Madikeri than munching freeways in a V6. Again these are my preferences and I respect yours.

Last month met a junior(In early 30's) from high school who is working in a bank in tier 3 city. Has a Rapid Rider, recently had bought an independent house in decent sized plot, had lovely family . Being tier 3 city had access to clean air, good borewell water and was talking about his splendid roadtrip to Ooty. All this when he can meet his near and dear ones in about an hour.
That said overall quality of life is better in developed countries, systematic and predictable, but as someone mentioned earlier here personally find it more fulling in India especially when you grow older.

All said I would agree on your last bit. I know close ones who has settled abroad, some who have returned and a lot who do not wish to settle outside India. This will depend on circumstances, options you have in hand, health conditions and more than everything what are your preferences and priorities.

[v1p3r]

Off on a tangent - it strikes me as odd, or perhaps ironic, that there are largely two sets of reactions. One set of experiences, and thus opinions, are honest and well weighted, borne out of experience. To name a few contributors, ACM, Samurai, V.Narayan, GTO, kiku007.

The other set consists of people who know better than everyone else. They feel the need to denigrate other people's choices that don't affect them at all, and are quick to take offence to an opinion differing from theirs. Perhaps one day they will emigrate for some reason that they didn't foresee, and then reevaluate their words. One can only hope.

The mean of opinions born from experience will always outweigh rants and raves. Of course, this is the very antithesis of social media.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

And at least in Delhi the hold up is never for 30 minutes. At best 5 minutes. Not saying that's acceptable just sharing the facts as I have experienced them over a long period of time.

Sir, you are very lucky (even in this regard). Recently, our esteemed and accomplished Prime Minister's travel plans held up much of Mumbai's Western Express Highway. In BLR, I live near the old HAL airport, on the main road. This road is often shut for 20+ minutes at a stretch, while some luminary lands at the airport and makes their way into town. Unlike most other cities in the world, we've not figured out using choppers to ferry people who need to get somewhere in a hurry.

[download2live]

A "cautious" contribution to this thread.
Most of the bhpians are a level above the rest in indian people in terms of having their act together regarding career, life and financial stability. In my books if you are talking about car ownership in 2000-2015's (not sure of it now) it means that you have arrived.

But there is a vast majority of people out there who are mediocre. Who do not want and also will never reach those 1cr paying CTO jobs in unicorn startups. Or who do not want and will never be the VP. And who never will be able to work rent free from their hometown.

But they still have to pay school fees, tackle medical emergencies and plan for a nest egg. It is difficult.

I know we can say that it is because they are not good enough. Which is true. But it is also true that for every successfull person there are 1000's of mediocre people. We cannot wish them away.

Mediocre people working abroad have a better life. And it is not just IT.
Yes the person will never break the glass ceiling. He will never be groomed for leadership positions.
But does a mediocre person want to do that?

Regarding relationships and relatives unfortunately I have seen the other side of the things. I might be an outlier here. But relations are mostly limited to we can help but for a "week". I know I will be flamed for this. Apologies in advance since I might be an outlier.

I have worked both in Hyderabad and Bangalore as a mediocre person in small companies.

Frankly speaking it is better here. As a mediocre person I am doing better here.

The only thing which is painfully impossible is caring for parents in their old age. I still have not figured out what to do. It is a thought which keeps nagging me and honestly I have found no solutions to this.

[Freespirit27]

[/b]

Originally Posted by saildrive

Hi

My wife has suddenly gone on a spurt of memories and emotions...and is contemplating us migrating there too, leaving my software in complete disarray!

What has been going through my head in the mean time is that, what is it that we do, why we do and is it really worth it!!

The only place that I thought I could get answers to these queries is TBHP.... and off I shoot!

Cheers

You are done for my friend unless either of the two happen:-
Her sister tells her after settling that the place is no good- a remote possibility considering they would have made a invested decision
OR
You take her to visit them in the coldest winter and she makes a weather wise decision

Light-hearted advice apart, wives are not like most cars and bikes- they may not respond entirely to love and care- if you are asking out here, it means a part of you agrees with her, which is good! Since it is a financially tough decision, work out the economics with her, keeping in mind that one of the sisters may need to be here for the family! Plus of course how independent you can be of yours!

That said I do wonder the relevance in the forum of offshoots on Ukraine war; Hair loss and now Emigration advice..


Mod Note : Post Edited. Smiley usage is restricted to two per post on Team-BHP. Please do NOT use more than 2 smileys in a post.

We advise you to read the Forum Rules before proceeding any further.

[sierrabravo98]

Originally Posted by Freespirit27

[/b]
You are done for my friend unless either of the two happen:-
Her sister tells her after settling that the place is no good- a remote possibility considering they would have made a invested decision
OR
You take her to visit them in the coldest winter and she makes a weather wise decision

Light-hearted advice apart, wives are not like most cars and bikes- they may not respond entirely to love and care- if you are asking out here, it means a part of you agrees with her, which is good! Since it is a financially tough decision, work out the economics with her, keeping in mind that one of the sisters may need to be here for the family! Plus of course how independent you can be of yours!

That said I do wonder the relevance in the forum of offshoots on Ukraine war; Hair loss and now Emigration advice..


Mod Note : Post Edited. Smiley usage is restricted to two per post on Team-BHP. Please do NOT use more than 2 smileys in a post.

We advise you to read the Forum Rules before proceeding any further.

You do realise you are replying to a 12 year old post? Because I don't think the Ukraine war was a factor back in 2010. Anyways, the "Shifting Gears" forum is intended for non-car related stuff and has been an important part of TeamBhp for as long as I can remember.

P.S: The advise on the wife front may be eternal though. May help me in the future. So thanks for that

[vibbs]

Originally Posted by download2live

A "cautious" contribution to this thread.
....

But there is a vast majority of people out there who are mediocre. Who do not want and also will never reach those 1cr paying CTO jobs in unicorn startups. Or who do not want and will never be the VP. And who never will be able to work rent free from their hometown.

....

Thank you for this post. Last few pages of this thread has been one of taking stands and generalising based on individual situations.

I am another mediocre person who can never dream of 1 cr plus job in India. I was born and brought up in Delhi and moved to Pune for my job in my thirties. I spent 6 years in Pune and in the meantime my parents returned back to their roots in Kerala. So not privileged enough to see my parents read their favourite book in the other room while I work either

My life went on - certainly not with the 1 crore plus salaries mentioned in this thread. More like 25 LPA. I was pretty happy to be fair, but it's certainly not the 'wow' profile if you go by the comments on this thread.

This is not a rant. The point I am trying to make is that each of us is different and in different circumstances and decisions made under those should not be looked down upon (be it to emigrate or not to emigrate).

Anyways cut to the point; 3 years back I moved to Singapore. In 2019, I could afford to meet my parents and in laws more times in a year than I could while I was in Pune (then COVID struck).

Better savings (paid off my home loan which would have otherwise taken another 10 years), better standard of life and exposure to a different culture (VBSan's fantastic point about seeing one's own country in a different light) are other perks. I think this was perhaps the best decision in my career (atleast till COVID struck and I was stuck in SG for 2 years). Now I am in my forties and I do Harbor thoughts of coming back in a few years. But the question is what pay will make me happy? 60 LPA, 70LPA? I don't know. Can I get those in my field? Very unlikely.

So I come back to the point that each of us is different with different circumstances. What is a no-brainer for one is not so simple for others. I see this thread as a treasure trove of practical information for those looking for advice before moving abroad. I myself got some valuable pointers when I was evaluating a move to Sweden few months back. I hope this ethical debate on why one should migrate or why one should not migrate does not move this thread away from that.

[Freespirit27]

Originally Posted by sierrabravo98

You do realise you are replying to a 12 year old post? Because I don't think the Ukraine war was a factor back in 2010. Anyways, the "Shifting Gears" forum is intended for non-car related stuff and has been an important part of TeamBhp for as long as I can remember.

P.S: The advise on the wife front may be eternal though. May help me in the future. So thanks for that

Oops moment, thanks for the point out!
I guess I got carried away going back to the original post. And of course the time warp of 2010 to Ukraine can be excused accordingly

[hdus001]

Originally Posted by download2live

A "cautious" contribution to this thread.
.

This post resonates very much with me. IMO this is very much an overlooked aspect in these discussions.

For people towards the top end, life is pretty sweet in India. This includes people who are incredibly skilled/ambitious or incredibly lucky (ie born into wealth) or did very well in business etc. However, this is only a small percentage of the population. The vast majority have neither the skills/luck nor the inclination to push so hard. And for this vast majority, IMO the western countries do provide a lot better quality of life.

I'd put myself into this category too. I and the wife have an agreement to take life a bit easy and not push ourselves too hard in our careers. I work in a Principal Engineer / Middle management role in IT and believe I'm reasonably good at it, however, I intentionally don't take up tasks/opportunities that are significantly outside my comfort zone as I just don't want that pressure on myself. In some ways, I do just enough to keep myself competitive in the market Quite happy with having incremental increases in income over the years than big numbers that come out of pushing oneself hard. My days are mostly 9:30 am-5 pm (this is the norm in offices here, so it's not just me). Similarly, the wife is a dentist and only works 4 days a week, by choice.

Even with this relatively relaxed way of life, we are still able to lead a decent life. I don't think a couple like us would be able to afford the same kind of life in India (ie buy multiple properties with our own money, have nice cars, have time and money for regular vacations/hobbies etc) unless we inherited a lot of wealth.

[Amrik Singh]

Originally Posted by hdus001

This post resonates very much with me. IMO this is very much an overlooked aspect in these discussions.

For people towards the top end, life is pretty sweet in India. This includes people who are incredibly skilled/ambitious or incredibly lucky (ie born into wealth) or did very well in business etc. However, this is only a small percentage of the population. The vast majority have neither the skills/luck nor the inclination to push so hard. And for this vast majority, IMO the western countries do provide a lot better quality of life.

Do the so called born with Silver spoon, get neat & clean air to breath in India? Can they reach their destination punctually driving through local traffic ? The list is endless.
Nah ! Wealth does not get everything in India. Although some of issues persist in developed countries too, but situation is not as bad.
To get a whiff of clean air, we have to go to nearby hill stations, whereas we can conveniently find some naturally protected trails abroad.

[hondatoyotafan]

Originally Posted by FiatDiesel

Well who I am to think or judge about it but the thoughts about his father made it painful. Senior citizen, shuttling between continents to whims and fancies of his children.
My only suggestion will be, in case you have responsibilities at home in India, please give them due thought and respect, rest is karma.

After a decade abroad i came back for the same reason. to take care of my aged parents who were not well. They could have been relocated to the US as my sister is a citizen there but my dad was in no mood to relocate and sit within the 4 walls.

I was watching this thread closely as i am a returned NRI. I would advise people younger to migrate and learn the pros of the developed world even if they are not settling there forever.

According to an uncle who was in the foreign service he used to tell me that the US and Australia were the best countries for an Indian to migrate. Since i lived for 2 years in Canada. I like Canada more than the US even though the salaries are lower the life is more relaxed. For an average IT person who is a technical person there is no shortage of tech jobs in Canada. I got my job while sitting in the US and doing skype interviews and US experience is well accepted in tech as it is mostly the US companies having their operations in Canada. I have also been to the UK on a short term assignment but did not like the european lifestyle of small houses and expensive things.

[devsoftech]

I want to share my story. My career started in 2003 and my employer sponsored my MS degree so I was a bonded worker in a way. Low wages but honest and self motivated worker. It’s about commitment to the Karma Bhoomi. I got into cars as my dad would never encourage driving and he saved every penny to build a house for the family. He being a mathematician and smart IIT engineer, I got denied of all rich kid benefits as he was street smart and I was poles apart. When my take home was 17500, I started my journey with an Alto Lxi. Always wanting to impress my cohort. While most of them were trying to save money and buy houses. Some of my friends had relatives who adviced them that on-site is good as it “triples” your savings. I was such an awesome hard working person who would take phone calls at offshore and solve problems. My manager never considered me for an on-site because I was introvert as well. And during the days of orkut I started hating these relatively less yet political cohort who would go on-site and flaunt half shorts and muscle cars. I motivated myself to get into product company and was taken for a ride my HR again. Not offered a competitive pay but then was decent. In all these 19 years of work experience I have changed just 4 jobs, and longest tenure was for 11 years. In my previous company, my supervisor made a case for me to relocate to US in 2014. It was a systematic process. Good appraisal and a good case for intracompany transfer. It was not easy, years of hard work to earn that reputation. Got a competitive pay and started a new chapter since then. I had no clue how people look at roles to fast track green card processing. I was in denial for a long time and when me and family became a victim of identity crisis, we filed for PERM in US in 2017. Now the expectation is to continue staying till our kid gets into college. I personally have no strings attached to my permanent residency. In all these years since I started working - S class is my 13th car and Goldwing is my 6th two wheeler, and more than 8 lakh kms on this planet. I feel I have arrived. Sometimes the perfect support and perfect window opens up. Some priorities or desires like house etc have to be put on back burner

[mohansrides]

Originally Posted by download2live

A "cautious" contribution to this thread...

Originally Posted by vibbs

Thank you for this post.....

Very thoughtful and considered posts from you two gents. Thanks for taking the time to choose your words carefully. Most people, including myself, would agree with most things you say.

As with everything, moving somewhere is also about being in the right place at the right time. For example, the Y2K problem, which most people don't even remember now, was the galvanizing force that opened the doors to literally hordes of IT workers (many of them being very mediocre) to find their footing in the West. I know more people like that than I can count. Many of them are in big tech companies like Microsoft holding high office. In any other time, they would not have been considered even for an interview, given their lack of "pedigree". But, such was the nature of the urgency in those years that body shopping consultants shipped people to the US by literally boat-loads and almost every one of those people found a very welcoming environment; what with Y2K manpower requirement and the economy roaring during the last of the Clinton years.

My point, and I seem to be the only one making it here, has always been about the negative possibilities. Losing one's job is a very real possibility. Statistically speaking, it has a much higher probability of happening than most other setbacks in life. So, one should think about it in detail and understand how things would play out if it came to pass. Just like we buy health insurance or life insurance to account for the unfortunate times, this too is one such circumstance that warrants deep thought. Granted that most don't go through it. But, many do. But, almost none of them will talk about it. Certainly going by the glowing self-bios on Linkedin, it would appear that our economies are filled with superstars who have never failed in any real sense. No, not in the inspiring Shah Rukh Khan style in Chak De India; but in the unspectacular, ugly, humiliating, and despondent ways that real failures play out.

Originally Posted by download2live

The only thing which is painfully impossible is caring for parents in their old age. I still have not figured out what to do. It is a thought which keeps nagging me and honestly I have found no solutions to this.

There are no solutions. One can't have their cake and eat it too. An earlier post was talking about Pune and KL appears to have missed the point that Samurai was making. It isn't just about the distance. Accessibility is also about processes, procedures, time and affordability. MY FIL called us in Mumbai at 5:30 AM saying that he couldn't breathe. We made some first response arrangements while simultaneously planning travel. No exaggeration at all; but, my wife was at her father's bedside in Trivandrum not later than 10:30 AM.

• 5:30 phone call
• 5:45 ticket booked via Cleartrip on the phone.
• 6:15 she was in a cab to the airport for her 8:30 flight.
• Landed at 10 am.
• Home by 10:30 am.

That is literally 5 hours from phone call to physical presence.

To top matters, we had 3 real constraints

• Our first daughter was a hugely active 3 year old who required constant supervision.
• We were right in the middle of the second trimester of the second pregnancy.
• Our house in Mumbai was in disarray due to a painting work.

Even with these constraints, we were able to apply ourselves, divide up duties and provide full care to the elder parents. No way that would have been possible if we were living in the US.

For what its worth, my SIL could manage to arrive in Trivandrum from the US only for her father's funeral 6 weeks later - visa stamping, finances, leave availability, small kids, travel times and what not!! Wisely, I chose to not ask her how she was doing when she finally walked in the house to see her father wrapped up and ready to leave.

Such is the nature of our choices, I suppose.

One more thing. In India, a huge mitigating factor is the availability and affordability of help. This is another aspect that no one talks about. You don't have to do everything yourself; and you don't have to earn 1 Cr to afford meaningful assistance. As much as we helped our families, our kind maid/s helped us. Me and my 3 year old were living out of a makeshift tent in our living room while our doting maid kept us fed all the while reporting back to HQ. In the US, you could have a high flying career, but you have to do everything yourself. Even if you make USD 200k, it is not really possible to afford help which has a huge mitigating effect on the rigors of life.

[Vedant Gupta]

Hello everyone.

I am currently facing a dilemma on which I would like to know the views of different people.
I am resident of Bombay and have been lucky to be born in a well to do family.
I am 25 and have a bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering from a tier II college. I was recruited from campus for a engineering MnC as a project control engineer.
I am currently liking what I do and I am earning a starters salary, nothing great, not too bad either.

To jump the ladder in India, the only option seems like an MBA at this point although I am a little weary of consulting and finance jobs which is why I am a little hesitant towards doing an MBA.

I was thinking of applying to the US for a master's in engineering management for 2023. The plan is to apply to the top 5 colleges offering the course and go if I get in.
I figure that I have about 8-10 years before I take on additional responsibilities, a time I can spend making money in the US. If everything is smooth, I am not opposed to the idea of staying back in the US as well.

My parents want me to stay in India and get an MBA. I feel that they are looking at this more emotionally rather than objectively and I don't blame them. I would too, in their shoes.

My friends who have gone to the US for their masters (A lot of them in average colleges) are doing quite okay.

What is your opinion? Does the US job market have enough opportunities for me or should I stay back in India?

Any MeM or MS&E graduates on the forum who would like to share their experiences?

I understand that things are going to be tough but I have a short window of opportunity.

Thanks.

[vibbs]

Originally Posted by mohansrides

There are no solutions. One can't have their cake and eat it too. An earlier post was talking about Pune and KL appears to have missed the point that Samurai was making. It isn't just about the distance. Accessibility is also about processes, procedures, time and affordability. MY FIL called us in Mumbai at 5:30 AM saying that he couldn't breathe. We made some first response arrangements while simultaneously planning travel. No exaggeration at all; but, my wife was at her father's bedside in Trivandrum not later than 10:30 AM.[list]

Thanks for your post. Actually I did not miss the point Samurai made. I just said and still say, it's an individual opinion based on his/her circumstances just as mine is. And each person who plans of relocating outside needs to consider his/her situation.

Btw, I have my own version of your FIL case.

I was traveling on business to Chennai. In the middle of the meeting I get a call from my relatives that my dad has suffered a heart attack and has been rushed to a hospital in Ottapalam. I got the call at 2PM, took a 6 PM flight to Coimbatore and was at the hospital by 10 PM. But that is not the thing here.

My mother and my wife, both were in Pune. No direct flights on the same day to Kochi or coimbatore after we got the news. First flight was early next morning that too via Bangalore but still earlier than the flights that flew on the same day. They arrived only the next day. If I was not in Chennai, I could have arrived the next day only as well.

The point again is that not all of us are lucky enough to work from places close to our parents despite being in the same country nor is everyone here relocating to US, Canada or anywhere far from India.

When I relocated to Singapore, I assessed that I had more options from Singapore to my home town than from Pune. The only difference was 2.5 more flying hours.

This got kind of got proven when I had to travel on short notice again upon the death of a relative. Booked a ticket in the morning for a flight in the evening. The return flight costing only SGD 350 to and from Coimbatore.

Of course COVID made me rethink my decision due to entry restrictions back to SG. But that's that.

I agree with the affordability factor but it needs to be discounted with the life you want to lead. And this is what I suggest most people who ask my opinion to relocate outside.

For eg. I don't think I need a maid to help me in my daily work. We don't have one in Sg despite it being quite affordable for us. So this is never a consideration for me. Plus, working in Singapore, puts me in a much better position to pay off a full time maid at home if I ever need it back home.

With the pay I earn in SG and what I used to earn in Pune, life is much more affordable in Singapore and easier than it was back home. Even if I ever employ a full time maid or buy a car in the most expensive car market in the world.

Again the point I was trying to make is not to generalise.

[benbsb29]

Just got time to catch up on this thread, and great posts by download2live and vibbs. Finally someone said it - the world outside does offer a common person a much more level playing field, rather than just the haves getting to enjoy the spoils. Also, the workplace is not as biased as people seem to indicate.

Originally Posted by vibbs

I just said and still say, it's an individual opinion based on his/her circumstances just as mine is. And each person who plans of relocating outside needs to consider his/her situation.

This is the same point i made earlier on this thread. Folks who lived in foreign lands, made enough money to now live loan free, those who have inheritances to live off.. they need to realise there are others who are trying to make their own fortunes and lives. To be held back by love for the land is not logical, as there is no social service system to support them if they don't earn their own daily bread.

Another point i keep seeing on here is the availability of domestic help in India and its affordability. IMHO, this is overrated. I find satisfaction in cleaning up after myself, rather than have someone do it for me. I can cook up a meal, clean, wash utensils and even wash my own car - it's not as hard as people say it is. Also, after a certain point in life, if you do need this to be done by someone else, its not as expensive as made out to be. Rather than someone doing a daily clean of the house, get in a cleaner who comes monthly and yet does a great job at it.

Personally, i find that being able to manage my own house makes me feel complete, and not dependent on domestic help. Till recently, we didn't even have a dishwasher but a good friend from the forum introduced me to the joys of one, and there's been no looking back.