[stanjohn123]

The truth is, India is developing but at a very very slow pace. According to me India is a good place to retire ,it's cheap (less taxes) and easy life.

While we are young , it's better to either study or work abroad , earn and live a great lifestyle if we have the means. There is no use of being patriotic to our country , if the country does not want your talent or brains. That's the main reason why many youngsters leave India in the first place. Data proves it.

The sad part here is , youngsters go , settle and even retire abroad itself. The new gen have started selling all their assets here and moving their entire family abroad. I have started seeing this from my close inner circles itself.

Now the sudden influx of our youngsters to these foreign countries is actually scaring them, so much so that they have started rejecting student visa applications as even unskilled people are somehow getting through there. So it clearly shows youngsters are desperate to leave India as soon as possible , no matter how media portrays India as being developed in many sectors and great place to do business etc , except for a few it is just a pipe dream.

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by Samurai

The green card wait for an Indian MBA is 150 years?

https://Youtu.be/Y43Lq8kW4GQ

I didn't understand this, is this for an Indian Citizen who has done his MBA from the US or and Indian Citizen whose has done is MBA from India and then moved to the US ?

For the later if they apply in specific categories like (EB-1C) after a transfer in a MNC it can take 1-2 years and in some cases even less. However these are a small % of total Indian Green Card applicants as most people applicants are on H-1b visas for which the wait time for Indian and Chinese citizens is a decade+.

[Amrik Singh]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

I didn't understand this, is this for an Indian Citizen who has done his MBA from the US or and Indian Citizen whose has done is MBA from India and then moved to the US ?

It is irrelevant whether you have pursued MBA in India or US, the complexity lies in your Country of Birth and 7% Cap on annual intake quota on issuance of GC.
Yes, the longest queue for GC aspirants happen to be from India and China.
Even if an Indian as acquired Citizenship of another country and applies for GC, he will be in the same queue as rest of the Indians. EB1, is the shortest route for acquiring Permanent Residence in US.
I have always advocated for new aspirants to try to meet the criteria and apply through this channel.

[MBond007]

Often people look down upon people who leave for greener pastures. They comment that youngsters should stay back and work for the upliftment of the country. Our forefathers fought with the Brithishers, gave their lives for our freedom. We should be indebted to them and nurture their dreams of a Golden Bharat.

But is it doable?

Let me give you an analogy. Suppose you are in a tank filled with clean water. You have some friends and family members to give you company. Now one day you see that some outsiders are adding filth to your tank. What will you do? You will fight tooth and nails too drive away the outsiders. Some of your friends with also help you in this. After a long struggle you are able to drive away the outsiders. You are happy?, thinking that you will finally enjoy the clean water of the tank. But this happiness of yours is a shortlived one. Soon you realise that some of the people on the tank have found a way to make profits from the filthy water of the tank. They cherish and prefer filthy water over clean water. So, they start shitting and pissing in the tank. Initially, their number was small, but soon more and more people joined the bandwagon. So, what will you do now? Stay in the filthy tank and fight with your fellow tank dwellers? Or just walk away to a neighboring tank filled with clean water?

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

At the risk of getting drawn, quartered and hung on Team BHP I'd say this is good news. Less brain drain.

One of my kids wants to settle in UK/USA {<emoji shuddering>}. My advice to him has been - your career will span the coming 50 years. Pick a country that is on a gentle climb {India} and not one where the peak is well behind it {UK} or one which is losing ground relative to the rest {USA} and is draining its coffers fighting wars it will never win. But of course I understand, grudgingly, that different things motivate each of us.

Dear Narayan sir, for what I believe is the first time, I’ve to disagree with you. India is a rising power, no doubts about that. However, the distance between India and the West is such that it would take atleast 30-40 years for India to get to the GDP per capita of the west today and that’s a big if. We’ve to keep in mind that China was growing twice as fast as India is growing now when they were at our current GDP per capita but they are still only 1/4th as rich as most countries in Western Europe and 1/6th as rich as the US. And just like China today, there is no guarantee that we won’t start stagnating as a middle income country. Growth is not guaranteed anywhere in the world and if growth is the primary driver for emigration, the choice whether to emigrate or stay is a calculated risk.

As for me, I would really like to come back at some point. The only things holding me back are:

1) The politics these days. Growth is one thing but we’ve reached a point where othering certain communities have become mainstream. Offcourse, racism and othering also exists in the west and can also be quite intense in some places but I’ve felt there are more safe spaces in west, especially in ‘liberal cities’ while in India, even the big metros doesn’t entirely feel like safe spaces. If I am going to be othered anyway, might as well in a place that offers a better standard of living.

2) India is just a terrible place to be a women. I’m not married and don’t have any kids but if I happen to have a daughter, I really don’t want to raise her in India. Now again, women’s safety is an issue everywhere and places like the US have been regressing on women’s rights but the terrible truth is that women in India seldom have agency of their own and even those from liberal families will face resistance from the society at large for their lifestyles. This is amplified by the fact that India has one of the lowest female labour participating in the world - lower than countries in the Gulf infact. It’s not surprising if we come out of our upper middle class urban bubbles. If I have a daughter in say, the next 5 years, I wouldn’t have the luxury to wait for 50 years for the situation for women to improve in India

These two points are highly subjective and I have a feeling that most folks here would disagree but these are real issues in the back of my head.

At the end of the day, NRIs and OCIs contribute a lot to nation building in India as well. Last year, the Indian diaspora collectively remitted $100 billion which is slightly lower than the SGDPs of Kerala or West Bengal. The brain drain will automatically get stemmed once India gets richer and the standard of living improves. A cultural shift is also crucial for this as much as an economic/infrastructure improvement.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by stanjohn123

The truth is, India is developing but at a very very slow pace. According to me India is a good place to retire ,it's cheap (less taxes) and easy life.
e , no matter how media portrays India as being developed in many sectors and great place to do business etc , except for a few it is just a pipe dream.

India has very high taxes. The upper income salaried people part with 65% of their income via Direct and Indirect Tax. And this is at source so there is no option but to comply.
The ROI received on such taxes is negative. In fact one is paying tax upon tax - anything one buys attracts tax. A salaried man is paying tax again, for whatever he buys, with his already tax paid income.
There is no social security. Even if one needs health care one has to go ‘private’ and pay fat bills.
And yet in the same breath, there are plenty of people who avoid paying taxes and/ or evade taxes altogether. They simply become richer with each passing day.
The country is absolutely rife with corruption - institutionalised at every step of the way. Our political system is a mess as are our politicians.
We live in congested cities with broken infrastructure and an apathetic set of people governing us. Despite the taxes we pay.
We live with toxic levels of traffic, air, water and environmental pollution daily.
Our population may be considered a strength but with the abject lack of education and an absolute unwillingness to change the status quo, it is a massive liability.
There is talk now about higher representation in parliament and the Armed Forces etc, from the states with higher population. This is not scientific. The states which contribute the maximum in terms of Taxes and Talent are the ones that require proper representation. Else they will get drowned by the sheer weight of numbers from the other states who contribute nothing except ‘bodies’.
We are now finished 76 years as an Independent, Self- Governing Nation, but in all honesty our progress leaves a lot to be desired. This is because of a basic disunity.
Yes, it is still a nice place to live in, if one is well off and/or earning well and/or living in a decent space.
But there are other, better places out there.
So in the end, its only about what floats your personal boat. There cannot be any kind of ‘one-size-fits-all panacea!

[padmrajravi]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

2) India is just a terrible place to be a women. I’m not married and don’t have any kids but if I happen to have a daughter, I really don’t want to raise her in India. Now again, women’s safety is an issue everywhere and places like the US have been regressing on women’s rights but the terrible truth is that women in India seldom have agency of their own and even those from liberal families will face resistance from the society at large for their lifestyles. This is amplified by the fact that India has one of the lowest female labour participating in the world - lower than countries in the Gulf infact. It’s not surprising if we come out of our upper middle class urban bubbles. If I have a daughter in say, the next 5 years, I wouldn’t have the luxury to wait for 50 years for the situation for women to improve in India

+1. This is the sole reason I am considering leaving India. I had the option to settle in Australia and I came back thinking about my parents and all the privileges I had here. My whole thought process changed when I had a daughter and ever since I have had momentary thoughts of regret. One might ask why I did not feel this concern in case of my wife, sister or mother. I don't have an answer to that. I guess it takes a daughter to make a man realize all those privileges he has and how unfair the situation is for women in this country.

[ninjatalli]

Originally Posted by padmrajravi

I guess it takes a daughter to make a man realize all those privileges he has and how unfair the situation is for women in this country.

Originally Posted by dragracer567

As for me, I would really like to come back at some point. The only things holding me back are:

1) The politics these days.

2) India is just a terrible place to be a women.

Wonderful viewpoints. Increasingly I am realizing that the folks in our nation live in their own bubbles unaware of what others in the nation are facing and the reasons for their decisions. And that applies to each and every one of us commenting or reading on this thread.

As for my views, given we are the most populated with hardly enough jobs and resources to support all (at every economic level of the diaspora), a healthy emigration is well deserved and required for our nation as much as the target countries.

[Amrik Singh]

Originally Posted by padmrajravi

My whole thought process changed when I had a daughter and ever since I have had momentary thoughts of regret.

India is growing, no doubts, but so are the worries of netizens. The moment a child is born, he is supposed to be a mature person. He / she loses his/her childhood in learning all that she has to learn in School - just to get admission to Kindergarten. Parents work hard to be the teacher and to save money for paying to the school for admission.
Female foetus is the worst worries of all. A close relative of mine who has hardly stepped outside Punjab or had company of other communities, has a son in Canada. His wife was pregnant and as customary there, they announced the baby to be a girl. My relative informed me of this development and proudly added that he "consoled his son and told him not to worry".
What a shame that I could not say "Shame to you!"

[sunilch]

Originally Posted by padmrajravi

+1. This is the sole reason I am considering leaving India. I had the option to settle in Australia and I came back thinking about my parents and all the privileges I had here. My whole thought process changed when I had a daughter and ever since I have had momentary thoughts of regret.

Originally Posted by dragracer567

2) India is just a terrible place to be a women.

Sorry to be harsh and blunt but you seem to be in a bubble of your own. Many of us have daughters (including myself), my wife and mother have and had careers. My mother, many aunts in extended family worked for 40+ years here - i.e. they had a proper career and are now enjoying pension (old system) rewards after contributing to the company/country for 4+ decades. At no point, we have felt India is more unsafe for Women compared to other countries. Life as a Women is difficult for sure (more so if she is ambitious). Places can be unsafe for Women for sure but no way it is more unsafe in India than many (not all though) other places. Overall safety of a human may be higher on a street in NYC or Sydney or SG but in no way India is as unsafe as you make it sound here.

But I am not sure what experiences you have had in your life and hence don't want to debate. But my experience has been in the India of Cities. Large Metros predominantly or a few tier-2 cities.

[hondatoyotafan]

Originally Posted by sunilch

Sorry to be harsh and blunt but you seem to be in a bubble of your own. Many of us have daughters (including myself), my wife and mother have and had careers. My mother, many aunts in extended family worked for 40+ years here

I am of the same conclusion as yours , the women folk in our family are in many ways much more successful than men. My mom and sister are specialist doctors and i have aunts who run business and real estate ventures running into 100s of crores.

There are many idiots in our country but the west too is not as safe for women as it is touted to be. Just a simple google search about date rape in US campuses will do. Did see a lot of harassment cases in the school where i studied for my masters in the US.

[Amrik Singh]

As far as crime in any land is concerned, there is always a big part which goes unreported. So it would be unfair to target any particular country for this reason.
For innocent victims it is, as said, "To be at the wrong place at the wrong time".

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by sunilch

Sorry to be harsh and blunt but you seem to be in a bubble of your own. Many of us have daughters (including myself), my wife and mother have and had careers. My mother, many aunts in extended family worked for 40+ years here - i.e. they had a proper career and are now enjoying pension (old system) rewards after contributing to the company/country for 4+ decades. At no point, we have felt India is more unsafe for Women compared to other countries. Life as a Women is difficult for sure (more so if she is ambitious). Places can be unsafe for Women for sure but no way it is more unsafe in India than many (not all though) other places. Overall safety of a human may be higher on a street in NYC or Sydney or SG but in no way India is as unsafe as you make it sound here.

But I am not sure what experiences you have had in your life and hence don't want to debate. But my experience has been in the India of Cities. Large Metros predominantly or a few tier-2 cities.

That's the issue though, you are talking about your own bubble (sorry for squeezing the bubble analogy ). If you ask the women in my family, they would probably say the same. Infact, both my grandmothers were in government service and retired with good pensions. The issue is, both of us are from urban upper-middle-class families (I assume) and constitute 1% of India if not less. The only way to see outside our own little bubbles is by using data and data cannot lie. India has terrible female labour participation and it has actually been declining for the past 15 years (see video below) which is an antidote to expectations that we'll have more women working as countries get richer.

The women (mothers, grandmothers etc.) in both our lives who've never left India would certainly be contented enough because they don't know what the other side looks like. Infact, I've met women (from professional spheres) in Saudi Arabia who are quite content with the state of affairs there. Also, it is easier for women in India if they fit into certain conservative boxes BUT if they decide to make their own choices that doesn't fit into these boxes, life can be really hard for them. Even if the families allow these women to make their own choices, the society will still make life hard for them. Women in our lives - mothers, grandmothers etc. probably didn't face this issue since they were taught from an young age to be submissive and fit into the predetermined social norms, even if they did have vibrant careers. It's hard to fit women from our current/future generation into these norms, especially in this inter-connected world with a free flow of information.

Safety is a highly subjective measure and women in India are certainly safer than say Afghanistan or most countries in Sub-Saharan Africa (and maybe even some countries in Latin America) but women in these places might think their society is relatively safe as well. It's all relative till you start comparing places. Since, I've lived in India, Gulf and Europe throughout my life, I have the luxury of making this comparison and it doesn't look good if you compare from the other side.

No country can ever get rich without addressing gender issues first (oil rich Gulf countries are the exception).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYjnW1puu_Y&t=19s

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

At the end of the day, NRIs and OCIs contribute a lot to nation building in India as well. Last year, the Indian diaspora collectively remitted $100 billion which is slightly lower than the SGDPs of Kerala or West Bengal.

Great post and I particularly appreciate the point about the issues faced by the female population. Obviously, some folks could take offence and get defensive.

I have a different take on the remittances from NRI/OCIs being considered as contributing to nation building. I think it’s a side effect and perhaps not the primary intent if that makes sense. I suppose a country exports human capital and gets $100billion remitted back. It’s a good thing indeed. Just keep it transactional and leave the “nation building” and “deserter” tags out of it and it might help to keep the emotions in check.😀

[Jeroen]

Nobody chooses their country of birth, it is just coincidence where you are born and where you grow up. Up until a certain (adult) age you have no say in the matter where you physically reside. So I don’t think you can expect loyalty based on something that was effectively imposed on you, rather than a free choice.

And you certainly can’t fault people from trying to better their life. People have been migrating for that reason alone as long as there have been humans about.

I am all for people moving and roaming around this planet. My wife and I have been doing it for 40 odd years. Initially because of where my wife’s job took us and then where my job took us. In our case each time we knew it was not going to be permanent, but for a 2-4 year period and then move on again. Admittedly, that is different from moving abroad with the intent to make a different country your permanent home country.

Our family, especially my wife’s family live all over the world. She grew up in Barbados, a tiny island in the Caribbean. Nice place to visit but we would not want to live there on a permanent basis. Her brother (I.e. my brother in law) received USA citizenship just last week. He has been living and working there with his family for quite some time. They are very well integrated into American society.

I do believe you need to do more than just live and work in whatever place you find yourself. So I do believe giving back to society in whatever shape or form that might be. It’s not about the society where you are born, it is about the society you happen to live in. You need to ensure you are really participating and contributing. Which is more than go to university, graduate, get a job and pay taxes. Obviously, just my opinion and how I feel what being a resident somewhere on this earth means.

Jeroen