[bhpmooney]

Originally Posted by mohansrides

All I know is that people out of jobs and out of luck in the past never had it so good to bring visibility to their plight. During the early 2000s and even during the first decade of this century, every single H1B out-of-jobber just suffered silently [lost earnings, assets, and future opportunities (due to legal wrangles); and in some cases lost families due to divorce and/or relocation]. Then they went on Linkedin to spin a rosy picture of what a storybook journey their career has been thus far.

Hello, This is my first post after lurking around since mid 2000s. This thread kicked me into the feels enough to get me writing.
In the world of whatsapp and telegram, I haven't seen any other forum with people interacting with enthusiasm as much as here.

@Mohansrides - your responses are well thought and hope people coming through this thread read and consider options without any confirmation bias.
I lived in the US for a decade from 2000; you couldn't have said it any better - 'suffered silently'.
As a young early 20s starting my career i was pretty much under modern slavery.

I was given bare minimum wages permitted under H1 with no increment for 4 years.
This one time when I mentioned in all my dumbness about a competitor company paying higher hourly wages, I was threatened to be deported.
I moved out of US in 2011 and have had a better life. This was reinforced when I spent 3 months in the US before covid.

I would like to believe people are much better than me in the last 10 years and have better situational awareness to deal with people.
I also think we humans "create" problems and then "solve" them with decisions.

As few have touched on, life will be a different flavor, not necessarily a better one. (to the car analogy someone mentioned in one of the posts- i would say it's m800 non-ac to m800 ac - you will have the same problems with convenience of AC)

PS: I will write a longer post with the experiences.

[aneezan]

We moved to the Netherlands last year, hence, thought of sharing what we've gone through over the past 14 to 15 months.

Both of us were earning reasonably well in India. Settled in Bangalore for the last 11 years, life was very comfortable. The thought of moving to another country had rarely crossed our minds. One day, I got a call from a HR of a company headquartered in the Netherlands. Having seen my profile on Linkedin, their team wanted to have a discussion. On first thought, I would have rejected the call, however, just out of curiosity, and not having attended interviews for a long time, I said OK. Over the next few weeks I had about 4 rounds of interviews after which I had a great offer in my inbox. Only then did it sink-in that this was a country move. We discussed at length about it, and then decided to go ahead only if my wife got an offer too, which we definitely didn't expect to happen, but to our surprise, the same company, processed her profile and another good offer landed in her lap after a couple of weeks. The ball was in our court.

After a lot of discussions, investigations, etc with some friends already in the Netherlands, we decided to take the plunge. Primarily two reasons stood out. Having worked very hard for the past few years, i realized I literally had no family time. I rarely get to spend some time with my kids. Yes, we have the weekends, but that just wasn't enough, because one of us is tied up with our laptops even then. We wanted to spend the evenings with them, playing or teaching or just having plain fun. We realized that with our type of job profile, it would be difficult. Secondly, the move opened up various opportunities for our kids in the future. With these on top of our minds, we decided to take the risk. Visa processing, tickets, shifting, moving the entire house(almost), was ultra smooth and all taken care of by the company. We found ourselves at Amsterdam airport on a cold, wintry December morning.

The stages of emigrating would have been discussed here multiple times, but we too went through them. Infact, we had classes on the same: Honeymoon, Frustration, Adjustment and Acceptance. After almost a year, we are still learning to live here as a family. Overall, quality of life has been excellent.
- We got our car in the first 3 months and moved into our own house a couple of months back.
- Work-life balance is excellent. I spend a lot of time now with my family. Meaning actually doing an activity with them, whether playing, cycling, visiting places etc. I missed this a lot earlier
- Education model is good. No pressure on kids. Culture is to "team-up" and learn rather than "stand-out individually"
- Work culture is very transparent and non-hierarchical
- Close knit South Indian community

Others not so much:-
- Healthcare is good, but only if its severe or an emergency. Normal sickness/fever would just have to be treated at home or with an appointment at the local General Physician. Emergency cases are handled immediately. After having seen this, maybe, we overdo it in India? Not sure.
- We have to do everything ourselves, handiman work must be learnt.
- Cold weather. Its a hassle to get ready during Winter.
- However, for both of us personally, the biggest and only negative to our move is being away from our parents. We miss them terribly. They are one flight away from us and we can work from India in-case of emergency, but the fear that something should happen always hangs over our heads. However, we also took flight knowing that both our siblings are with them and that provides a big cushion to the pressure on us.

On the whole, we are happy to have moved. We of-course miss our friends, and definitely the food, but when I look at the bigger picture, I think we made the right move. But to each, his own I guess.

[narayans80]

Originally Posted by aneezan

Healthcare is good, but only if its severe or an emergency. Normal sickness/fever would just have to be treated at home or with an appointment at the local General Physician. Emergency cases are handled immediately. After having seen this, maybe, we overdo it in India?

Based on my experience with Italy, and I expect NL will be similar...

Emergency walkin is for real emergency only. You'll get assigned color codes depending on your condition's severity.

I've only visited 2 times in the 5.5 years I lived. First time I landed with a bad flu and was in semi conscious state, when I was attended in 10 minutes. Second time was with diarreah when I had to wait for an hour or 2.

For everything else you'll have to go through your general physician. Pretty sure you have this medical code that your GP will give for applying medical leave. Visit to any speciality would be through him/her and that's through appointment only, which takes its own sweet time.

Ofcourse you don't spend a dime for all this. And this includes pregnancy and delivery as well.

You are comparing public healthcare in NL with private in India. You'll have private healthcare in NL too, but that might cost a lot per sitting.

Cold weather. Its a hassle to get ready during Winter.

This you'll get used to in a year or 2

[maddy42]

Originally Posted by mohansrides

All I know is that people out of jobs and out of luck in the past never had it so good to bring visibility to their plight. During the early 2000s and even during the first decade of this century, every single H1B out-of-jobber just suffered silently [lost earnings, assets, and future opportunities (due to legal wrangles); and in some cases lost families due to divorce and/or relocation].

H1B is a slave visa especially from an indian perspective. Majority pay just the base salaries for years, promotions or growth prospects are restricted and if you loose your status and get sent back, your grade or salary doesnt match to indian standards.

If you were able to crack the glass ceiling good for you, else its tough luck.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by aneezan

- Healthcare is good, but only if its severe or an emergency. Normal sickness/fever would just have to be treated at home ... After having seen this, maybe, we overdo it in India? Not sure.

Haha... My Indian wife is always wanting to take me to the doctor the minute my temperature rises above normal. She regards 100-101F as an emergency: I regard 103F as time for medical help. Unless I feel really dreadful anyway.

I look after myself as long as I feel that I can.

1. I lived alone, in London, for previous 12 years.

2. Getting to a GP urgently? One had to persuade the receptionist that one was dead already!

[aneezan]

Originally Posted by narayans80

..
You are comparing public healthcare in NL with private in India. You'll have private healthcare in NL too, but that might cost a lot per sitting.

This you'll get used to in a year or 2

Yes, Its private by default in Bangalore. I have visited public health centers while in my hometown(in TN) and found them far better managed.

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Haha...

My daughter fell ill(fever of about 102) a couple of months after we arrived. We called the GP and after telling the receptionist her symptoms for few minutes, the response was: "Is she conscious? And if she's talking, its fine." We were shocked, but have got used to this now.

[narayans80]

Originally Posted by aneezan

My daughter fell ill(fever of about 102)

How old is she?

Kids < 6 years were assigned a pediatrician. For kids > 6 years it is the GP.

We've never run into an extreme situation where kids had to be taken to emergency. Usually fever medicine and book an appointment with the pediatrician. The anecdotes quoted were for 30 something adult who can stand it.

I've seen kids been given priority in emergency (again condition dependent) over adults.

January/February is flu season year-on-year. As my Italian colleagues used to joke, kids goto school for virus exchange program. I remember once, there were only 6 out of 22 kids in my daughters' class

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

1. I lived alone, in London, for previous 12 years.
2. Getting to a GP urgently? One had to persuade the receptionist that one was dead already!

Have seen my family members experience this last month in Cambridge.

What would have been a case of immediate in-patient admission in India wasn't considered a case fit to be attended to by the NHS doctor. A lot of entreaties and persuasions later, they were only able to have a paramedic/health worker pay them a visit at their house.

This when the sufferers were two kids aged two and seven!

This might appear incoherent or even insensitive to us in India. But with the kind of pressure NHS is in - going by the reports in media - it seems very much necessary and fair too.

Originally Posted by aneezan

Close knit South Indian community

This has been a constant phenomenon across different countries that my near and dear ones have moved into. I often ask them to try and make friends with the natives and foreigners and not just stick to people from their own geography. But I am regularly told that these Indian communities are what sustains them emotionally in the far off lands and that I, living in India, wouldn't perhaps be able to appreciate the importance of that.

[UP!!!!]

Originally Posted by aneezan

The stages of emigrating would have been discussed here multiple times, but we too went through them. Infact, we had classes on the same...

That is so spot on. The only things that I miss here is being close to family and street food . Rest everything is just good.

On a side note, I'm also living in Eindhoven. Happy to connect with fellow BhPian if you're interested.

[turbowhistle]

Originally Posted by dailydriver

This has been a constant phenomenon across different countries that my near and dear ones have moved into. I often ask them to try and make friends with the natives and foreigners and not just stick to people from their own geography. But I am regularly told that these Indian communities are what sustains them emotionally in the far off lands and that I, living in India, wouldn't perhaps be able to appreciate the importance of that.

It's a kind of two way sword in my opinion and experience. It's a good feeling but at the same time stops you from intergrating or understanding the culture of the country you are in.

We had the same inital phase when we moved to Germany 4 years back and almost several months later I realised we were in an Indian bubble friends/community wise and had to make conscious effort to break out of that.

[aneezan]

Originally Posted by dailydriver

living in India, wouldn't perhaps be able to appreciate the importance of that.

We try to make friends with the locals too, but we feel much more happier and comfortable when we connect with our folks here.

Originally Posted by UP!!!!

On a side note, I'm also living in Eindhoven. Happy to connect with fellow BhPian if you're interested.

Great to know. Will PM.

Originally Posted by turbowhistle

...back and almost several months later I realised we were in an Indian bubble friends/community wise and had to make conscious effort to break out of that.

I think the best way is to connect with immediate neighbors. Normally, we travel further to connect with Indian community than we do with our neighbors, just because! We have Dutch, Turkish, Brazilian and Surinamese neighbors, all nice to have a conversation with, helpful, and greet us with a smile every day. I guess its on us to make an effort and make the connections.

[turbowhistle]

Originally Posted by aneezan

I think the best way is to connect with immediate neighbors. Normally, we travel further to connect with Indian community than we do with our neighbors, just because! We have Dutch, Turkish, Brazilian and Surinamese neighbors, all nice to have a conversation with, helpful, and greet us with a smile every day. I guess its on us to make an effort and make the connections.

Absolutely, thanks to DHL and Amazon many parcels for my neighbours land at my door as they know I work from home always so that was an easy way to start conversation, also Indian food is an easy way to make friends.

Our experience has been even better in Berlin since it's an expat friendly city, We have more non-indian friends now and the sense of belonging even as an expat is finally there. I feel at home equally in Berlin as I would in Mumbai these days.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by narayans80

You'll have private healthcare in NL too, but that might cost a lot per sitting.
)

No, there is virtually no private care or private health insurance available in the Netherlands. Every single person in the Netherlands comes under our National Health insurance. Everybody needs to pay the premium.

You might find private clinics on things like cosmetic surgeries. But even a lot of alternative medicines and alternative treatments are covered by the Dutch National health system.

Everybody has the same basic care, you can opt to take a more comprehensive insurance. E.g. whether you take dental insurance or not.

By and large the Dutch system is probably pretty good. But many foreigners are often confused. You need to see your GP to get a referral for a specialist. You can’t make an appointment with a specialist without a referral.

Also, the Dutch take a very relaxed attitude to not feeling well. Nobody will bother their GP about simple things. Expats will tell you they visited their GP multiple times only to be told to go home, take some rest, take some aspirin and if it gets worse or isn’t gone in a week call again.

Doctor and hospital visits in India often are family affairs. I learned the hard way. I had to see a special in Delhi. I showed up at about 10 minutes prior to my appointment. I had to pay even before seeing the doctor. The waiting room was absolutely packed, so I thought I was going to be a while. But I noticed that whenever somebody was called at least 3-5 people would get up and go into the respective doctor’s room.

When my name was called, the doctor was waiting at the door, I shook his hand and he looked very confused, looked around me to make sure nobody was following.

Jeroen

[ruturaj001]

I moved to US in 2013. Student life was tough initially, no car, buses were not frequent enough so I had to walk about 1.5 km even in winters, winters were pretty horrible in Rochester NY due to lake effect.

In 2015, I got internship and life improved a little as I started worrying less about money, some friends had purchased a car who helped out once in while to get groceries. Next one semester back at school was a breeze.

In 2016, got another 6 month internship, I purchased a used car, Mitsubishi Galant (drove it for 50,000 miles in next 3 years). Parents decided to visit that year in Summer, drove all over east coast with them in 2 months and was back to School for one last semester.

In 2017, Started my full time job in nearby City. Winters were not as bad as previous place. I started mountain biking, then later joined a local group. Had fun riding bikes in Summers for 2 years.

In late 2018, I moved to warmer region in North Carolina. I thought I would like warmer climate but I didn't. I spent 1.5 year there and purchased a sensible but attractive car at the end of the year, 2019 Kia Stinger. It was a blast with 365hp and torque was amazing on it. For future proofing I got AWD.

In 2020, I made one more move, and joined company in Seattle WA. This was the city I never wanted to move to but the pay I got was pretty good. The weather was supposed to be gloomy, but summers were actually pretty good. I was riding my bike through out year, summers were not too host, with proper clothing I could easily ride in winters.

In early 2021, I decided to try snowboarding and fell in love with that. Spent all winter snowboarding. One day went for bike ride, lost balance and broke my leg. My then girlfriend and now wife, was with me. She called emergency line, firefighters got there then an ambulance, they took me to hospital. Due to covid, hospital sent me back in 2 hours. It was painful weekend at home even with pain pills. I went in to Surgery to install metal plates on Monday, and was out the next day early morning. I started physical therapy, and got in to shape. Got married at end of the year and came back.

In early 2022 this year, I spent most of the time snowboarding (yes, recovered so well). Placed an order for 2023 Subaru BRZ MT. Then went in to another surgery to get hardware removed. In September I finally got the car I ordered and had a blast driving it. It's been 6 months from Surgery. I can run, ride a bike, drive a manual transmission car and would spend this winter snowboarding.

[dheer4]

Hey T-BHP'ians!,

I want to seek advice from the members as I have plans to move to either the US or the European Union to pursue masters in Data Science next year.

My profile is really good and I'm pretty sure I can get into good universities across the US and Europe.

The main dilemma I'm currently facing is the uncertainty of H1-B after graduation and the fat tuition fee in the US. Even if I get an Assistantship after a semester, I don't want to take on lot of debt to pursue a masters which may leave me with little to no savings after loan if H1-B isn't picked (3 Year OPT).

I want to ask the members if the European Union is worth immigrating to and also the growth aspects in the tech field. I was mostly looking at Netherlands, Austria, Germany for universities. I know the US pays really well, but have no exposure or knowledge about these countries. Also, as the EU has strict data protection laws, I really don't know the future of data science in these countries.

I would appreciate any guidance and help!