[kartoosh]

Mod note: Please avoid quoting entire large post for short replies, trimming quoted post. Thanks.

Originally Posted by sierrabravo98

I generally tend to ignore such posts but the highlighted portions got my goat.
======
BTW, No offense taken but your post belongs on this sub-reddit.

Very Optimistic, only time will tell

[sierrabravo98]

Originally Posted by dragonfire

This might be true for most Indians but everyone may not feel the same. Your viewpoints and degrees of insecurity may vary depending on which side of the divide you are on.

Several years ago, I put together an emergency kit and important documents and some gold into a fire resistant box in a place at home that is easy to grab and run, should that day arrive. Yeh, I might sound too paranoid, but that is the whole point, eh?

Now, rather than wanting the govt to make me feel safe and secure, if I am choosing to move to a safer place to live, why should anybody else complain?

I suppose you mis-understood my post. Please be a part of the 20-25 lakh Indians who migrate annually for myriad reasons. No one can/will stop you from doing that (unless you have sort of LOC issued against you for some reason). My post was a response to the member who was painting a patently wrong picture of the state of the country. I simply replied to the falsities of his/her claims with some facts.

A comprehensive response to the highlighted portion of your post would involve getting into political territory which would be a violation of forum rules. So lets agree to disagree with those.

Originally Posted by kartoosh

Mod note: Please avoid quoting entire large post for short replies, trimming quoted post. Thanks.



Very Optimistic, only time will tell

Like I said in my original post, the stop-watch supposedly started on 15th August 1947. 75 years later, we are still here.

[kartoosh]

Originally Posted by sierrabravo98

My post was a response to the member who was painting a patently wrong picture of the state of the country. I simply replied to the falsities of his/her claims with some facts.

My post was not wrong, please avoid being judgmental, I am entitled to my views same as you are. Stop judging . Someone asked for opinions and this forum is giving opinions and not judgements. Please be reasonable and understand the topic before jumping to conclusions. I can understand your over-enthusiasm but that should not undermine polity and healthy discussions

[14000rpm]

Originally Posted by Kanna_8118

So just to be perfectly clear, you pay tax on the same rental income twice once in the U.S and once in Finland? I guess the same goes incase someone is living in India.

In practice, I fall under the taxable income in US and hence don't really 'pay' any taxes. I merely file it there.

Finland has a flat 30% tax on capital gains such as rental income from within Finland or outside. The only deductions are depreciation and maintenance expenses.

This is country specific. In general, given that most countries are part of the international tax treaty, there would be such mechanisms for such Capital gains. Finland has chosen this flat 30% approach and India may have other mechanisms.

Originally Posted by Kanna_8118

My question is same as above, let us say you wish to bring back the money from selling the house back to India or any other country, do you have to pay tax twice.

And what if it the case is reversed!! selling property in India and transferring abroad, any idea what kind of hit one takes?

Yes. income from rental or sale of property would fall in Capital Gains category and will attract the same tax which is Flat 30% for me in Finland. However, my Finnish friends suggest there are way to reduce this by taking it via the 'Gift' route. Will see how it pans out. plan B - that money from the sale of the house is meant to be for daughter anyway. Will leave it in the US for her to use however she wants to use. again - Gift. Will it work the same way in India? No clue.

I'm also learning as I go.

Selling property in India and taking it abroad - Should ask Vijay Mallya. I'm sure he's figured it out. in other words - I don't know. didn't anticipate this situation and haven't explored.

[androdev]

Originally Posted by Kanna_8118

So just to be perfectly clear, you pay tax on the same rental income twice once in the U.S and once in Finland? I guess the same goes incase someone is living in India.




My question is same as above, let us say you wish to bring back the money from selling the house back to India or any other country, do you have to pay tax twice.

And what if it the case is reversed!! selling property in India and transferring abroad, any idea what kind of hit one takes?

India has double taxation avoidance treaty with many countries. Naturally such agreements are designed to avoid double taxation and not to avoid the actual tax. You are free to move your tax paid money across borders including gifting it to your family members subject to complying with Forex regulations. Bottom line is that there might be some heavy paperwork involved but you are generally free to own and transfer wealth across borders. The reason why you hear a lot of negative things about cross border wealth is because of illegal transactions.

[ranjitnair77]

Well kartoosh, you made of a set of sweeping statements. Here are some highlights.

Originally Posted by kartoosh

India will not be a place to live in after not more than a decade.

All the saved money whether you earn in crores would evaporate owing to huge inflation and sorting out daily issues.

No one even on this esteemed forum would want his child to do higher education in India or at least I don't want that for my children.

What are the fields in India wherein one could earn a decent living similar to what most people in this forum might earn today.

Do we think our children will be able to enjoy a similar lifestyle as ours with their own money once they start earning in India after 10 years?

For some there are several solid reasons for moving to developed economies: Lifestyle, career, weather, education, quality of life. Maybe several more. It makes a lot of logical sense for some to spend some years (or the rest of their lives) in a better country. For some there are logical reasons to stay back: feeling of belonging, family, ageing parents, cultural environment for children, career, contribution to society. Everyone must do as they must.

There is a well known form of cognitive bias called Rosy Retrospection where things always seemed to be better in the past and seems to be going to hell right now. It's usually the opposite if you look at the data and that applies to India too.

For India, if you look at macro data on poverty, hunger, GDP/capita, economy, entrepreneurship, taxation, globalisation, infrastructure, healthcare and education: we have made made very good progress since the country opened up in 1991. Those who have lived through the times where India was closed to the world, practising a kind of well-intentioned but ultimately misguided socialism, will appreciate the progress we have made in 30 years.

We have our challenges. Pollution, weather patterns, malnutrition, infrastructure, red-tapism, justice delivery, corruption, crony capitalism, communal tension. Maybe more. However the positives outweigh the negatives. India is objectively a better country to live in the year 2022 than it was in 1972 (Remember, the country had just come out of a decade of multiple wars and was three years away from the Emergency). Or maybe 1982 (Where we were in the throes of a horrific insurgency leading into many years of turmoil). Or 1992 (Where we had just come out of a balance of payments crisis and a severe recession ).

We have endured a difficult past, we have kept moving forward and we are a significant global economy at the moment. Many of us lead good, comfortable lives and have opportunities that never existed. Given the progress in the last 30 years, there is a high probability of things getting better a decade from now. Maybe the pace is disappointing but the elephant can't dance.

Originally Posted by kartoosh

My post was not wrong, please avoid being judgmental, I am entitled to my views same as you are. Stop judging .

You are entitled to your views. However since you did not hesitate to judge a vast, complex country so simplistically in a post, some judgement coming your way is only fair, isn't it

[kartoosh]

However since you did not hesitate to judge a vast, complex country so simplistically in a post, some judgement coming your way is only fair, isn't it

I appreciate your balanced approach to view the situations around. However I disagree that any of my statements were a judgement on anyone let alone to this vast country. My statements were either my views or they were questions that crop-up now and then in my mind. No one should be judged for posing questions, i hope you would agree. I am too living in this country and always want it to progress in the right direction

[poloman]

Originally Posted by kartoosh

...
Almost all HNIs are aware of this philosophy and make plans based on it. One can always do some research on this and verify.

Some time back there was a news of a couple from Gujarat who froze to death on US Canada border while trying to cross illegally in to US.
This news had pained me as an Indian and was deeply perturbed to understand why should one pay $225,000 to people smugglers to get in to an unknown country putting their innocent kids at risk.

This post is the clear answer to that deeply flawed world view. A person who can even manage 225000 USD in India thinks that his country is worth crap and for future of their kids they have to move to another country by hook or crook. This attitude is ingrained in to the minds of many Indians, however well to do they are in this country. They could have even settled in Canada, but chose to continue the misadventure and ended up losing the life of two innocent kids who had a bright future, had they continued in India for sure.

[Navinprakash]

Originally Posted by KL01toKA03

Thank you for all the responses. It helped a lot in making a decision. For now, my wife will go alone, I stay in India with the children. She will try to get a green card, and if that happens we will also join her. Else, she will come back. Worst case, she comes back to India with a lot of independence and will be in a better shape to handle things.

@KL01toKA03 - Congrats on your decision. Everyone here gave a very good idea of good and bad about US life. Here are my 2 cents

- Even though you decided not to go to US along with your wife, apply and get H4 for you and Kids at the time of H1B processing and get it stamped along with your wife. This way, you can travel for a vacation whenever you want. Also, when its past the visa validity date, you just need to do drop box for visa extension. This saves lots of hassles.

Also in the future, if US govt decided to give work authorization to H4 (Regular H4, not the I-140), you can apply and get the work authorization, apply and get a job in US before you can decide on where to live/settle. There are some bills in pipeline that is proposing work authorization to H4. Nothing is concrete until its signed into law.

- US is a nice country to go an vacation (whenever you can squeeze in holidays in India) and its relatively cheap to do so. Make memorable trips.

Originally Posted by mohansrides

Finally, two other points that I want to bring to your attention :[indent]a.) This line of thinking that getting international exposure is better than not getting such exposure is erroneous. The truth is that there is no telling what works and what doesn't work. I would wager that the majority of successful people in India have never had international exposure, and they are doing great.

@mohansrides - I totally agree. (I live in US with 10 yr old kid). Well written.

Originally Posted by mohansrides

Sir.. you make it sound so simple. While there are indeed people who have had enormous luck in their GC process, there are many who are languishing in no-man's land even after decades. My own BIL got his GC after 17 years. Yes, SEVENTEEN. In that time, he couldn't change his employer despite having many chances to do so. He was stuck with a crap paycheck of USD 60k in southern CA where 60k is literally poverty line.

Its not just the time taken to get GC. People in H1B waiting for GC are the most stressed bunch. Below are the most problem areas
- The stress associated with uncertainty of H1B and a constant risk of getting the H1B rejected
- Can't easily switch jobs because of GC Processing and stuck in jobs that pays less than what others with GC/US Citizenship make
- No certain date to get GC. The date can move forward/backward or stay stale anytime
- Kids will be aged out of H4 at the age of 21. Then they have to have own visa if parent didn't GC. If visa rejected, they have to go to India.
- Anxiety associated with uncertain future for kids. (The feeling of "Should I subject my kid to same path I was travelling?")
- Raising costs of US college education
- Not able to travel to India because of H1B stamping issue (I know people who never travelled to India in for 7+ years)
- Not attending a single wedding/condolences in person
And the list goes on..

[ameet_pv]

Decide on what exactly you are planning to do.
Are you planning to emigrate to leave India and settle abroad or just live in the US get a different work experience and explore US.
If you plan to emigrate note that green card is a complex immigration maze, If you qualify for EB1 you are good, else be prepared to wait for a decade at least renewing your visa and getting it stamped when you visit India. Right now one has to plan his travel to India based in the consulate appointment date he/she gets which is again a lottery and it takes 2 months of trying your luck to get one or one has to plan 6 months ahead. Be prepared for Visa rejection, delay in visa issuance, Visa extensions etc.
If you wait for a decade you have opted for a life of uncertainty wasting the prime of your life creating hurdles for your self an kids.

If you really want to emigrate consider Canada you will gain stability and can plan your life better. In 5 years you can be a Canadian citizen.

[panamera13]

Originally Posted by KL01toKA03

My wife has been selected in the H1B lottery. Now, assuming that she gets the visa

Here are the options available:

Option 1: We get the visa processed for the entire family through her employer. Only my wife travels initially. My kids and I join later, and I search for a job after going there.

She gets an H1-B visa and you will get an H4 (dependent visa). You can NOT work in US on H4 visa. You need an H1-B of your own by your own sponsor.

So if you come to US, you will come on H4 and most companies won't even interview you as soon as they hear H4. So, please plan accordingly.

[charanreddy]

This topic hits close to home as I am slated to relocate to Germany for a new role( Intra company transfer).

The only reason I am going is for my career advancement. The money differential is not much as Germany has insane taxes and cost of living is high (not as high as the UK, but still high). I too agree with one more member : I’d rather pay for my medical needs rather than stand in a queue for free Medicare. I realise I am giving up a lot (family, friends, support (house help / relatives), influence etc) and this makes me worried.

The one thing I absolutely detest about my country is the leadership and government mechanism. Please note I am not being political. Regardless of who is in power, we have come to terms with the injustices meted out during our daily lives. Be it a politician who takes it as his birth right to screw people over and is involved in large scale scams or the bureaucracy who are absolutely not accountable and behave as if they are kings of the world. To a police force which is synonymous to an organised crime unit but with uniforms or the judiciary which is patently unjust and is available only for the influential and rich. Our daily lives are complicated and we have devised very tiring and dubious mechanisms to cope with this, be it a distant relative who is in politics / police etc. or a bribe of any where between Rs 2K and 50K for small things (property registration, revenue office work etc).

Not saying these don’t exist in NA or Europe, but situation is significantly better vs India.

It’s the huge army of hard working average Indians, who is trying to provide a better life for his family, works 60 hours a week, sacrifices his health and needs who is feeding this giant hungry monster in pursuit of small gains life has to offer. This makes me extremely sad and angry.

Sorry for the rant !

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by charanreddy

Regardless of who is in power , we have come to terms with the injustices meted out during our daily lives. Be it a politician who takes it as his birth right to screw people over

Please could you spell out the injustices meted out to you. Be specific please so folks like me may learn. You seem to have a successful career, a reasonable standard of living and your employer is sending you abroad as a recognition of your services & competence. I am really curious to know which direct injustice you have suffered at the hands of a politician, bureaucrat or police officer.

or the bureaucracy who are absolutely not accountable and behave as if they are kings of the world.

I have criticized the bureaucracy on this forum many a time but always on specific matters. This country, the most complex and diverse in the world, functions because of the bureaucracy. Bumbling, trundling and fumbling but it is the glue at least where the Government goes.

To a police force which is synonymous to an organized crime

All 20.5 lakh police personnel in India? Here I'm not counting central para-military units like the CISF, BSF etc. All 20.5 lakhs, each and every one of those wretched fellows? Really!

the judiciary which is patently unjust and is available only for the influential and rich.

Yes large parts of the lower judiciary is clogged up or dishonest but to say that the entire judiciary from the CJI downwards is quote, 'patently unjust', unquote might be an unjust statement by itself.

Would you make such all sweeping all damning statements for say all of North & South America put together? Yes or No. India has a larger population and more languages and communities than those two continents put together. It is fashionable amongst upper class Indians to deride everything about the country without stopping to think of what they are saying. My observation is that the less an Indian actually deals with a bureaucrat, police officer or judge or politician they more all sweeping their criticism becomes - just my observation.

Not saying these don’t exist in NA or Europe, but situation is significantly better vs India.

Yes day to day living is easier in these geographies. Material comforts in parts could be better depending what your wage is. Civic sense is way way better. Professionally you will learn a lot - I certainly did in my time - you should go work in Germany. Lufthansa was my client for years and I loved working with them.

[jithin23]

I'm in a similar dilemma whether to emigrate or stay in India itself. I did clear the IELTS and got the magic number for Canadian PR. I applied in the pool and yet my profile isn't shortlisted. I have just started with thr career ladder and I don't mind restarting all over again as I'm in my mid 20's.

Can anyone shed some light on emigrating to Canada or Europe and what would be the pros and cons. This would help me make a clear decision whether to keep trying to apply abroad or to live in India itself. Thanks!

[ranjitnair77]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Would you make such all sweeping all damning statements for say all of North & South America put together? Yes or No. India has a larger population and more languages and communities than those two continents put together. It is fashionable amongst upper class Indians to deride everything about the country without stopping to think of what they are saying. My observation is that the less an Indian actually deals with a bureaucrat, police officer or judge or politician they more all sweeping their criticism becomes - just my observation.

I love how so many of your posts bring a sense of balance and perspective on so many threads. Thank you.

I was thinking about this too. So many of are wallowing in negativity when the data objectively tells us that our lives are better and our country is getting better. I happened to read a magnificent book called 'Thinking Fast and Slow' by the Nobel Laureate Daniel Kahneman last month and I had a lightbulb moment when he started going into the details of Loss Aversion. Here are a couple of excerpts from Chapter 28: Bad Events

The brains of humans and other animals contain a mechanism that is designed to give priority to bad news. By shaving a few hundredths of a second from the time needed to detect a predator, this circuit improves the animal’s odds of living long enough to reproduce. The automatic operations of System 1 reflect this evolutionary history. No comparably rapid mechanism for recognizing good news has been detected. Of course, we and our animal cousins are quickly alerted to signs of opportunities to mate or to feed, and advertisers design billboards accordingly. Still, threats are privileged above opportunities, as they should be. The brain responds quickly even to purely symbolic threats. Emotionally loaded words quickly attract attention, and bad words (war, crime) attract attention faster than do happy words (peace, love). There is no real threat, but the mere reminder of a bad event is treated in System 1 as threatening.

The psychologist Paul Rozin, an expert on disgust, observed that a single cockroach will completely wreck the appeal of a bowl of cherries, but a cherry will do nothing at all for a bowl of cockroaches. As he points out, the negative trumps the positive in many ways, and loss aversion is one of many manifestations of a broad negativity dominance.


Kahneman puts the weight of bad news as almost twice that of good news and backs it up with evidence. Since we are wired to respond to bad news better, everything around us: social media, Whatsapp, TV Channels, Newspapers are relentlessly feeding us threatening news, leading to negativity dominance. It is cynically profitable for them to keep feeding the beast. It is vitally important for us to understand and respond to this.

The sweeping and damning statements coming out of many of us are a consequence of this. It's natural to be generic (because the data does not back it up so the negative mind rejects the data) and negative because you are fighting the natural state of your own mind.

Anyway, this is completely OT so I'll quit rambling