[Thad E Ginathom]

Doc, this is your scene and I have not even been in a British hospital for nearly twenty years. I also know one Chennai doctor who puts in an annual stint with the NHS who absolutely loves his job there.

But I also know at least one junior. A young guy who is now only a couple of years into his post-grad speciality. As a junior, he would definitely have said that long hours and lack of appreciation, and very much being at the bottom of the hierarchical heap, was the order of the day.

Things improve, though. I think I last met him just pre-covid, and when I asked him how things were then, he said that things do get better as he moves up "the food chain" as he is able to give more of the work to others.

By the way, I have huge respect for docs. Not only for the enormous leap of the initial academic success, but for the several years of hardship they have to survive. I was too lazy. And, albeit good at biological sciences, lousy at anything mathematical, and languages, and Latin was required back then.

[drmohitg]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

But I also know at least one junior. A young guy who is now only a couple of years into his post-grad speciality. As a junior, he would definitely have said that long hours and lack of appreciation, and very much being at the bottom of the hierarchical heap, was the order of the day.

I am assuming you are saying that this guy is doing his training here in the UK. If that is correct, let him once do a 2-week stint of the same in India and he will run back to the UK in no time. Yes, training is hard, but here you are still treated as a human and not a robot-like back home. Training there is absolutely back-breaking and after that too, there is no respite.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Thanks doc. Yes, he is working in UK, at one of the big London hospitals.

[MasterChief]

Originally Posted by drmohitg

[b]

3. Nature and quality of life: Good clean air, clean water, good roads (although some of the roads within the city aren't perfect), and overall sensible city planning. You get parks, chances for lots of outdoor activities, and an overall great social etiquette where people are willing to help you. You start admiring the smallest of things like someone opening the door for you and waiting or people not breaking the queue. You start appreciating nature, and the various seasons such as spring and autumn. Trust me it is an amazing experience.

This.

IMHO, this point is the sole reason for which one shall emigrate - quality of life. You can have everything else in India - money and related creature comforts, work-life balance, climate control, and good bosses (only if you have good karma points from your past life ). But, something which nature has given free - clean air to breathe, pure water to drink, nature to enjoy - is missing from our lives. Enjoying nature is so important for the first world that Germans even have a special word for hiking - Wanderlust.

And lesser said about our chaotic traffic, better it is. Sometimes, when I visit the developed world, I sometimes just stand on the roads (of course on the sidewalk) and admire the calm and orderly traffic (no honking - very surprising!), the beautiful architecture (where are the illegal colonies!), no dust and garbage on roads (how do they get their daily dose of vitamins and minerals!), and no stray dogs and cattle (hmm, these animal-haters!). And then I wonder when "my Bharat mahan" will really become mahan so that no one even thinks about emigrating.

[GutsyGibbon]

Originally Posted by drmohitg

2. No hierarchy: Everyone is equal. You are treated as an equal, right from the Janitor to the head of the department.

I just want to share one instance from my engineer life. Back in late 90s, I joined a company growing quickly (short on space) and I was asked to sit in a corner next to the ping pong room. I had just moved from India, and I did not think much of the location of my cube. This one Friday evening, someone stopped by and apologized profusely for the noise. I responded with, no problem I love the sound of the ping pong ball. He replied, maybe you should join us. So, I barge in, played my best and won most games. I later found out the person apologizing was our founder/CEO, a person with 100+ mil. I just beat him and had included some smack talk. For a person who had just moved from India (in the 90s), this was a very uncomfortable feeling. In the few years I worked there, there were couple more Fridays when he stopped by and asked me if I was free to play. (a contractor/consultant on H1B). I have always loved this about the California work culture. Very casual, but professional

[venuvedam]

Originally Posted by drmohitg

A doctor's perspective
3. Nature and quality of life: Good clean air, clean water, good roads (although some of the roads within the city aren't perfect), and overall sensible city planning. You get parks, chances for lots of outdoor activities, and an overall great social etiquette where people are willing to help you. You start admiring the smallest of things like someone opening the door for you and waiting or people not breaking the queue. You start appreciating nature, and the various seasons such as spring and autumn. Trust me it is an amazing experience.

This is exactly the reason for my move as well from Hyderabad to a sleepy little village outside Maidenhead UK. The woods are barely a five-minute walk from home. We were living in a self-contained gated community in Hyderabad and still suffered from a lot of dust related health issues. My toddler had to use a nebulizer frequently. Now he is absolutely fine, and we haven't had to use the nebulizer ever since our move.

Clean air and water, and a general populace that abides by the rules of the society are what sets the US or UK (and most of the "developed" nations) apart from India.

Having said that, I agree on all the cons you have listed too. If I have to zero in on one - It is being away from the extended family and missing many family get-togethers.

At the end of the day, India is India. We grew up here. No other country can replace the special place India has in our hearts. To each their own!

[GreasyCarb55]

Originally Posted by narayans80

In UK and mainland Europe, aren't cars expensive? Those in big cities preferred not to own one, due to expensive nature of ownership. In smaller towns, there is no other option but to own a car.

More expensive than the US, but much cheaper compared to India.

Let's take a brand new Audi S5 Sportback as an example and take a look at the base prices (on road without additional options) in the US, India, UK and a well developed European nation (let's take Germany as many Indians choose to move there).


2022 Audi S5 Sportback (3.0 TFSI)

India - Rs 99,55,910 (On road Mumbai)
USA - $55,300 or Rs 42,55,600
UK - £55,675 or Rs 52,88,720
Germany - €55,670 or Rs 45,15,400

I will mention that the price can go up further because these are just base models with zero additional options added.

[dailydriver]

The views expressed in the last few pages have been quite interesting and contrasting too.

Here’s a piece of news that might add an additional angle to the discussion.



Summary:

1. Between 2016 and 2021, nearly 7,50,000 Indians have given up their Indian citizenship and settled abroad on a permanent basis. The US, Canada, Australia and England are four prime countries of choice (in decreasing order).
2. During the same period close to 6,000 people have chosen to become Indian citizens.

Source: Vishwavani, Dt: 08/05/2022

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by dailydriver

Here’s a piece of news that might add an additional angle to the discussion.
Summary:

1. Between 2016 and 2021, nearly 7,50,000 Indians have given up their Indian citizenship and settled abroad on a permanent basis. The US, Canada, Australia and England are four prime countries of choice (in decreasing order).
2. During the same period close to 6,000 people have chosen to become Indian citizens.

Thank you for sharing. Very interesting factoid.

Let me throw a provocative but logical statement into the fray ---

Should third world countries like India, Brazil etc be levying an emigration fees on the Govt's of USA, Canada, Australia for the well trained, motivated, hard working human resources our economies are permanently exporting to these first world nations. For ample clarification I'm not saying the individual emigrant should be charged but the recipient country should. If not, why not.

This is not as whacky as it sounds. This point has been discussed in the WTO rounds.

Moot question how is this different from intellectual property for which we pay a fee. We use IP created by someone else and pay a fee for it because it is useful to us. Same way!

It is a different issue as to why good people emigrate. That's not what I'm talking about. This is a modern form of resource drain. In colonial times they simply grabbed the gold and took it. Now they take assets that are way way way more valuable. It is a whole different issue that the conditions in third world countries encourage some to emigrate. But a lot of those conditions directly and indirectly are the long term consequences of colonial economic and social exploitation that will take another one to four generations to remedy.

[nitkel]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Thank you for sharing. Very interesting factoid.
Let me throw a provocative but logical statement into the fray ---
But a lot of those conditions directly and indirectly are the long term consequences of colonial economic and social exploitation that will take another one to four generations to remedy.

Interesting. So does a country "own" it's citizens? If yes, then on what basis? If not, then this point is rather moot.

[sunilch]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Should third world countries like India, Brazil etc be levying an emigration fees on the Govt's of USA, Canada, Australia for the well trained, motivated, hard working human resources our economies are permanently exporting to these first world nations. For ample clarification I'm not saying the individual emigrant should be charged but the recipient country should. If not, why not.

This is not as whacky as it sounds. This point has been discussed in the WTO rounds.

Yes they should get some sort of compensation for sure. After all, we are producing Human Resources which are highly sought after in modern world and this, at high level, is akin to labour force supply. At the end of it, we are labour force which is what all countries need to progress, keep running and grow.

So in practicality, a lot of Western world which is low on labour force by count, sucks the same from developing world without a fair compensation to those economies.

Note: This is a very broad topic which itself can eat multiple pages here and bit OT for this thread. So if needed, we can shift this discussion to another thread or under economics section.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by nitkel

Interesting. So does a country "own" it's citizens? If yes, then on what basis? If not, then this point is rather moot.

It is a very valid point you've made. This too has been part of WTO debates. But there is no doubt that brain drain is a conscious well organized policy pursued by some countries of the Anglo Saxon First World knowing fully well they are strengthening themselves at the expense of the third world. There are many issues of human freedom involved here and there are no easy answers at all. There is no right or wrong here. Only questions that will over time become more critical.

This debate only covers those who emigrate for life. Those going to say UAE to earn an extra $ for a few years were not a part of this discussion.

[nitkel]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

It is a very valid point you've made. This too has been part of WTO debates. But there is no doubt that brain drain is a conscious well organized policy pursued by some countries of the Anglo Saxon First World knowing fully well they are strengthening themselves at the expense of the third world. There are many issues of human freedom involved here and there are no easy answers at all. There is no right or wrong here. Only questions that will over time become more critical. This debate only covers those who emigrate for life. Those going to say UAE to earn an extra $ for a few years were not a part of this discussion.

But don't these long term immigrants (ex: OCI and descendants) pump a lot of money back into the origin nations' economy? I believe many of them do.

It's not like a nation like India or even the USA can guarantee anybody any incentives to stay or return.

Also, do you think if none of the talented Indians had emigrated to other countries, India would be better off economically today? This brain-drain issue is overblown.

[drmohitg]

Originally Posted by GreasyCarb55

More expensive than the US, but much cheaper compared to India.

Let's take a brand new Audi S5 Sportback as an example and take a look at the base prices (on road without additional options) in the US, India, UK and a well developed European nation (let's take Germany as many Indians choose to move there).

The prices get even more lucrative when you look at the used car market here. The used car market for luxury cars in India is a tricky place to be in as these cars do not age very well given our road conditions. But the same does not apply here and even a 5-year-old luxury car with 50-60k miles on it still feels and runs like new.

To make matters more interesting, the finance options and interest rates here are quite decent too.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by nitkel

But don't these long term immigrants (ex: OCI and descendants) pump a lot of money back into the origin nations' economy? I believe many of them do.

Yes they do. I don't think that is in question anywhere in the points I've raised. The chart below from a Pew Research report for 2017 shows India in that year got $63.2 billion through inward remittances of NRIs and OCIs. A little over half of that came from the Middle East where Indians usually go for a few to several years with often the objective of coming back either by choice or laws of those countries. These are their own savings they are sending back. My original post #1809 is talking about the concept that the Govts of USA, Canada etc compensating the mother country of the emigrant. You are mixing things up.

Also, do you think if none of the talented Indians had emigrated to other countries, India would be better off economically today?

We don't know. Very hard to say. But if lakhs upon lakhs of your best educated leave {whether through motivation of push or pull} it is a fair assumption that the drain will have some impact on the economy & society.

This brain-drain issue is overblown.

If attracting talent from the third world is of such little use why do Australia, Canada, UK, USA have immigrant friendly policies. Why does USA have such wonderful study programmes to attract the best to come and then stay on. Why does Singapore, each year, offer full paid scholarships to 12th standard toppers across Asia including India and then give them work permits etc. Fact is the West or at least the Anglo Saxon West understand the need to stay competitive and well resourced with high end talent and pursue it with conscious well thought through policies. Except that the donor country-economy is never compensated. We can agree to disagree and move on.