[searacer932]

What I have seen is that people for their personal reasons to immigrate abroad (for their own personal reasons!) start blaming their native country, government, people, dogs & cats and try to justify their reason to immigrate abroad.

If people want to immigrate abroad, and that's perfectly acceptable & reasonable, can surely immigrate abroad without trying to invent a series of reasons trying to justify their cause

I am sure nobody is going to blame them or try to hold them back if they want to immigrate

[charanreddy]

At the outset, let me say I hold you in high regard through the balanced perspectives you offer on various topics.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Please could you spell out the injustices meted out to you. Be specific please so folks like me may learn. You seem to have a successful career, a reasonable standard of living and your employer is sending you abroad as a recognition of your services & competence. I am really curious to know which direct injustice you have suffered at the hands of a politician, bureaucrat or police officer.

Thanks to god and a lot of of folks around me, I am doing OK. I will go ahead and say my education was mostly in Govt Institutions. In my post graduation I was paid a stipend to study. However I would also like to put on record that I have paid my dues many times over inform of taxes.

Due to politicians I have not been directly impacted but my close friends and family have been. My wife is from Kadapa (AP). Just visit there to see how much of the city is in occupation of a few politicians. Just a few days back we heard of a contractor committing suicide in Karnataka due to politicians. While I was searching for a house in Bangalore I came across a certain politician who holds close to 10 thousand acres of land in Electronic City surrounding areas. You buy the land cheap but the land is not registered in a sub registrar office, you just get a slip from the politician's cronies and his assurance that they will take care of issues. I know a couple of cases (in extended family) where murder accused have been let go off due to political connections. It may not have happened to me personally, but I know the system is sufficiently compromised, it will not be a surprise if it happens.

In your journey so far, being far more experienced and having seen a lot of the world, have you not come across any such instance. If so you are truly blessed.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

I have criticized the bureaucracy on this forum many a time but always on specific matters. This country, the most complex and diverse in the world, functions because of the bureaucracy. Bumbling, trundling and fumbling but it is the glue at least where the Government goes.
All 20.5 lakh police personnel in India? Here I'm not counting central para-military units like the CISF, BSF etc. All 20.5 lakhs, each and every one of those wretched fellows? Really!

Unfortunately, I have seen my fair share of interactions with police. In none of those interactions was law adhered to due to principle. In most cases it was money, in some cases it was influence. I have seen circle inspectors commit crimes and immoral acts with impunity, favor their friends and unfortunately I have paid money to get my work done.

An average man may be able to get FIR registered incase of petty instances, but the moment you are forced to go against a powerful person or a known person to the police official, all bets are off. I have personally had false cases filed against me in domestic matters due to police colluding with opposite party. I have hence come to the conclusion that police stations exist to earn bribes under the garb of upholding justice. Its state sanctioned mafia.

There may be good officers. Generally speaking, I have not come across them. If you have interacted with upright and just officers in most of your experience, then again you are blessed.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Yes large parts of the lower judiciary is clogged up or dishonest but to say that the entire judiciary from the CJI downwards is quote, 'patently unjust', unquote might be an unjust statement by itself.

How many times do you deal with the SC or HC ? Its mostly magistrate courts or sessions courts. I am not just talking about the delays. Unfortunately, I had the misfortune of getting involved in court cases (Now acquitted), but I have personally seen and felt the concept of Justice getting murdered in broad daylight.

I have personally seen poor people beaten black and blue outside of the courts to confess to a crime before the judge. There are many poor people languishing in the jails just because they cant afford a lawyer. I have seen public prosecutors taking huge sums of money to weaken cases or not file strong objections.

I have filed RTIs and met with failure each time.

Just because we have a good SC Judge or a good HC judge are all these forgotten and forgiven.

My point is : We need to be watchful and alert. We cant depend on the inherent 'goodness' or 'fairness' in the system. There isn't any !

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Would you make such all sweeping all damning statements for say all of North & South America put together? Yes or No. India has a larger population and more languages and communities than those two continents put together. It is fashionable amongst upper class Indians to deride everything about the country without stopping to think of what they are saying. My observation is that the less an Indian actually deals with a bureaucrat, police officer or judge or politician they more all sweeping their criticism becomes - just my observation.

I would not make the sweeping statements as I have not experienced North America and South America. I may be upper class now, but growing up I was not. I am pained by your presumption " fashionable amongst upper class Indians to deride everything about the country without stopping to think of what they are saying".

I have dealt with politicians and bureaucrats and police.

I was forced to pay a lot of money in bribes during my property registration (Two times over a 6 year window). I have seen agents sit at the workstations of govt. employees, while govt. employees while their time away.

My father had expired in 2018 and to get the agricultural land mutated in our name I have submitted 4 detailed applications till date with all documents. Twice I was misled by the MRO with fabricated reasons. The third time, I was asked to wait as elections were around the corner. The fourth time, I tapped into my extended relatives contacts, got hold of a politician, got him to call Deputy Collector, met the Deputy Collector and she called the MRO to start the process. Two years and many visits later the office has done a piss poor job and the problem still exists. This is all for a simple matter of mutation to legal heirs when all documents exist.


The reason I am sharing all this is lets acknowledge the ground level problems in our country and not trivialize it in the name of a large population or what ever reasons.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by charanreddy

At the outset, let me say I hold you in high regard through the balanced perspectives you offer on various topics.

Due to politicians I have not been directly impacted but my close friends and family have been.....

I'm sorry to hear of the difficulties you have faced in your land deeds, police dealings etc. My experiences by and large have been different. I believe in a when in Rome do as the Romans do. When in India use middle men, get your work done and move on. I at least am not here to reform a system. When in France always have a French white skin lawyer with you in all business matters - that is the way they work. When in USA be conscious the other guy might be carrying a gun in his coat inner pocket. I hope your problems get sorted and you have a great tenure in Germany.

On a lighter note. A few decades ago I bought a residential plot of land in Gurgaon. As with all my real estate I went all white. In those days 50:50 was the practice. So on paper my deed was at 2X the rate of the nominal market. At registration time I was actually summoned up by the sub-registrar who was the nephew of the then ruling family in the State. He was a rent collector who had to report each day to headquarters. The man was enraged that I had spoilt the rate in the market. I can't quote his choice Haryanvi words here! When he calmed down he explained that for months the rate scribbled in his rent collection diary was rate X and now suddenly there is a rate 2X transaction and his "political boss" is going to accuse him of short changing the rent collection all these months.

[Gansan]

In my opinion one can emigrate to a place that offers a better quality of life. This doesn't mean creature comforts alone. Where one doesn't have to worry about the day to day issues of living (water/power/roads/healthcare), has equal access to various oppurtunities, where corruption and graft exist but at an invisible level and won't trouble the ordinary citizen in his day to day life. I don't see India reaching that level in my lifetime. But one should go only if one has a solid oppurtunity and not take a chance, especially if one already has a good position here and a family. And I am not so sure the US is such a place anymore. I have told as much to my son who is just passing out of college and entering his first job.

As someone else mentioned, spending some years in the US, saving money and then returning to India may not work out to everyone, especially if there are small children now, who will be teenagers when one proposes to return. They will oppose it tooth and nail. I have seen it happen in my cousin's family which lives in Texas. She is in the IT field and went more than a decade ago. Her husband and kids followed a year later. Husband is not in the IT field and did get a job (He was working in the British High Commission here and still rues leaving that job), but not as well paying as her's. Some years later she went into bad times and things looked dicey. Hubby's job alone won't be enough. They fortunately had retained their properties in Chennai and were briefly considering a return to India.

But her twin daughters who were in kindergarten when they went to US were teenagers now and both of them absolutely refused to return. They became hysterical when the topic was touched; one of them actually told her mother "Go and work in Starbucks if you must, but we are not returning to India". Fortunately she landed another good job a short while later.

[MercFan]

Originally Posted by KL01toKA03

My wife has been selected in the H1B lottery. Now, assuming that she gets the visa, we have a major decision to make and would appreciate suggestions from people who have faced similar situations.

My wife relocated to SFO this week on an H1B, she worked in a leading tech firm in Bengaluru. She had secured H1B Visa last year and got stamped this year (due to COVID restrictions), have my H4Visa interview next month and I too work in a tech firm in Bengaluru.

Relocating to USA is always gamble, as we never know which person gets to power in that country and changes immigration rules overnight. Having said that, H4visa's (dependents) cannot work anywhere, not even part time jobs, unless we get the H4 EAD, which could take up to 1-2yrs (premium processing has recently been introduced).

Life in US as a dependent will be frustrating, in each and every aspect we will be remembered that we are D-E-P-E-N-D-E-N-T-S, expect for volunteering, H4 visa holders are not allowed to do/earn anything.

Meanwhile, a bill has been tabled in US parliament about 2 months ago which demands granting automatic work status to H4 visas just like L4visa holders (bypassing EAD process). Even if this bill gets through it wont be before 2024, H4 visa holders can take advantage of this.

Finally, would agree with few suggestions on letting your spouse travel first, let her secure a job, see how things shape up in TX and thereafter take a call on relocating entire family to USA. All the best.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Gansan

But her twin daughters who were in kindergarten when they went to US were teenagers now and both of them absolutely refused to return. They became hysterical when the topic was touched; one of them actually told her mother "Go and work in Starbucks if you must, but we are not returning to India". Fortunately she landed another good job a short while later.

I had seen this phenomena back in the 90s with many desi families, where barely teen kids totally destroyed the plans their parents had for returning to India. Therefore, I returned before my son reached school age.

[mohansrides]

Originally Posted by Aceman82

For some reason we in Team-BHP is are so negative about India ....

Thank you for this brilliant post Aceman. You analysis made my day. I have a lovely story about HNI status; quite the unlikely one on face value. I will save that for another post.

Originally Posted by Navinprakash

I live in US and own property....

Originally Posted by sierrabravo98

I generally tend to ignore such posts but the highlighted portions got my goat....

Originally Posted by warrioraks

Population explosion from where our country stands today is an unlikely event...

Originally Posted by 14000rpm

I am a permanent resident in Finland but still own the House I purchased when I lived in Rochester Hills, MI.....

I couldn't quote everyone I wanted. So, I chose the top five quote authors to thank. So thank you guys.

This thread has been a revelation of sorts. So many members have made excellent points. Some have talked about scenarios and circumstances and some others have used data quite beautifully to paint a vivid picture of the points that they are making. Me? I have never been much of a data guy. What captivates me are the stories; individual experiences that shape our reality. So, I am going to talk about just two of my experiences to draw a comparison that may help others make sense of the choices before them. Really, that's the only way I know how to communicate.

I am going to narrate two contrasting experiences. They are about two big moments of clarity that I experienced. The first experience is about that single moment of wakefulness when I came to fully comprehend my situation as an out-of-work H1B worker. The second experience is at the other end; when I was no more on H1B. So here goes :


Circa 2006 -

I was enrolled back in school for my second masters degree. Incidentally, this is what H1B guys do when they lose their job and have to maintain legal status - they run back to the university to get themselves into legal status as students. Because this move buys them time and it is at least one thing that they can control. Anyways, I was back in school and I was leaving my Department close to midnight after one more pointless assignment. Right as I was about to exit the building, I spotted a fellow student in the lobby area. Now, normally one would not offer rides to others, especially not late at night. But, there were some mitigating factors at play here -

• As documented here (Asking strangers for help - what's your experience?), I had been car-less for my first 2 years in the US and I know how much of a handicap that can be. So, once I got some wheels, I have offered more rides in the US than I can count. It was my way of giving back.
• University campuses tend to be sizeable and they are safer as outsiders hardly come into campuses.
• I had seen her around in the Department over the last year. That made me fairly sure that she wasn't trouble.

So, I walk up and offer help. She gratefully accepts. We start driving. As it turned out, her assignment had run later than she had expected and her boyfriend was waiting for AAA somewhere on I-95 after car trouble while coming to pick her up.

Her house was a good 35 minutes away. So, after the initial assessments of the circumstances, talk invariably came around to what we had in common - our field of study. She was full of enthusiasm and couldn't stop talking about the two internships that she had just finished at Big Tech and about the 3 offers she was fielding from out West. We talked about the pros and cons of each offer and I offered her my perspective after having worked for a few years. Also I had traveled to California a few times and had a lot to say to her who had never set foot outside of our state. She was all ears. I too was very engrossed in her story and her areas of concentration.

Believe it or not, as we were talking about her cornucopia of opportunities, not for a second did my mind dwell on my own lack of progress; partly because we never talked about me at all. There wasn't enough time I suppose. What's more?! Until the point when I dropped her off, I had never stopped to take stock of my own situation ever. I mean, of course I knew that I was in trouble. But, not once had I stopped to reflect. To do that would have been too scary. So, my time in the US until that evening was like being stuck in an amusement park ride. All I had been allowing myself to see was the next thing on my plate. I kept stumbling from one obstacle to the next with my problem solving hat on, and never allowing myself to take a step back to evaluate. All that was about to change in an instant.

When we finally arrived at her house, the conversation had been so interesting and she had given me so much information about her prospects that my mind was racing. I was vicariously living out her future professional journey in my head. I wasn't present in the moment at all and so was quite unprepared for what happened next.

She started getting out of my car, and just before she completely unseated herself, she swiveled around and said,

"Your time; it just isn't here yet. So, don't beat yourself up and don't lose the faith."

I was STUNNED.

I had told her nothing about myself; and yet this girl, who was barely 23, had seen right thru me. She had correctly figured out that we had met at an intersection point of our career trajectories which were headed in the opposite direction. That's when the full weight of my bad choices hit me like a ton of bricks -- Almost 35. No job. No savings. No family. And pretty much no hope.

I felt emaciated and powerless. And before I had a chance to collect myself, my eyes started welling up and it was all I could do to smile and nod, and then gas the car out of her sight before the tears came running down my face.

To this day, I can go back to re-live that moment any time I want. All I need is a moment of quiet to do so. And each time I allow myself to go back there, I feel the same wave of powerlessness in all its intensity.

Circa 2011 -

I had returned to India and my office asked me to help one of our guys close a sale. So once again I found myself in the US, sitting across from a prospective client in rural NC. I should mention here that our sales guy, Kapil, had been quite diligent. He hadn't given me even an hour's rest after I had landed, and had pulled me out of my hotel room at midnight to prep me for the meeting the next AM. We had agreed on what I would say and how I would say it. I was also informed as to how we came upon this prospect and about how the customer had been quite reluctant for the last 5 months. The good part was that the customer hadn't shut us out. So, the opportunity was legit. We just needed to get him to see the value that we could add.

Come the next morning, I was as prepared as can be. Or so I thought. Sitting across from the customer, I was primed to say exactly what was in the script.

But, as it turned out, the customer wasn't reading from the same script. After the initial pleasantries, he went on a bender as to how he didn't need us; and about how our prices were high; and about how he already had 25000 paying users, so what gives us the right to come into his office and tell him what needs to be done?

Now, maybe it was the jet lag and the tight scheduling, or maybe it was because this was my first ever sales call, or maybe, JUST MAYBE it was the fact that I wasn't on an H1B and wasn't afraid to lose legal status. Whatever it was, my readied script went right out the window; and this is exactly what I told him. Almost verbatim -

"You know you are lucky. Your previous life in this business domain gives you good credibility. You got a great backstory. That's what's making your customers stick. Cuz, it sure ain't your product that's doing it, I can tell you that. I mean if I, with my bad luck, had written this product, I couldn't have gotten anyone to give me a dime for it.

Now, I have seen some hot messes in my life. But, this? This is by far the biggest one yet. You have one friggin' product. And its falling apart. Your codebase? It's a bunch of band-aids piled so high that the core engine underneath is not even visible. Documentation? Zip. Zero. Access control? Nada. Version control? Ha Ha!! What's that?!!

No process. No discipline. No accountability. Nothing but a prayer holding up this spaghetti mess that you call a product that your customers are churning every day and breaking every hour. You have 4 developers including yourself. All of you double-up as customer support and your phones just don't stop ringing because the product just doesn't stop breaking. And you think that you don't need us??!! Wow!! I mean, WOW!!

PLEASE. Please Reggie. WAKE UP!! If anyone needs us, it is you.

Sure, it need not necessarily be us. It can be another service provider. But, I am willing to wager that most others would not take a job this small, or even dare to come near this mess that you call a codebase. Lucky for you, we are hungry. We need this business; almost as much as you need us and maybe more, if you can believe that. If anyone can do the grunt work needed to clean up this mess and help you scale; and then stay loyal to you, it is us - another small company like yours that needs the revenues just as badly as you do. Now you can keep second-guessing yourself about our value; or you can allow us to work to unshackle you, and to help you grow. It's up to you chief."

All that came out in one go. Like projectile vomit.

I took a deep breath and looked at my sales guy who had literally turned white. He nodded to me to leave the room. I exited and waited out in the small water cooler area that doubled as a reception.

I was worried of course. But, I wasn't afraid. Not one bit. No sir. Not today. On the contrary, I felt great. Just freakin' GREAT. Whatever happens, I had gotten to speak. Even if it was just this once, I had gotten to say exactly what I thought. They can fire me if they want. But, they can't touch me beyond that. I can stay in Mumbai and in India until the world freakin' ended if need be. So bring it on!!!

I was almost frothing at the mouth when Kapil walked out. Still, I calmed my rushing adrenaline and took a conciliatory tone. I started to mouth an apology of sorts when he stopped me with an,

"Idhar nahin. Gaadi mein." (Not here. In the car.)

So we walked to the car and got in. I again started to speak. In an exasperated tone, he went,

"Ruk. Thoda ruk tu." (Wait. Wait a bit.)

Without another word, he drove us out of the customer's parking lot. At the first exit on the interstate, he pulled into a gas station, slotted the car into Park and turned to me. Smiling broadly, he went,

"We got it."

I was stunned. I was expecting chappals and brickbats. If not that, at least a huge dressing down from Kapil. Certainly, I wasn't expecting this.

We got it? You mean... just like that? It was UNBELIEVABLE!!! We both started laughing like lunatics. Between his heaves of laughter, he went -

"Kidar se tapka re tu? Mein idhar paanch mahine se ragad rahale isse. Tu idhar aaya aur usko aukaat dikhaaya aur woh mundi hila raha hai... kuch samajh hi nahin aa rahale mereko.... Maa kasam, aisa customer meeting tho life mein nahin dekha maine...." (Where did you come from? Here I am handling this from 5 months. You came and put him in his place and he is nodding his head. I can't understand anything. I have not seen a customer meeting like this in my life.)

Out went an email to HQ right from that gas station parking lot,

"..this dude came and carpet bombed the whole freakin' place and got us this contract. Send him every quarter please..."

That was the start. The refrain "Mohan ko bhejega..." (Will send Mohan) became mainstream in the office. In one stroke, I had become a powerful weapon. A blunt instrument that my company repeatedly unleashed on unsuspecting customers when they had us cornered; or when they exhibited too much entitlement for the money they paid us.

It wasn't just customers, by the way. I was, just as often, pointed at delivery teams and fired like a canon. Once in 2012, with me standing far back in the room and out of sight, a senior project manager went -

"Abhi yeh issue solve nahin hua tho DK (my boss) Mohan ko bhejega. Mohan apneko bajayega. Aur customer ko bhi baja daalega. Phir customer ulta apneko bajayega. This will be a mess. So, jo hona hai aaj hona hai. I want this issue closed and customer sign-off by the end of this week. I don't want to hear from the customer, or DK, or Mohan. Please." (If this issue isn't solved, DK will send Mohan. Mohan will give it to you. He will also give it to the customer. Then the customer will give it to you. This will be a mess. So whatever is to be done, should be done today.)

That was my second moment of clarity. The emaciated and powerless person from 2006? He was GONE. Disappeared. The employee that employers deemed unworthy in the US? He too was nowhere in sight. In his place was this ruthlessly effective worker that every boss wanted.

Until then, my candor had always been my Achilles' heel. It was one of the reasons that had contributed to my job losses in the US. I just couldn't get myself to speak half truths or untruths to save myself. But now? Now, that exact same candor was being lauded as my biggest strength. I was asked to bring the full force of my honesty to every situation to allow my organization and my customers to benefit.

The height of it came another two years later for the same customer in NC. We had cleaned up his portfolio by giving him a spanking new product that was being supported well by an offshore team. His user base had steadily grown by a good 40%; his revenues had shot up almost 36%. His own full-time staff engineers were now free to chart a course for their subsequent products instead of being bogged down by the baggage of their unwieldy old product.

So, when the client asked me to travel to the US again, I fully expected to discuss the next products to work on. Instead he flew me out to meet some new companies. These were orgs that my customer wanted to sign on as his customers for the product that we had just written. I asked him what he wanted me to say. He said,

"Well you guys wrote the product. So, I figured that its best if you talk about it yourself."

Still, I asked if he wanted me to stay on a specific line of discussion. He said,

"No. Just tell them what you see and how you feel. Go in there and bust some balls. You don't need no help with that."

So I did. And my customer signed 3 new customers that evening.

To this day that is the single biggest high of my career. I was not even his employee. I was just his service provider. And here I was getting more business not just for my org, but for my customer himself.

That my friends is the power of feeling free.

Cheers

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by Gansan

As someone else mentioned, spending some years in the US, saving money and then returning to India may not work out to everyone, especially if there are small children now, who will be teenagers when one proposes to return. They will oppose it tooth and nail.

But her twin daughters who were in kindergarten when they went to US were teenagers now and both of them absolutely refused to return. They became hysterical when the topic was touched; one of them actually told her mother "Go and work in Starbucks if you must, but we are not returning to India". Fortunately she landed another good job a short while later.

Originally Posted by Samurai

I had seen this phenomena back in the 90s with many desi families, where barely teen kids totally destroyed the plans their parents had for returning to India. Therefore, I returned before my son reached school age.

These two posts brought back memories and are absolutely true. My sister and I along with our family moved to India from the US as a teenager in the mid 1990s. We had had brought up in the US since the late 1980s.

I was strongly against the idea of moving back to India but my sister strangely was for it. Obviously no one listened to me and we went ahead with the move and we have remained in India since then. My parents managed to get Hindi language text books shipped to the US and used to teach us Hindi so we managed (barely) get admission in decent schools in India and pass the board exams.

In the same time period, my maternal uncle moved back to India with his family and two teenage children of the same age. However they were not able to cope with the change and had to move back within 1-2 years. This is the story I have seen most often, the teenage children are able to cope for a maximum 1-3 years then eventually move back to the US.

On a career perspective, I am of the opinion the US provides much better opportunities for an average person. I have attended the top engineering and MBA schools in India and have done decently well in my career. I have seen some of my high school friends from India move to the US immediately after 12th and do pretty well in their career. In India they could not even get admission to a 3rd rate private engineering college and were in the bottom 5% in school while in the US they managed to get into a XYZ low cost university and land a decent job after graduation. Career progression for them as been good as there is much less competition at the workplace as everyone already has a decent standard of living.

[dragonfire]

First they say, "if you don't like it here why don't you leave". When you decide to leave, the say, "you are leaving due to your personal issues, don't put it on the country". People are leaving for countries that are better than India, not to China, Saudi or Somalia. If they leave because they don't like something that we have, they have the right to say it.

I am somebody with no prospect to leave and until this day is ruing that I didn't when I had the opportunity. Do I qualify to crib? Do I have to provide justification for my opinions?

If somebody emigrating is such a sensitive issue for others, why does this thread even exist here?

[sierrabravo98]

Originally Posted by dragonfire

First they say, "if you don't like it here why don't you leave". When you decide to leave, the say, "you are leaving due to your personal issues, don't put it on the country". People are leaving for countries that are better than India, not to China, Saudi or Somalia.
I
If somebody emigrating is such a sensitive issue for others, why does this thread even exist here?

I am unable to understand the reason of this post. This forum (and this thread by extension) exists for the sole purpose of discussion. If you don't like our views, either counter them with facts or ignore them. Whatever happened to "Freedom of Expression" man?

Like multiple members have already posted above, no one is stopping anyone from leaving. In fact, this thread is a literal treasure-trove of gilt-edged advise as to what to expect when you emigrate to an unknown foreign land. I have learnt so many facts about work-permits/taxation/local taxes/expenses/savings and much more even though I have not got the slightest interest of emigrating. That alone justifies the existence of this thread to me. I am sorry it does not do it for you.

If they leave because they don't like something that we have, they have the right to say it.

I am somebody with no prospect to leave and until this day is ruing that I didn't when I had the opportunity. Do I qualify to crib? Do I have to provide justification for my opinions?

Just like those who are leaving have a "right to say it", we too have the right to counter people who give out outlandish statements and paint a false picture of this country. Freedom of speech works both ways you know.

[carthick1000]

Originally Posted by dragonfire

I am somebody with no prospect to leave and until this day is ruing that I didn't when I had the opportunity.

Where there is a will, there is a way!

Call it cliché or call it an old proverb, but suddenly came to mind while reading this post.

[shashankjain16]

I am a Computer Science Engineer from an IIT and have had my fair share of dilemmas around this question - stay in India or grab an opportunity and move abroad. Many of my colleagues have already moved out and seem to be living a happy life in the US or Europe.

But the more I have thought about it the more I have been convinced that stay back in my country. I would like to list some of the reasons why.

1. Arguably it is the best time to be living in India. A relatively stable government and civil society, aspiring youth, growing technology penetration, reducing poverty, improving infrastructure, etc. Yes, I will get all these issues already sorted if I move out. But the thing is, I want to be part of the growth of my country. I want to see my country slowly rise on the world stage. That feeling when your country vaccinates a billion people, or your space agency sends the first man to space, or you drive on a world-class road for the first time, or work in a software startup that is building the next disruptive product - that feeling brings a different sense of purpose to my life. It feels so amazing to see my country achieve so much with such limited resources and so many existing problems. 30 years from now, India will be the world's 3rd largest economy, to say the least. And I will be immensely happy that I was part of that journey in my own little way.
2. The Diversity - I love travelling. And what can be a better country to explore than India? From Rajasthan to Assam, from Kashmir to Kanyakumari - the landscapes, the people, the cultures, the food - it is impossible to explore in one lifetime. I know if I move out I will be longing to check items on my bucket list in India. Yes, US and Europe are beautiful too in their own way. But India is a heaven for explorers like me. I mean where else would I get to experience a snake boat race, drive through 5000m+ passes, visit some of the oldest architectures known to human civilizations, and taste the best food in the entire world without running around applying for visas and visiting countries across timezones?
3. Racism - In India we have casteism, in the developed world we have racism. The media may try to portray a different picture and it's a known fact that racist attacks against Asians are increasing in the US. Moreover, many times things inherent to our culture may be portrayed as dangerous or discriminating. Try to fashion a Swastika outside your home in the West and you will be labelled a Nazi. A similar thing happened during recent protests in Canada and a Hindu MP had to point out the difference between Swastika and Haken Kreuz. Even Wikipedia labels the Nazi symbol as Swastika.
4. West is not all perfect - The developed world has its own problems. The USA and Europe are riddled with decades of intertwined beurocracy. Healthcare and education can drain your lifetime's earnings. India is portrayed as rape capital but the USA is ranked top in the number of cases per capita by a large margin (even if you say there is gross underreporting of cases in India, the USA is not as far behind to say it's safe for women). There are increasing gun-related killings in USA and riots happening in Sweden. Many times India seems relatively more progressive - take abortion laws or gay rights. Moreover, the infrastructure we are building will be new and last long while that of the developed world is getting old and needs a big overhaul.

There are many other things to consider and some of you may not agree with the points I put here. However, I can say for sure that India is not such a bad place to live as some comments have pointed out in this thread. Every country has issues.

"Koi desh perfect nhi nota, use behtar banana padta hai" - Rang De Basanti

No country is perfect, we as citizens need to make it better. And I personally would be willing more to contribute to making my country better rather than taking a shortcut and moving out.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by dragonfire

I am somebody with no prospect to leave and until this day is ruing that I didn't when I had the opportunity.

Each of our lives are made up of phases - good, bad, ugly, indifferent, terrible, lucky, unlucky etc. I'm sorry to hear of your despondency but at 62 I can say with sureness that nothing, literally no phase of life lasts beyond a few years. Your prospects for a better career and income can come from within India, outside India, in your current industry, in another industry and so on. I'm sure at the right time you will, like most of us, make the right effort and break out of the gravity that's holding you back. While we wait for the big break we all can work on smaller improvements in our situation, family, health etc. Sometimes it helps to embrace the low ebb we are experiencing, it helps to make friends with our low morale - it is also a part of us and our karmic journey. Being at ease with being low is the first step to rejuvenation. My very best wishes to you & your loved ones. My tag line is a result of having faced bankruptcy twice in my business career. Never say never. You can start today and change the rest of your life. God bless you.

[ads11]

Originally Posted by Samurai

I had seen this phenomena back in the 90s with many desi families, where barely teen kids totally destroyed the plans their parents had for returning to India. Therefore, I returned before my son reached school age.

I can only offer my own experience. We moved back to India in the late 90s when I was about 6yo. At the time I thought we were visiting like we did, I didn't know that we were staying in India for good. I really struggled initially with adapting to India, the culture shock was enormous for me. At the time much of it was so alien to me, and I would be remiss if it didn't feel like a third world country at the time. Truth be told my lived in experiences till then was entirely based on life in the UK and the lack of familiar, even mundane experiences such as a McDonald's or the supermarket for example, really made it difficult to adjust. I also hated the local schools but thankfully a family friend pointed out the international school. That helped massively in adjusting to the sudden shock of moving because there I found kindred spirits. Kids who understood my references (say I was talking about Pokemon, wanting to share Gameboy cartridges or missing Kinder Surprise), kids who often were going through the same thing I was (now I should add that this is no knock against the children at the local schools I briefly visited, of course their childhood frame of reference was very different to that which I had encountered thus far). Also at the time, the school had teachers who themselves were often expats or had lived abroad so even there I guess I found sympathetic voices. Anyway, it took a number of years but eventually I came to love the city and call it home.

What I will say is this though: Had I moved back to Calcutta as a 6yo now, I don't think the culture shock would be as massive. Given how much urban India has grown to include a lot of those familiar western elements that I missed as a child, I don't think the homesickness I experienced all those years ago would be as strong. Besides, when it comes to the cultural zeitgeist insofar as a child is concerned, hypothetical 6yo me would find a lot of common ground with my peers given how much exposure children now have to a lot of the same content.

My parents though do subscribe to the fact that when moving, it does help in terms of adjustment if the children are younger. Anecdotally, we've seen a fair few cases where folks with teenage children have really pushed back on a move. I might've hated it for years at the time but I was young enough that in time I adjusted. Obviously in the fullness of time and as an adult now I appreciate much about my childhood in India just as much as my time in England. (Let's just put it this way, a lot of my childhood shenanigans just wouldn't have been possible anywhere but India!)

[srinathpadman]

Never thought my first post would be non-automotive. I had been following team-bhp since around 2012 and is my go-to place for when my family or friends ask the typical 'Which car/Which bike' and even vacation planning help (from our detailed travelogues). Love the way the content is independent and un-marketed. Somehow feel that apps like clubhouse (when it was invite only) is in-turn inspired by groups like us.

Coming to the reason I wanted to post, I was in the same dilemma for a long time until we moved to UK in March '22. My first stint abroad was in 2013 when I had only ~3 yrs of experience and from then the last time I was abroad was 2016. Returning back to India then was primarily because I couldn't find an easy way to settle, but also as we just had a kid and thought better to let our parents enjoy our presence. With age, we realize that there's more to taking such important decisions and all is for good, eventually.

Not wanting to quote so many amazing perspectives discussed in the thread, but, just like how we buy our cars, everyone has a right-fit and a reason for justifying. Some of us have found stronger reason to stay back, some have got some handy information as to what to expect when moving all from here. With regards to moving as an emigrant, below were my considerations:

For

1. Better work-life balance - Specifically, the same hours I put in (am an IT consultant btw) I get better rewarded and can still spend time with family.
2. Corruption isn't visible at ground level - On my day to day transactions I am not forced to abide or allowed to bypass . If there is a rule, it is not bend for some.
3. More assured returns for my tax - Yes, tax is high, have to wait for medical care, but i know i don't have to call up someone who knows someone to get me my entitlements.
4. Looking ahead, post covid especially, the lesser number of people for the same pool of resources gives any day a better chance of survivability. Yeah for the first time India has seen a decline in population growth, but nowhere close to other developed countries.
5. Can return back anytime - I am seeing in more recent times people making a move back, but after they get a PR so their kids can return if needed. They vouch quality of life in India is improving and investment prospects are much better.

Against

1. Family - Especially parents and siblings. No matter how much we talk the world becoming smaller, being in our home country is like no other. Especially with the given remote work scenarios, this really had us thinking for a lot!
2. Friends - We get friends along everywhere, but when you have lived for most of your life here, starting afresh is more like a school kid changing school. Just that being old makes it more difficult!
3. Not probably applicable for all, but the societal status (not money/power/etc the respect and friendly hello, how are you) is almost non-existent. Yes, most on the street asks how's your day. But that's as blank and pointless as agreeing to online terms and conditions. Its more of a siloed life abroad than a friendly society as in our country.
4. Equality and the fancy globalization set aside, 'Racism' exists. Know it better this time as I can see my kid exploring the place and experiencing it in some form. Not that all whites are bad, but the typical inner feeling of 'we are superior' is real. Getting into detail would be another thread by itself, but in our country the divides/groups are on different basis and I generally come off as 'average guy' in the status quo.

In short, we had a dilemma of should we think of our next generation or current and past ones. As of now, we have moved abroad, but not been able to decide long term plans. Leaving that for time to tell. As long as we have the confidence of yeah, we can comeback any day, just choosing this as a stage in life.