[hdus001]

Originally Posted by mohansrides

One more thing. In India, a huge mitigating factor is the availability and affordability of help. This is another aspect that no one talks about. You don't have to do everything yourself; and you don't have to earn 1 Cr to afford meaningful assistance.

I kind of see this as a huge positive in the west, that the minimum wage works well and everyone, even household help ("servants"), are able to earn a living wage where they can have their own cars, maintain their own home, send kids to school, take vacations etc.

Of course this means people have to be more self sufficient, and find ways of making things simpler (say no elaborate meals but keep it simple & nutritious) using automation where possible (eg robot vaccums, automatic watering for garden, cordless kitchen devices like choppers etc). In the longer run I think this is the way to go.

What I observe here is that even very wealthy people who could easily afford full-time help choose to do things themselves. This extends to even other things like fixing things around the house - I'm impressed by my colleagues who seem to know how to paint their own house, fix plumbing etc, and wish I had learnt all this when younger. Actually one of my wife's colleagues, an endodontist in his 60's who likely has a 7 figure income, on hearing that we were planning to tarmac our driveway offered to come over and do it for us, "just get a case of beer". We didn't take up the offer but he certainly seemed to know how to do it, what equipment to hire, where to get them from, the steps to do etc. My boss (a CTO) just took 2 days off last week, to build a deck in his garden. I think this culture of doing things oneself gets ingrained early on. The other day we were visiting a friend (herself a surgeon, and married to a surgeon too), and when her 3-yr old said he was hungry, she just asked the kid to make a sandwich for himself. She helped, by opening the cupboards/fridge/getting things from higher shelves etc, but the little kid did most of the work. So now he has a skill that will come in handy for life. Compare this to a situation where the fawning mother or "servants" did things for him.

The cheap household help situation only works when there is a large pool of people poor enough to work for cheap for a smaller wealthy group, I'm guessing they wouldn't do this job if they had other choices, I see this more as a failure of the society.

Just last week, the sis-in-law from Orissa was on the phone whinging about how she had to do a lot of household work this week as one of her (many) servants is sick. I couldn't help thinking about that servant's life, how she's managing her own home, getting kids ready for school etc in addition to starting her employer's household chores by 7 am.

[KL54]

I'm not sure about ready availability of house-hold help in India . My parents and in-laws in KL have been looking for household help but its just not possible to get hold of one. Maybe it is reflective of the socio-economic situation in KL (less poverty, preference for semi-skilled jobs like shop assistants or security even if they don't pay as much as a maid can get in places like Kochi).

I am now happily settled in Hobart, Tasmania having bought property just before the prices started soaring to low earth orbit last year. I have had to learn quite a few skills required around the home - painting, weatherproofing, fixing furniture, hanging a 75" TV, laying cable, gardening, light masonry, preventative maintenance, roofing, tree pruning, landscaping, and so on. This is due to the fact that tradies (short for tradespeople) here are expensive, hard to get and you can't be sure if they will mess it up as most of the good ones have run off to the mainland (Australia). When you have no alternative, you do what you have to do.

And you also get to buy the tools required - this place is heaven for DIYers and you can get anything you need from Amazon Prime, specialty trade super centres and of course good, old FB Marketplace.

[hothatchaway]

While I am a big votary of doing things on your own, or at least trying to, it is no longer easy to get good domestic help/skilled tradesmen in the major cities in India, at least not at throwaway wages any longer and that is a positive development. Also, India is wayyy more affordable not only for the well to do white collar folks, but also for the working class. So even at wage levels that seem low by Western standards, the lifestyle of the working class in India is steadily improving

Let us not glamorize the so called minimum wage in the US/Canada. The high cost of essentials and astronomic rentals make a mockery of that. That is why millions in the US have to work multiple jobs just to live paycheck to paycheck. I don't think a couple drawing minimum wage can even survive in any of the major North American cities.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by download2live

A "cautious" contribution to this thread.
But there is a vast majority of people out there who are mediocre. Who do not want and also will never reach those 1cr paying CTO jobs in unicorn startups. Or who do not want and will never be the VP. And who never will be able to work rent free from their hometown. But they still have to pay school fees, tackle medical emergencies and plan for a nest egg. It is difficult.

Originally Posted by vibbs

it's an individual opinion based on his/her circumstances just as mine is. And each person who plans of relocating outside needs to consider his/her situation.

Thank you for these balanced nuanced posts in a sea of preaching from both sides. A lot has been said on these pages so I'll avoid a repetition of any of those points.

NRI $ remittances: NRI $ remittances have played a very significant part in building capital in India at the family level and shoring up our FX reserves from 1975 to 2000 when our FX position was always precarious. They still remit and it is still a useful source but in those 25 years it was a lifeline. In those days it pained my heart that those humble Indians returning from the Gulf with a mattress would be harassed by our wretched Customs Dept. NRIs are and will increasingly become an arm of a resurgent India bringing back or sending back their learnings, capital, entrepreneurship and more - civic sense please guys, please send it too. In the 1970s or 1980s an Indian migrating to the West was gone for good except for the monthly hand written letter. Not so anymore with modern communications. Indians who stay back gets antsy about emigration at least partly because of the look down the nose tone adopted by some of us who emigrate to the West. We've all experienced it. In the overall scheme of things that is a minor irritant. Not all are like that either.

The only thing which is painfully impossible is caring for parents in their old age. I still have not figured out what to do. It is a thought which keeps nagging me and honestly I have found no solutions to this.

Looking after the aged: This is a challenge especially if you do not have a sibling in India who is willing to take this up. Sometimes 'being in India to look after your aged parents' is an overstated line. I see around me any number of aged relatives whose well to do and not so well to do children living in India not looking after them and at least in two cases treating their parents rather shabbily simply because the older person was no longer financially independent. I've seen a cousin living in his aged mother's flat and then treating her like dirt. My wife and me are age wise in the twilight zone where we are on the last lap on looking after our aged and at least some of our cousins are in the 'aged who need looking after' bucket. All four of our parents lived with us in the last years of their lives; three have moved on over the horizon. We are blessed with ample resources. Yet mind you looking after the old, even when they are ok health wise, is a huge challenge. It taxes you emotionally, mentally, physically etc. And for those of modest means it taxes you financially too. Old people, some of them at least, get more and more difficult to manage as they age - tantrums, egos, very large egos, stubbornness, and what have you. And I'm not even talking yet of the physical aspects like attending to their needs for bathing, feeding, nursing, hospitalizations etc. So while it is a good reason to state for not migrating not all take this up.

Domestic help: I believe, others may disagree that as the Indian per capita rises from around $1700 today to say $3000 the pool of domestic staff willing to work will change over to the Singapore model - part time, more professional, more self-respecting, less tolerant of feudal attitudes etc. All good I'd say. It is probably 10 years away. As member @benbsb29 writes - no one works as a domestic out of choice. In many ways it is happening already. Folks like me who are the arch typical patriarchs are going to be in deep trouble soon!

[ninjatalli]

Originally Posted by mohansrides

One more thing. In India, a huge mitigating factor is the availability and affordability of help. This is another aspect that no one talks about. You don't have to do everything yourself; and you don't have to earn 1 Cr to afford meaningful assistance. As much as we helped our families, our kind maid/s helped us. Me and my 3 year old were living out of a makeshift tent in our living room while our doting maid kept us fed all the while reporting back to HQ. In the US, you could have a high flying career, but you have to do everything yourself. Even if you make USD 200k, it is not really possible to afford help which has a huge mitigating effect on the rigors of life.

While I agree with the rest of your post, I'd say this upfront - let's not gloat/be happy about the dynamics of what worked over the last few decades and will work for probably a decade more at max. The availability of your maid (and it probably is true for my maid and others in this forum) is there because of the poverty dynamics that still exists in India but thankfully is improving year on year. Also aspirations are increasing across all segments, including those that fill up the 'local help'.

A few examples
- The local ironing lady with a 'shop' near where my parents live has been serving that entire street for over a decade with pick & drop of clothes offered, is currently moving out (good for her!) with her son educated & working and currently with ambitions (or pursing) an MBA.

- A lot of the local 'help' roles (across metros) is being taken up by out of state workers as localities are moving up the chain.

- my parent's maid of over 30 years has two sons. Unfortunately neither of them completed their education but their daughters are thankfully finishing college and already on the lookout for jobs. Both her sons do odd jobs but refuse to take up work that we offer in the house, and only take it up if they have nothing else to do.

- my maid in Bombay had huge plans for her kids. We helped her fill up forms to move her kids from a govt school to a private (and a much better) school; both parents were taking up extra jobs and means to support this.


While help (for us & elders) overseas is a different ball game than what we see here on a daily basis, it isn't as black and white as you put it. And this is a good development - the middle & upper classes have benefitted for ages due to the larger 'help' availability; much more than the other way around. Let's just not take it for granted wrt the local situation. Things are changing (for the better of everyone).

[mohansrides]

Originally Posted by hdus001

The cheap household help situation only works when there is a large pool of people poor enough to work for cheap for a smaller wealthy group, I'm guessing they wouldn't do this job if they had other choices, I see this more as a failure of the society.

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

A few examples...

Believe it or not, I had this reply largely drafted to post at the first poke which you gentlemen so kindly provided.

I was waiting for someone to come and start lecturing me on this topic. Here's the thing though. How does it matter? This thread is about the processes and procedures of moving abroad and about the advantages and disadvantages that one has on either side.

Having access to household help IS an advantage and everyone knows it. But, of course, a few will see it as as their duty to lecture sanctimoniously about how this system is deplorable.

Let me ask you this. Did any of us institute this system? Did we force anyone to work for us? The system exists. It is legal. It is consensual. Everyone uses it. Even those who lecture will have maids in their own houses in India; and still they won't miss an opportunity to position themselves with moral uptitude.

By the way, I too am very happy that all of our maids' next generations are headed up. I myself helped my maid's daughter get into Accenture for her first job after her graduation. But, that's not the point here in this thread.

What's important is that such upward trajectories for the children happened because their previous generation did the job of working in houses. Why, if we are honest with ourselves, we will acknowledge that even our own positions are a function of long journeys that our parents and grandparents made from very humble, even poor, economic situations. Someone somewhere in my family did jobs that I don't have to today. I am, of course, thankful to them for it. But, that isn't the end of it. More below.

I have two things to say about this overarching tone that domestic help jobs are menial and that we are perpetuating a terrible system. Let us examine what exactly is menial.

a.) Every person, institution, and society makes the same trek. India's IT industry has matured a lot. But, if we carefully trace back the lines and look at the origins of this industry that has lifted so many out of poverty, we will find that for the longest time, we did the low and menial equivalent of IT work of the world. We did the repetitive, non-value adding, low fidelity, grunt work of the big software giants of the world because someone had to do it. If those companies had devoted their resources to do such work themselves, they wouldn't have been able to chart course to build the next things that shaped our societies. Essentially we, including myself, were the IT maids of the whole world. In fact, for those who remember all the stuff that was written back then, "IT Coolies" was the popular sound byte for Indian workers.

b.) The notion that if our maids had a choice, they wouldn't do this job is absolutely correct. What is incorrect is the position that that alone makes their job menial and their employers deplorable. Let us ask ourselves these questions -

i.) First, if any of us truly had a choice, would we be in the jobs we are? I mean if each of us had enough money to not worry about money for a generation or two, or three, would we still work in the jobs we do?

ii.) Next, why is there that popular tagline for entrepreneurship "Why work for someone else, when you can work for yourself?" Does that line exist inspite of our self-affirmation that we have arrived in our societies with our so-called non-menial jobs? Or does that tagline exist because no one really likes working for anyone, no matter what the job or pay is; period?

Our jobs aren't considered menial. But, no one; not a single person here would have answered that they want to be a "Consultant" or a "PM" or a "VP" in some corporate cage when they were asked by their parents and teachers about what they wanted to be when they grew up. The jobs that we all do are pure drudgery for 99% of us. We slave through them to provide for our kids. We try to find some joy by buying things we like with the money we earn (cars, bikes, etc.); and we try to salvage respect by using our designations which are largely meaningless. The only thing that matters is that we are able to provide for our families. That is all.

So, essentially all these definitions on what's menial, and what isn't, are just a function of one's choice of perspective.

A long long time ago I watched a painter selling his sketches on the streets of NYC. The work was stunning. He told me that he made around USD 1k a month which is not enough anywhere in the US, let alone NYC. So, I put my desi hat on and suggested alternatives. I told him that with a small investment in a course in graphic design, he would be on his way to a career and a much higher paycheck. He looked at me strangely and said, "This is what I do man." Conversation over. I kicked myself for offering advise to one of the most sorted people on the planet. He knew what he wanted to do and wasn't in the least bit worried or disappointed with his life. It was not him who needed counsel. It was me.

Fast forward to 2022 and some MBA admissions office asked me to write about what I wanted to do. I told them if I knew what I wanted to do, I would be out there doing it, and not writing an essay on what it is.

Another friend in HR asked me the same question again and framed it in terms of what role I wanted to play. He is a friend; so I chose to be direct. I said, if someone paid me 50 or 60 lacs to stand at the entrance and open the office door for people, I would happily do it.

So, not for me, the artificial layers to gain respectability and rose colored glasses to look at myself. I have been through enough to recognise my truths.

Everybody is somebody's menial worker.

I myself see no meniality in any of the work done by my maids. If we have the time, we finish some or most of the work because we can't bear to see the house in a mess. That's one of the reasons our maids never leave. The way we see is that it's a job. Someone has to do it. We mostly don't have the time. So, we pay someone to do it. That really is all there is to it in my mind. We don't mistreat or ill-treat them. On the contrary, most maids who work for us are paid very well and don't leave unless their geography changes. In fact, our maids got paid in full even during the long periods of nightmarish lockdowns. It's another thing that they sometimes insisted that we not pay them as they hadn't worked. That amazed us. But, we insisted and paid as we know how far that money goes in each of their households.

I know I have deviated from the course of this thread. But, no apologies will be forthcoming. Someone else started this digression with an argument on the value systems of our society. I simply responded.

P. S.

By the way, I have consciously chosen not to mention anecdotes of NRIs; yes, many of them who lecture on the social status quo in India, shipping their old parents to their houses in the US to work essentially as domestic help when the grandchildren get born. Such trips are typically cloaked in layers of respectability and familial bonds. But, underneath all that is the desperate need for help for the new parents in a society that offers none in their affordability range. There are enough and more of such stories and we all know them.

Cheers

[sunilch]

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

While I agree with the rest of your post, I'd say this upfront

Originally Posted by KL54

I'm not sure about ready availability of house-hold help in India .

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Thank you for these balanced nuanced posts in a sea of preaching from both sides. A lot has been said on these pages so I'll avoid a repetition of any of those points.

Originally Posted by hdus001

I kind of see this as a huge positive in the west, that the minimum wage works well and everyone, ....

Originally Posted by mohansrides

Belive it or not, I had this reply largely drafted to post at the first poke which you gentlemen so kindly provided.

Gentlemen, we are diverting from the topic here and also getting into unnecessary discussion (from my point of view of course).

The ask [for this thread] was to understand the advantage and disadvantage of moving abroad for settlement or job Now/Today. The discussion has been clear with many members (including myself) clearly stating the same and also putting in a disclaimer that this purely depends upon:

1) What one wants at this point of their life?
2) What they feel is worth taking a risk today in their life given their own priorities?

Let us keep it to that and not divulge into what may happen 15-20 years from now at a 'Society' level and also why things are the way they are today. We all are mature enough to understand that already.

Just a request, no offence intended.

[am1m]

Consider the plight of someone who comes to this thread thinking they'll get some practical advice on the emigration process from people who have been through it recently. Instead they get lectured for daring to think about leaving the motherland, reminiscences of bad experiences from decades ago, and similarly exaggerated replies from people who have emigrated but are forced to respond in kind to posts questioning the rationality of their decisions.

Perhaps we could accept that this thread is for people who have more or less decided to emigrate for whatever reason and are looking for practical advice?

[careind]

Turned out to be a bigger post!

I think it is best to prioritize strictly on what one wants NOW.
I think the biggest 3 factors would be (generically)
1) Earning money.
2) Caring for your family members.
3) Support structure.
in that order (mostly).

As someone said, you cant have the cake and eat the cake.

So keep your priorities clear on 1) and 2) and decide.

There are a NUMBER of sub-factors that influence these factors, for example your spouse's priority may not follow your priority order and there are children (their age) et. al.

From my life experiences:
I have a close knit family and had decided quite early that I would not be moving to any foreign land for earning money. After 25 years, I dont regret it. and I did not have any wealth to fall back on when I started.

One of my friends also had a close knit family and he decided to go to SG in 2006. But his parents were 16 years younger then. He had justified that he would put a stint in SG for 5 years as it was almost equivalent to being in Bangalore or Pune vis-a-vis proximity to family in India. His original plan was to earn for 5 years. Now it is the 16th year since he went. His kids are 12 and 9 and he wants to come back as he cannot procrastinate it any more.

One of my other friends had a REALLY close knit family. To illustrate it, even when in college (back in 2000) he used to travel 600 KMs round trip by bus to be with his family on every weekend. He emigrated to Australia just to be with his sibling's family and then to Europe when they migrated again. Now he is in Singapore as parents have aged and its proximity to India justifies his domicile.

There are quite a few others who went to UK on an HSMP and just settled there.
There are quite a few others who went to US and just settled there.
There were a few others who made it their life's mission to step foot on UK or US soil, come what may and they are now citizens.

In actuality, what you think now as your priority would not be your priority 5 years hence and so on.

Money is a powerful motivator.

But based on Abraham Maslow's pyramid, it ceases to be a motivator after some time.
Lifestyle becomes a new motivator. Then after that probably sentiments/self-realizations, and that is when we start asking these questions.

Everybody HAS to go through theses phase as a part of the emigration journey and depending on which phase of the journey the person you are asking the question is in, you will get replies of varying kind at varying degrees of accentuation.

Many many of my friends who are NRIs speak about how they are thinking whether it is worth it to stay in a foreign land, during their nights.

And after that conversation, they pickup their car keys, go to the subway for a midnight snack, go to COSTCO and pick up some essentials, park their car in the garage, put on some music in the system, stream some movie from hulu/apple TV, sleep and awake to start off their routine.

I feel that lifestyle/routine wins over pangs of love and emotion for people back in your homeland.

Would love to hear about whether all those people who felt the pang and recorded here in this journal of sorts years before did anything at all about it or went back to their routine once they submitted the soul wrenching responses. But I have a feeling majority would have gone back to routine.

So, baseline is that we decide on what is our priority now and journey through the phases and show remorse then - and then continue with the routine.

[Theyota]

Folks, seeking some references here. I see that some of you have returned to India from the US or have moved to a 3rd country. If you are still filing tax returns in the US, I would appreciate if you could share references of your tax consultant you use for filing your returns. Thank you.

[hydraulicsteer]

A very relevant article for this thread. Must read for all. Articulates a lot of reality.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/settl...s-shubham-basu

[drmohitg]

A doctor's perspective

I have been a silent reader of this thread for a long time and felt now is a good time to share my thoughts on the same. I moved to the UK last year after having worked in India for close to 6 years post my Postgrad training. For all these years, I was working at one of the best tertiary care corporate set up in Delhi NCR. I will just try and share my 2 cents on this topic.

Pros
1. Great work-life balance: This has to be at the very top of the list and is a big advantage. This is even more applicable for a medico as in India we have a 6-day work week if you are in a salaried job. For others who have their own clinics/hospitals etc., it is a 7-day work week. Most of my colleagues back home who have their own setup work on Sunday. The fact is work is worship there and if you are not open on a Sunday, you lose out on patients since others in your vicinity are open and the patient would go to them. And trust me this struggle is real. This becomes even more prominent if you are in a field like radiology/pathology etc. where you are depending on referrals from your colleagues in Medicine/Surgery etc. I have had the pleasure of working with some of the most eminent doctors in their fields in India, and trust me, their work hours are even more strenuous and over the years I felt they have just dedicated their life to work.

In the UK, a usual work week is 40 hours. Beyond that, you would not be disturbed by even a phone call or an email. Weekends are off! You are ofcourse expected to cover nights and weekends on a rota basis. But the difference here is that they hire ample number of staff. For example, I am expected to do only 25% of the amount of work that I used to do in India on a usual work day. What this translates into is that the doctor stays motivated and eager to perform to his or her best, leading to much better patient results. In fields where you cover more night calls, you are aptly compensated in form of rest days and pay supplements.

Applying for leaves: Throughout my training and then work-life, this used to be a herculean task. You had to plead, make excuses and overall it was an extremely stressful time till your leaves would be granted. And that too for a very limited number of days. For example, just yesterday I was talking to a batchmate who is a paediatrician in a leading hospital in Delhi. I asked him to plan a holiday to UK, and he was said the maximum he would be allowed to leave would be 7-8 days. For me, this is unacceptable and amounts to harassment. In the UK, it is very transparent and straightforward. You apply for your leaves, 6 weeks in advance, and it would be processed 99% of the times. The biggest difference is that they simply cancel your patient list for those days instead of making your colleagues work double in order to cover for your absence. In India, you cover for your colleague and an already overworked person gets even more exhausted. This leads to rather cold interactions amongst staff and it is only natural.

2. No hierarchy: Everyone is equal. You are treated as an equal, right from the Janitor to the head of the department. You may find yourself on the same train or walking together to the hospital in fact. No false or undue show of respect based on seniority. Rather treat everyone fairly and equally.

3. Nature and quality of life: Good clean air, clean water, good roads (although some of the roads within the city aren't perfect), and overall sensible city planning. You get parks, chances for lots of outdoor activities, and an overall great social etiquette where people are willing to help you. You start admiring the smallest of things like someone opening the door for you and waiting or people not breaking the queue. You start appreciating nature, and the various seasons such as spring and autumn. Trust me it is an amazing experience.

4. Safety and law enforcement: The fines here are simply backbreaking. Hence, you would think twice before breaking a law, and even then decide not to.

5. Cars: This is only applicable to people on this forum. It is the same feeling like a child going to a theme park. Various options, different routes to buy/loan/lease, and a great road network.

Cons:

1. Away from family: That's the biggest one for me and might be the sole reason why I may shift back or relocate to a different place in the future as and when my parents back home need more active support. No PR or citizenship status for them at least in the UK. Moreover, they feel bored here since all their friends, etc are in India, they know how everything works, language differences, etc.

2. Taxes: It is a lot. But I feel for a salaried person it is the same in India. At least you feel that you are getting something in return here in form of good roads, free school and healthcare.

3. UK healthcare: Although it is free (though you pay a monthly insurance premium in your taxes), the wait times are crazy. For someone who is used to the system in India where you can consult a doctor the same day, it can be challenging here. You may find yourself waiting in the emergency room for close to 4-8 hours at times, of course this is for non-critical illness.

4. Weather: It is cold and rainy. But to be fair, I will any day prefer this over the sweltering heat we have in India.

5. Household chores: You have to do everything yourself. You can use cleaning services, but they are slightly expensive. The more challenging part is to get day-to-day maintenance such as electrician, plumber, carpenter, etc. They are so much in demand and as a result, you may have to wait rather long before someone can come. Charges for these services are quite expensive as well. Over time, most people learn or adapt to do basic stuff on their own.

I will stop here. In the end, I will only say one thing to anyone who is in a dilemma about making the move. I would suggest moving! Go and see if it suits you. I would do that, rather than regret later that I did not give it a shot. You will at least gain some valuable experience in terms of how different societies and cultures function. One can always return back if they don't feel happy and find the same job if not better and with the added caveat of foreign-trained/work-ex!

[narayans80]

Originally Posted by drmohitg

UK healthcare

I lived in Italy, you can choose a general physician (or pediatrician for kids < 6 years) at the time of getting your health card. He would be your primary contact, unless its an emergency. The general physician has some fixed appointment timings, which whom' I went to when I fell ill. The only time I went to emergency, was when I had the flu, when I was attended in < 30 min. The other time I went, took 3 hours. If you walk into an emergency without a real emergency, chances are you'll spend a lot more time waiting.

This is more of an expectation problem than an actual con.

Cars

In UK and mainland Europe, aren't cars expensive? Those in big cities preferred not to own one, due to expensive nature of ownership. In smaller towns, there is no other option but to own a car.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Leaves... Do they grow on trees?

Holiday time in most UK working environments is fairly sacred. If you are entitled to so many weeks in a year, you get so many weeks in a year, and, unless it is your personal choice, you take them.

Some jobs are more pressurised than others, as anywhere. Some employers are fairer than others (also as anywhere). Some are expected to work long hours, but many who work "nine to five" arrive at nine and leave at five. With an hour for lunch.

Of course, everyone knows, or has even had, the boss who turns up at their desk and says, "I need this done now." Ha Ha, not everyone gets to be as bolshy as I was, but my response was likely to be "Then you should have asked me an hour ago. Bye!"

As an IT systems manager, I did put in plenty of extra hours. It goes with the job. A surgeon can't just walk out at 5pm, and a systems manager can't just leave a down server. I once worked 32 hours, over a weekend, to restore a system. And took the Monday morning off. But when I know the guy is just being awkward, it doesn't wash.

[drmohitg]

Originally Posted by narayans80

If you walk into an emergency without a real emergency, chances are you'll spend a lot more time waiting.

Very well said and this should be put across all emergency rooms I believe. even in NHS, there is an ongoing discussion to introduce a small fee to attend emergency in order to discourage people from crowding it when they could have waited and gone to their GP.

In UK and mainland Europe, aren't cars expensive? Those in big cities preferred not to own one, due to expensive nature of ownership. In smaller towns, there is no other option but to own a car.

I think it all depends on what you are comparing those prices to. Compared to USA and Canada, they are costlier. But compared to India, they are cheaper. Plus they age very well due to good roads, parking arrangements and weather conditions. Hence you get a lot of options in the used car market and they really don't show their age.

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

[b]

Of course, everyone knows, or has even had, the boss who turns up at their desk and says, "I need this done now." Ha Ha, not everyone gets to be as bolshy as I was, but my response was likely to be "Then you should have asked me an hour ago. Bye!"

As an IT systems manager, I did put in plenty of extra hours. It goes with the job. A surgeon can't just walk out at 5pm, and a systems manager can't just leave a down server. I once worked 32 hours, over a weekend, to restore a system. And took the Monday morning off. But when I know the guy is just being awkward, it doesn't wash.

Absolutely. It goes without saying that there are times when you need to work out of your usual hours. As a doctor, I find myself doing so from time to time. But the difference is in the attitude. Any extra work you do is appreciated, sometimes you can claim for it as well and this is encouraged by the managers and head of the department too. Moreover, since you are fairly relaxed otherwise, you don't mind going out of your way to help in times of crisis. Last but not the least, as you mentioned above too, you can say NO to anything out of your job plan. In India, you are anyways overworked and frustrated. As a result, any additional work is seen as a pile on. This may not be universally true for everyone but I feel is the usual norm rather than an exception.