[aadya]

For starters I hate this country for so many reasons. But above upper middle class there is enough comfort and fun in this country, to an extent, with all the other social problems. Most of the western countries had similar problems too but the citizens and rulers gave significant effort in building them to what it is.

With the below picture as a metaphor. I hate to be in the frying sun. I would like to go to the shade but I am trying to plant few trees and water them and try to live in that shade. There might be other people who might want to go to the shade built by others. But my requests to them is not to blame the earth for the lack of shade. It is our collective failure to build it. Enjoy your shade but atleast try planting few trees(literally) for the land you have left.

[mayukh42]

Originally Posted by kiku007

M800 and Mercedes comparison. Refer to any liveability, air quality, GDP index and it will be obvious

If the M800 served the purpose, it is as good as a Merc. It depends on the priorities, hence it is subjective as others have pointed out. The M800 has transported more people in its lifespan than the Merc, so it is safe to assume it has fulfilled requirements of more people. Making a design as per the requirements, then outliving it, is an engineer's dream.

Ours is a problem of scale, because of the population (and population density, which is 30 times the US - 1/7th its size and 4 times the population). Air Quality, GDP per capita, purchasing power, etc. are related to this and the fact that US outsources its manufacturing (and as a corollary, population, pollution, and poverty - which are interlinked at some point) to Asia. They cannot even "wipe" without a boat arriving from China. They are buyers, so they'll not have grease in hands and will always look clean.

Originally Posted by charanreddy

I will go ahead and say my education was mostly in Govt Institutions. In my post graduation I was paid a stipend to study. However I would also like to put on record that I have paid my dues many times over inform of taxes.

I have studied in state and central government colleges, availed government subsidised education and stipend, then over the years have paid back that amount manifold through taxes. Lets say the break-even amount is 5x after 20 years (500/20 = 25% annual RoI, pretty good). My question is this - if I had this amount 20 years ago, would I have got admission to those colleges just with that money (and no JEE rank)? If the answer is no, then the debt is not repaid. Some things cannot be repaid with money. I am a vehicle of investment by the country and am ok to continue to yield returns. (Note that it is my country making the investment, not any particular government or political party.)

Do I get enough from the administration in return? Of course not. My expectations are not met when even 22 years into the new millennium, we have to face power cuts in a metro city like Bengaluru; when we have to pay road tax to drive on work-in-progress roads, destroy trees and lakes for redundant constructions that further lead to traffic jams, take 1 hour to travel 6 kms, noise pollution, toll tax on highways with potholes not fixed enough, police not enforcing traffic violations or encroachments enough (that further causes jams and accidents), "bigger vehicle always at fault" mindset, unnecessarily high taxes on fuel, and on the purchasing power front - bear Rs. 100+ as conversion factor for electronics instead of around Rs. 88 (including GST), when those items are manufactured in a country I could just walk to across the border - just to name a few.

However, if I had moved to US, it wouldn't have been because of these reasons. Rather, for the ecosystem of Silicon Valley - to work among another set of like-minded people, to adapt the things I like about their culture, to live and work like one of them, and of course to earn - wouldn't be honest to leave that out. The guiding principles behind moving abroad should be related to profession, with lifestyle as a by-product, and a desire to explore the country. Not a narrow, colonial mindset that only sees the negativity.

It is imperative we criticise the government and administration, and democratically exercise our decisions (because of this very democracy, problems will take longer to solve than a dictatorship). A country is far bigger than that - an idea, a culture, a history. Left, Right, and Center, we seem to forget that distinction these days.

[mohansrides]

Originally Posted by kiku007

..However, in this thread.

Why isn't the M800 enough for you? It was good for your grandfather, father and even for you till now.
Have you thought about the friendly neighborhood service centre guy's livelihood? What will he do if you move away from the M800. He can't service the Mercedes (at least as yet.)

A little oversimplified, don't you think?

If I played along and used your analogy, I'd say that people are simply trying to educate the prospective buyer about all aspects of said Mercedes ownership, including any and all hidden costs, be they monetary or otherwise.

More importantly, if this was a simple transactional thread of the procedures required to emigrate, then your point may be valid. But, if you scroll up, I think you will find that those spoke up in defense of India did so because of one or more posts (now probably deleted) provoked such a response. The initial provocative posts were hardly about procedure inquiry; more like... "this is a terrible country..." So, if they say that, then it is only natural that they get a similar response.

Originally Posted by JediKnight

I found your post very offensive at several levels..

You really shouldn't let yourself get upset by such things. Insults hurt. Because they should. Because that's the whole point of an insult. But, insults can also be terribly useful. From time to time, we need the people around us to present things in stark contrasts showing us in bad light if needed. How else would we know what to aspire for and how to get better? Personally, I use insults a lot - sometimes like a blunt instrument, and other times like a surgical tool. Most of the time, if modulated right, insults deliver results. Of course, there can be blow back and one should hedge one's actions. But, overall insults are a great communication tool, and I have come to respect those who insult me. Such folks have propelled me forward more than those who have been kind to me.

Coming back the topic of loving one's country, unfortunately or fortunately this isn't a black and white concept. For what its worth, I will say that not everyone who leaves the country hates it. The diaspora is quite diverse. In all sincerity, we owe at least some gratitude to those who have left. Our forex reserves and our economies are strong in no small part due to these people. For example, Kerala owes huge parts of its progress to Keralites who leave (specifically due to lack of opportunity) and then slog it out in hostile lands to keep their family safe, sound and healthy here in India. If our countrymen didn't make such moves, we would not be where we are. So, let us not write off everyone who leaves.

My advise on this thread against moving to the US has been centered on the very difficult immigration rules that can make life hell. I can confidently say that the rewards are not worth it. One doesn't reap 10x or 20x the benefits for having gone through immigration hell. Whats more?! Whether you see benefits or not, you definitely pay out the costs such as time away from your family and friends in India. So, personally, I see this as a move not worth making.

I returned because my H1b was on its last legs and I had never applied for a GC. My last employer in the US was actually quite accommodating. They offered to move me to Canada for an year and apply again in an year. But, just as I was pondering if I wanted to do this at all, my mother fell somewhat seriously sick in India. And the rest of my family here didn't even tell me about it for a full three weeks as they thought it was pointless to trouble me. That did it. I was home in two weeks and have never looked back. It's only after I returned that all manners of perspectives became available to me and I started to see the foolishness of even having gone to the US in the first place (or of pursuing pointless post graduate degrees). There is as much opportunity in India as there is in the US. And one doesn't need an H1B to work.

Originally Posted by Samurai

..Life is lot harder in India, compared to USA, but I find it lot more fulfilling.

After having been useless to my family for a decade, I experienced the exact opposite. On my return, I shepherded my father through a full year of treatment when he got diagnosed with Lymphoma. After he pulled thru, he begrudgingly thanked me once. I carry that compliment in my back pocket and take it out every now and then to shine it and admire it.

Almost immediately my FIL got diagnosed with Liver Cancer. He didn't make it. He was too old and his cancer was too aggressive. But, we literally threw the kitchen sink at the problem and left no stone unturned. So, we harbour no guilt as we did everything in our power.

These are priceless experiences that I could not have gotten if I had not returned.

On the opposite end of the spectrum is my close friend's wife, Anita. They live in CT and have a special needs child. Anita's dad died when she was only 2. So her mom raised her and her brother, both of whom moved to the US. When the mother got Colon Cancer, it was a nightmare for Anita and her brother to see who could come to help. They took turns, and in the end, it wasn't enough. On her day of departure to the US, Anita had no idea if she would see her mother again. Special needs child on one hand and a sick mother on the other; both separated by 8000 miles!!. What a horrible dilemma?!

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Each of our lives are made up of phases - good, bad, ugly, indifferent, terrible, lucky, unlucky etc.. Sometimes it helps to embrace the low ebb we are experiencing, it helps to make friends with our low morale - it is also a part of us and our karmic journey...Never say never..

Very well said. But, this sort of wisdom comes only with experience and age. It was only in my early forties that I came to realise the lack of permanence of all things.

Someone sent me a quote (by Daniel Pennac I think) -

"It's just when you think it's all over, that it all begins."

I haven't read truer words.

Cheers

[V.Narayan]

In all fairness to member @kiku007 I think we might be piling onto him a bit more than warranted. As I saw it all he is saying is that each of us has to determine what is our goal (Mercedes) and where are we today (M800). For some emigrating is the Mercedes and to another staying home in India is the Mercedes. Just like we who chose to stay back out of choice have a right to say it with pride he and others chose to migrate because that is what worked for their unique circumstances. We in India chaff at NRIs constantly criticizing India. So it behooves us not to make the same mistake by criticizing an NRI who exercised his choice to emigrate. Just my two paisa on the subject.

A lot of our hard positions (and I am a nationalist to my khadi button holes) come to nought when our children decide that they want to migrate. * The way the Indian diaspora is growing in numbers and economic and political clout and the way gradually India is getting closer to USA & Australia things will get more seamless. The lines between resident Indian, NRI, OCI etc will blur. It is already headed that way.

* As you can guess it is a situation I'm already facing with one of my married kids. And wifey has been promised a grandchild in two years. So I've been told to keep my 'Hindustan ki Kasam' lines in the zip bag.

[poloman]

To migrate or not is a personal choice. That choice and freedom has to be respected. Sadly some people who migrate become more white than Whites themselves. The fellow countrymen are looked down as inferior as if West is the only respected place to raise kids and maintain quality of life. They even become proponents of anti immigrant policies

What is a Maruti 800 and Mercedes is fully based on how you assess the situation. My director in India had 60 people reporting to him. He had huge visibility, huge respect and the last word in many things related to the team and even the division. For his kid's education he got himself transferred to US on L1 in the same team as an individual contributor. Now no one hears about him anymore. Career wise, how good was this move, he will be pondering for sure. The earlier salary gap which existed between US and India has closed to such an extent that in product companies, you can very easily get transfer to US. But you will become a nobody if you move there.

So let us not demean each others choices, treat other's perspective with respect.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Many of us think of our country as something intangible. Like one thinks about a parent.

I came back because I belong here most

Life is lot harder in India, compared to USA, but I find it lot more fulfilling.

These 3 lines are so very true . I did my MBA in Boston and had a few career opportunities there, but I love my India way too much. Post-graduation, I took 2 weeks off to do all the things I didn't have time for in my final semester and flew back to India. Came back because this is "home" to me, and for my family (especially my parents who were senior citizens then).

Came back out of choice. And I see the same with a lot of young people around. Many are choosing to come back after their graduation, or at the max, after getting 2 - 3 years of work experience in the USA (or elsewhere). The India today is a lot different than it was 20 years ago. Also, there are ample career opportunities to make good money, whether as a businessman or corporate professional.

But the big cities here can be brutal if you don't already own a flat, especially in Mumbai or Delhi. A full-floor here costs 10 crores...start from scratch and you'll probably be buying one very late in life (that is, if you are very successful). Tell the broker 2 crores and he'll start showing you flats way out of the main city areas. I don't think I would've returned if we didn't already own real estate, or if we lived in a 1 BHK in Mumbai.

It is far easier to start from scratch in the USA, become a home owner, get a nice car etc. My BIL and one of my closest friends are both in the USA, started from zero and they're living a life they wouldn't even dream of in India. Neither of them had any real estate to speak of in India. In 20 years of corporate life in USA, they own palatial homes, have multiple luxury cars and take some really snazzy vacations (think 3 - 4 weeks in Japan & Portugal). Literally rolling in the moolah. In fact, they bought really nice homes in <10 years of their USA career, which is tough to do here. One is an architect, the other is in IT. Both are working with corporates, as are their spouses.

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by poloman

What is a Maruti 800 and Mercedes is fully based on how you assess the situation. My director in India had 60 people reporting to him. He had huge visibility, huge respect and the last word in many things related to the team and even the division. For his kid's education he got himself transferred to US on L1 in the same team as an individual contributor. Now no one hears about him anymore. Career wise, how good was this move, he will be pondering for sure. The earlier salary gap which existed between US and India has closed to such an extent that in product companies, you can very easily get transfer to US. But you will become a nobody if you move there.

Many would consider this guy as foolish especially from a power and financial clout point-of-view, going from popular to invisible. But who knows, (by making this move for his kid’s education) he probably chose to be that happy invisible man driving a Corolla rather than being a popular grumpy man in a Mercedes – because its US, replaced 800 with a Corolla

Originally Posted by poloman

So let us not demean each others choices, treat other's perspective with respect.

Absolutely, and the choices need not be always about money. Exploring options outside (with an open mind) helps to widen your vision and the way you see the world, and also in many ways makes one appreciate or see his/her own country in a different light.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

The way the Indian diaspora is growing in numbers and economic and political clout and the way gradually India is getting closer to USA & Australia things will get more seamless. The lines between resident Indian, NRI, OCI etc will blur. It is already headed that way.

This is so true. And as an example, see how seamless international travel is now. I remember back in the 2000s, landing at Cochin airport was a nightmare, with officials eyeing for an opportunity to milk the passengers, and now it’s a breeze; NRIs are no longer cash cows / special breeds landing in from a rich/superior country. Blurred lines in this case are really good.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by GTO

It is far easier to start from scratch in the USA, become a home owner, get a nice car etc. My BIL and one of my closest friends are both in the USA, started from zero and they're living a life they wouldn't even dream of in India. Neither of them had any real estate to speak of in India.

Well, that was me at that time. My parents didn't even own a car. My father built his first home in his 50s with a ton of loans, which he cleared only upon retirement. So I stayed nearly a decade in USA, and returned only when I had owned two homes without loan in India. Once that was achieved, I had no need to leave India.

[androdev]

The ceiling for anyone is much higher in countries like US. If you consider Bangalore IT companies, most of the senior management here reports to very young employees (often Indians) from the HQ. The main thing that separates both would be the decision to immigrate. One can ague that India offers many opportunities now but the pool is really small and if you are an entrepreneur you often need capabilities of dubious nature to succeed. If prosperity is the objective, then immigrating to the west is a no brainer no matter how much anybody convinces you that India is full of opportunities.

Having said this, nobody can have it all. Just pick what matters to you the most. Immigration has the risk of reducing life to a one-dimensional pursuit of prosperity - be aware of it and enjoy your blessings.

[skyocean]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Fully agree with you.

As I type this, my mom (age 86) is reading her favorite magazine in the next room....

Reading this statement alone is so comforting. Its so fulfilling.

Time and again its proven that we miss out on the true happiness in life because of greed. Life's not about just running behind green bucks alone, the unfortunate trend in our country is where going abroad (now Tech jobs) is associated as a status symbol. Brides prefer grooms working abroad thinking of a better life and also the buzz they can make on social media after marriage.. Parents want their children abroad because they want to boast about it in a family function. Its all messed up.

There was once a time when a job in gulf country had a similar trend because of the money it fetched, but now the tides have turned with a steep decline in social respect for such expat jobs. I wont be surprised if similar thing happens in a decade or so with our Tech expat jobs as well, also Tech jobs in India are paying as high as anywhere else these days. That said, there is nothing wrong about being an expat, its a matter of choice, between opportunity and fulfillment. If one is able to find both then life will be a bliss.

India is a land of infinite opportunities. Its much easier to climb the ladder here, more than anything else our family, friends, and all the fellow compatriots who smile even without knowing us makes us feel at home. This social acceptance is something which will never happen elsewhere.

We belong here, this is our land and in here we will find both gold and happiness.

[charanreddy]

Originally Posted by mayukh42

My question is this - if I had this amount 20 years ago, would I have got admission to those colleges just with that money (and no JEE rank)? If the answer is no, then the debt is not repaid. Some things cannot be repaid with money. I am a vehicle of investment by the country and am ok to continue to yield returns. (Note that it is my country making the investment, not any particular government or political party.)

Money is not a substitute for Merit and Merit doesn't always have to be free.

My comparison is same college but not subsidized by the Govt. I paid Rs 5000 per year as Tuition fees in my B.Tech and Rs 12K per semester in my M.Tech (I got a stipend of Rs 5K per Month back, so the Govt paid me to study).

Lets assume that I needed to pay Rs 2 Lakhs per year on a average, The total outlay for Govt on me was close to 12 lakhs. Adjusted for inflation, This is roughly 30 - 35 Lakhs in todays money, which has been more than paid for.

I do understand that some things that my country provides me cannot be valued in money. For eg. Brothers who serve in the armed forces, their sacrifices small and big cannot be valued.

I like my country a lot and hence when I think of the potential Vs what is happening now, it pains me to no extent. Through some extremely unfortunate occurrences, we have placed the most scrupulous, most un educated, most corrupt people at the pedestals of power who break laws they make with impunity (Again I am not political or supporting one faction against others).

Like I said the only reason I am OK with emigrating short term is due to career.

Originally Posted by Samurai

So I stayed nearly a decade in USA, and returned only when I had owned two homes without loan in India. Once that was achieved, I had no need to leave India.

Agree with the sentiment though its fast changing. Currently if a person is qualified and if an organization deems him / her an asset, sky is the limit interms of compensation. A decade back, a Salary of Rs 1 Cr or above per annum was only limited to CXO's and executive leadership. These days a mid level manager or a strong experienced individual contributor gets this very easily.

Heck just in 2021, We had 42 new unicorns in India , much higher than the last 5 years combined (total of 34 from 2015 - 2020).

Originally Posted by skyocean

India is a land of infinite opportunities. Its much easier to climb the ladder here, more than anything else our family, friends, and all the fellow compatriots who smile even without knowing us makes us feel at home. This social acceptance is something which will never happen elsewhere.

+ 1. I am lucky to stay in a society in outskirts of Bangalore. In my same society I have my own brother and 3 cousins owning houses. + I have made a lot of close personal friends here. This is absolutely irreplaceable.

[McLaren Rulez]

It feels like the material aspects of living abroad and the comforts of home are taking way too much priority in this discussion. Yes, you'll probably live a materially better life abroad and yes, staying in India has its own comfort factor. That's only one part of the picture though...

The best reason to move abroad is for your own personal growth. Live in a new culture and experience a new kind of life - this is the part that a short visit/holiday doesn't capture. The world is a diverse and amazing place and India is only one tiny part of it. If you are lucky enough to have your stars align and give you a shot at living abroad, take the chance. Leave the nest, go chase the adventures and quench that inner wanderlust. Of course we all have practical considerations of family, friends, careers, etc. but all too often, we get so absorbed in those details that this intangible benefit gets forgotten.

Whether you return to India or choose to settle abroad indefinitely is a personal decision and you will make it after you try it. At that point, the opinions of others will just be background noise - you will know deep down inside what matters to you.

[Turbohead]

Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez

The best reason to move abroad is for your own personal growth. Live in a new culture and experience a new kind of life - this is the part that a short visit/holiday doesn't capture. The world is a diverse and amazing place and India is only one tiny part of it. If you are lucky enough to have your stars align and give you a shot at living abroad, take the chance. Leave the nest, go chase the adventures and quench that inner wanderlust. Of course we all have practical considerations of family, friends, careers, etc. but all too often, we get so absorbed in those details that this intangible benefit gets forgotten.

Whether you return to India or choose to settle abroad indefinitely is a personal decision and you will make it after you try it. At that point, the opinions of others will just be background noise - you will know deep down inside what matters to you.

Finally! Someone said it perfectly!

How the future looks is absolutely unpredictable but what is predictable is that putting oneself in an uncomfortable position is bound to result in overall development of the individual. Forget the money and the security it may offer, strengthening one's mind and attitude in a completely different environment is priceless.

[Nav-i-gator]

Well, I am the one who is in the process of moving out right now. My company has given me an overseas assignment to move to (not US/UK/Canada/Dubai/Australia) Vietnam.

Why I took it - just for the experience, the fact that my whole team sits in ASEAN countries, and my work profile is not linked to India business of my employer anymore. It makes sense to move closer to the market you are working for. Plus, These are tourist destinations! And not too far away from home if there is any urgency to come back.

Are there monetary benefits? I Guess no (But hope yes). Certainly not what one think of while moving to US or a western/developed country. So, this is definitely not a financial decision.

Is this a permanent move? No (but you never know!). Maybe I will come back to India or move to another country. Right now the intent is to eventually come back to India but I have not put a timeline to that. Will see when I reach the point where I need to take that decision.

I am not a very professionally ambitious person. For me, money is a means to live a life with as little regrets as possible. And take chances at least when the risk is low (I am not going to change the company, company will take care of me since I will be an expat there. Worst case, they will send me back or help me find another role to take somewhere else. Or I will shift and move to another company).

I will have to pack my bags here, sell out all the belongings and start afresh in some other country which is not much different than India in terms of level of development. What I am looking forward to is a new experience, new places to explore, getting exposed to new markets and ways of working. That experience is priceless, may be good or bad, but worth trying I guess.

Most importantly, unless I try it, I can't say for sure whether it is worth it or not. I am anxious, even troubled a bit, but taking the plunge to test the waters first hand.

[Red Liner]

What would be interesting will be to hear from non Indians who have chosen to settle in India and why?

Yes, we got Thad here to start with.