[Turbanator]

OT: but I feel the need to counter your views.

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

Intense NIMBYism, and like, really, really intense, like imagine current house owners of an area actively going to their municipalities and protesting new development, redevelopment, any increase in density, increase in daycare facilities for children for reasons like "the new condo tower will cast a shadow in my back yard, increase traffic or noise from traffic" or "an increase in daycare facility to handle 10 kids instead of 7 will cause traffic in my area to go up" while most live in literal mansions in the middle of the city which they bought in the 70s or 80s for relative pennies.

This happens everywhere. Look, here in Chandigarh.

https://www.99acres.com/articles/sup...igarh-nid.html


You don't need to get mad at people who invested in RE many years ago. This is the same across the world. RE will continue to grow. Newer cities/ areas will see more growth than the older parts. At one point in time, Model Town in Delhi must have been the prime location, and now everyone wants to live on Golf-Course Road in Gurgaon. So, it's natural for the prices to rise here in Gurgaon than Model Town.

- Moral hazard created by the Government of Canada and the Banks by actively promoting real estate as the only means of savings

I don't think the Government interferes or suggests. It's more due to personal experiences, seeing other properties growing multiple times. My own friends who have got properties in 2014 have seen prices growing 2-3 times. But I have seen even crazy returns here in India. Any place in Gurgaon is currently at least 2X of the 2021 prices. People make money in Bonds/ Stocks or businesses so RE is not the only option.

investment by having CMHC which insures/backstops mortgages from failing and is funded by public money, tax free First Home Savings Account (FHSA)

This is what Wiki tells me

The CMHC operates with a primary mandate of providing mortgage liquidity, assist in establishing affordable housing development, and provide arms-length advice to the Government of Canada, and housing industry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada...using%20agency.

This is another site that describes it better. What is it to do with public money? If you mean the money paid as tax to the government - then it's the Government's money and their wish what they want to do with that- right?

https://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/consumer...loan-insurance

I know people who own 50+ investment properties that they use not for long term rentals but AirBnB.

No primary bank will finance more than 4 properties at max. Even that will be with a lot of checks. If someone goes to private lenders or has his own money, it's a different matter.

- Massive amounts of fraud in the market, especially people faking income documentation to get mortgages.

Yes, again, unfortunately, practised mostly by our people. A lot of mortgages in Brampton will be like this

The previous housing minister Ahmed Hussen bought an investment property to rent out during an intense housing crisis.

What's the issue here? Anyone can invest anywhere. Why should we highlight a minister making his personal investments anywhere he deems appropriate?

Huge red tape in building permits, builders have to wait years for approval to start construction due to this and NIMBYism.

Yes, there are delays and expenses but it's a developed country. Someone has to plan and build roads, hospitals, schools, and all that stuff costs a lot. So the developer has to factor a lot of overheads.

Open market for wealthy foreigners and criminals: They come in with cash, outbid every person and often pay fully in cash.

Anything beyond 10,000 in cash is reported to the IRS. No seller is going to take any money in cash from you.

So a typical buyer is not just competing with a typical family like Sangwan's for a house purchase, they are competing with criminals and foreigners with way more money than a wage earner in Canada.

No, that's so much exaggeration. Never seen something like that in our house search in GTA for the last year or so.

The governement brought about a Foreign Buyers' ban in 2020 or 2021 with so many loopholes that it was effectively useless from day 1.

We will be taking the thread in a different direction, but we are curious to know what the loopholes are. Here is a relevant article

https://www.canadim.com/blog/can-a-t...use-in-canada/

- Realtors creating FOMO especially using the immigration numbers projected by the government to justify insane prices.

Yes, and mostly, it is us or the Chinese who have this fear of losing. And why not? We have seen rationing of everything and waitlists on most things that make us behave like that. But once you leave this, from my own experience, I have always found better things/ cheaper rates (mostly). If we had got our house in 2023 spring when that Brampton realtor was so much after us to prove this was the best time and cheapest price. At around the same price, we left a nice house in Bronte, Oakville last month as I still believe in the long term, prices are not sustainable.


Regarding the question by a fellow member, the primary reason for the housing crisis is the lack of cheaper housing. Whether it's for students or new immigrants. One cannot go to Canada and think of buying a detached house in Toronto seeing the old rates. Things are changing, and I am sure there will be some sort of limit on the new immigrants/ the number of student intake.

[LiveLife]

Originally Posted by PPS

Is this in Male city? On private islands they only used to accept USD's !

Apologies did not engage with private islands thus wouldn't know.

[Imran.Syed]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

This happens everywhere. Look, here in Chandigarh. You don't need to get mad at people who invested in RE many years ago. This is the same across the world. RE will continue to grow. Newer cities/ areas will see more growth than the older parts.

That's true, it happens everywhere. But look at how much Real Estate contributes to the GDP pie in Canada and then look at other countries. You want to see how it affects the productivity of a country, facts and data are available. In Canada, amongst the Boomer/house owner population, housing has been used as an ATM machine. Canada has reverse mortgages for asset rich cash poor house owners. India has these too, right? Correct. But Canadians use this loaned money to sustain their lifestyles and every day needs. We use it in case of emergencies mostly.


An important difference between India and Canada, I feel, is that Canada does not have major cities other than the two areas. GTA/Southern ON and GVA attract everyone because that's where majority of the jobs, colleges, universities are. If I came off as angry at these house owners or investors, I am not, they did what the government enabled them to do. Heck I am not even angry, I have decided to not buy so I am out of the game. (like you)

I don't think the Government interferes or suggests. It's more due to personal experiences, seeing other properties growing multiple times. My own friends who have got properties in 2014 have seen prices growing 2-3 times. But I have seen even crazy returns here in India. Any place in Gurgaon is currently at least 2X of the 2021 prices. People make money in Bonds/ Stocks or businesses so RE is not the only option.

The amount of money is disproportional to the hard work put in. Investing in Bonds/Stocks or businesses is tough, investing in RE is relatively unintelligent.
Indian economy is large enough to have something for everyone. Canadian economy forces you towards making a housing purchase if you are a full time employee, which most Canadians are.

This is another site that describes it better. What is it to do with public money? If you mean the money paid as tax to the government - then it's the Government's money and their wish what they want to do with that- right?

Dig in a little more please. What you have read is the mission statement of CHMC. That's like Trudeau saying the budget will balance itself. And no, I did not mean the money is paid as tax to the government.

No primary bank will finance more than 4 properties at max. Even that will be with a lot of checks. If someone goes to private lenders or has his own money, it's a different matter.

Canada does not have private money or lenders? I am confused with this counter.

Yes, again, unfortunately, practised mostly by our people. A lot of mortgages in Brampton will be like this

Not just limited to Brampton, not just limited to our people. Our people stand out because they can be loud sometimes, but believe me, although it's fashionable to hate on Brampton nowadays, worse frauds exist and all types of people do it. Much larger fishes in the sea.

What's the issue here? Anyone can invest anywhere. Why should we highlight a minister making his personal investments anywhere he deems appropriate?

Yes, when he is the housing minister, incharge of fixing the very housing crisis made worse by his Government, and then he goes out and makes housing investments to rent out, it is an issue of will and intention. He was removed from this position shortly after.

Anything beyond 10,000 in cash is reported to the IRS. No seller is going to take any money in cash from you.

Realtor I am friends with, day before yesterday, sold a house like that. By cash, I don't literally mean suitcases worth of cash given to seller. Talk to any mortgage agent and they will fix this tiny IRS/CRA issue for you.

No, that's so much exaggeration. Never seen something like that in our house search in GTA for the last year or so.

Documented cases of this happening on CBC's youtube channel.

We will be taking the thread in a different direction, but we are curious to know what the loopholes are.

Please read the announcement for yourself. Or google the question you asked me and its amendments just three months into the ban.

Yes, and mostly, it is us or the Chinese who have this fear of losing. And why not? We have seen rationing of everything and waitlists on most things that make us behave like that. But once you leave this, from my own experience, I have always found better things/ cheaper rates (mostly). If we had got our house in 2023 spring when that Brampton realtor was so much after us to prove this was the best time and cheapest price. At around the same price, we left a nice house in Bronte, Oakville last month as I still believe in the long term, prices are not sustainable.

So according to you, why are they not sustainable?
And I know enough white people to know that in Canada, its not just us getting FOMO'd.

Regarding the question by a fellow member, the primary reason for the housing crisis is the lack of cheaper housing. Whether it's for students or new immigrants. One cannot go to Canada and think of buying a detached house in Toronto seeing the old rates. Things are changing, and I am sure there will be some sort of limit on the new immigrants/ the number of student intake.

I am sure like you, OP is well aware of the problems too. However I disagree with your assessment that everyone is looking for a detached house.
In general, average house prices in developed countries should be anywhere 3-5x average income. In Canada, these are much much higher in GTA/GVA areas.

[dragracer567]

Dear all,

I have a quick question for the folks who eventually returned to India after living abroad for an extended period or perhaps even a lifetime of living abroad (like me):

1) What was the exact reason behind your decision to return to India? Missing home? Family? Patriotism? Or just plain better prospects?

2) How did you deal with the obvious reduction in your income (unless you built a successful business)? Of course, there is a difference in purchasing power but some costs like say the cost of an iPhone or a foreign holiday will remain the same or will be higher.

3) Is it easier if you are moving to a metro city in India rather than a tier-2 city?

4) Did you face issues with pollution, traffic, power cuts, roads, culture, attitude etc.?

5) Did you face issues with work culture & work-life balance (like a lot of my friends do)?

6) Any other issues you'd faced?

Just trying to weigh the pros and cons if I were to eventually return to India at some point in life.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Just trying to weigh the pros and cons if I were to eventually return to India at some point in life.

This indicates that you don't really have a strong reason to come back. Once you have a strong reason to come back, it is then you should be weighing the pros and cons.

Otherwise, it will be like a solution looking for a problem. You won't be able to judge which aspects matter most to you. It is highly likely to fail.

[NomadSK]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

I have a quick question for the folks who eventually returned to India after living abroad for an extended period or perhaps even a lifetime of living abroad (like me):

Hello, I guess I'm sailing in the same boat like you. Haven't moved to India yet, but in future I would do that, These would be my reasons;

1) What was the exact reason behind your decision to return to India? Missing home? Family? Patriotism? Or just plain better prospects?

I'm a parent of single girl kid and for higher education she will be moving to India/abroad as per her liking within few years. My parents are getting old, although super fit for thier age, touchwood, my physical presence is not yet needed by them, but eventually I will have to be there by their side. So once any one among the 2 needs me, I will hang up my boots and pack my bags for good.

2) How did you deal with the obvious reduction in your income (unless you built a successful business)? Of course, there is a difference in purchasing power but some costs like say the cost of an iPhone or a foreign holiday will remain the same or will be higher.

After working outside for considerable years. I guess I'm ok with less income, but living in India and being close to the family will be the priority.

3) Is it easier if you are moving to a metro city in India rather than a tier-2 city?

I will be definitely moving to the mountains and definitely not to any of the metros or even a Teir-2 city. I hate being in artifically regulated environments. And Hot weather/Humidity is a big no no for me.

4) Did you face issues with pollution, traffic, power cuts, roads, culture, attitude etc.?

Thats why I have got a property in a very far flung area in mountains which is having zero pollution, zero traffic, good enough roads and some good medical facilities nearby. And not to forget, fresh milk supply directly from the "Tabela"

5) Did you face issues with work culture & work-life balance (like a lot of my friends do)?

That might be an issue, but after working abroad and having a fat corpus to bank on, one can always create a work-life balance and can work at a place where he/she actually wants to work for happiness.

6) Any other issues you'd faced?

I don’t see much of an issue. However, everytime I visit India, I get nauseated to drive on Indian roads and that feeling kept on increasing during my every visit. Earlier me and my father used to crib about who will drive, now we both crib who will not drive.

And finally, I hope the transition as and when it happens, would be butter smooth and without much hiccups.

[padmrajravi]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Dear all,

I have a quick question for the folks who eventually returned to India after living abroad for an extended period or perhaps even a lifetime of living abroad (like me):

Just trying to weigh the pros and cons if I were to eventually return to India at some point in life.

1) What was the exact reason behind your decision to return to India? Missing home? Family? Patriotism? Or just plain better prospects? - Family. My father passed away and my mother would have to stay alone in our house. I had moved to Sydney and my sister was close to getting married and moving to another city.

2) How did you deal with the obvious reduction in your income (unless you built a successful business)? Of course, there is a difference in purchasing power but some costs like say the cost of an iPhone or a foreign holiday will remain the same or will be higher.

In absolute terms, the number reduced to less than one-fourth of what I was getting then. But I was living in my parent's home and half of my foreign income was anyway being spent on accommodation. However the purchasing power or quality of life did not reduce. The flagship phone cost is a good indicator. It was about 20 % of my monthly salary there, but was almost whole of monthly salary here.

3) Is it easier if you are moving to a metro city in India rather than a tier-2 city?

I moved to a tier 3 city. when the city's first IT park opened and a reputed company opened an office there.

4) Did you face issues with pollution, traffic, power cuts, roads, culture, attitude etc.?

Traffic discipline, law and order were the first issues that I faced. I was not married at that time, so it was only about me adjusting back to the conditions that I had earlier been used to.

5) Did you face issues with work culture & work-life balance (like a lot of my friends do)?

Yes, Logging out at 5 PM was the norm earlier. The first project I worked on here, had me working almost till midnight every day. But I was prepared to do it. It was the only good company with an office in my home town then, so I did not differentiate between my success and my company division's growth.

[ninjatalli]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

1) What was the exact reason behind your decision to return to India? Missing home? Family? Patriotism? Or just plain better prospects?

Mix of family and a focus on shifting to a better job role. I could have got the same job shift there but I felt doing that at home made it a better choice.

2) How did you deal with the obvious reduction in your income (unless you built a successful business)? Of course, there is a difference in purchasing power but some costs like say the cost of an iPhone or a foreign holiday will remain the same or will be higher.

On the contrary, I saved better in India. Inspite of spending more on support staff (maid, etc.). Do note, this is a subjective question on the way one lives and which country we are talking about. Back in the US, I lived the life fueled by consumerism; travel and entertainment as well as pandering to my hobbies were more easy to cater to. Also the flight tickets and costs associated to annual India trips (as well as the reverse tourism trips to US for family members) made sure expenses stayed high.

3) Is it easier if you are moving to a metro city in India rather than a tier-2 city?

Depends on your future options and conditions. For me, I moved to metros from a job perspective. If I had an option to move to tier-2 instead, I would have.

4) Did you face issues with pollution, traffic, power cuts, roads, culture, attitude etc.?

Yes definitely. But you get used to them pretty fast. It's the same when you consider in the reverse route; driving on the right, steering wheels on the left; adhering to rules; etc. And it's not so bad these days. Metro city to metro city; the traffic was as bad in NY as I experienced it in Mumbai & Bangalore. Pollution is worse off here, agree. Infrastructure is pretty decent in India (and improving) if you really get beyond the cribbing public. Power cuts is hardly an issue these days. And so on...

5) Did you face issues with work culture & work-life balance (like a lot of my friends do)?

Again this varies case to case basis. Yes, the expectation is to work more here. But one can figure out job options where you close shop at 6 and head home. Of course remuneration, etc are going to be impacted accordingly.

6) Any other issues you'd faced?

Issues were there for me in the US (and later when I did a stint in Middle East) and now in India too. But that's determines the mettle one is made off - how do you handle them.

Just trying to weigh the pros and cons if I were to eventually return to India at some point in life.

Don't overthink it. When I moved back from the US to India 6+ years ago, almost every other friend/colleague voiced their opinion that they badly wanted to come back to India; but lacked the drive to do so. None of those who voiced such views back then have moved back to India. Everyone talks about the opportunity cost - you are leaving a set life in a developed country, prospects of citizenship, etc. But you get to be at home.

You can't look at it quantitatively. Look at it in the long run - 10, 20 years later. Do you think you'll regret the decision you take (reasons are yours). Choose accordingly.

Originally Posted by Samurai

This indicates that you don't really have a strong reason to come back. Once you have a strong reason to come back, it is then you should be weighing the pros and cons.

Otherwise, it will be like a solution looking for a problem. You won't be able to judge which aspects matter most to you. It is highly likely to fail.

I don't think it's always that easy. Yes, some people can have a strong reason; and for those the shift back is inevitable. But for most folks, the reasons fall into a grey area most of the time and people are unable to do the qualitative evaluation.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

Mix of family and a focus on shifting to a better job role. I could have got the same job shift there but I felt doing that at home made it a better choice.

None of those who voiced such views back then have moved back to India. Everyone talks about the opportunity cost - you are leaving a set life in a developed country, prospects of citizenship, etc. But you get to be at home.

Herein lies the major difference for me. My parents live abroad as well, although in a different country. Offcourse, given they're working in a Gulf country as well, they'll have to leave eventually - either to India or with me wherever I end up in. But atleast for now, 'home' for me isn't going back to India but rather visiting my parents in whichever country they are in (since they've been moving quite frequently).

The only reason I'm considering a return to India is because I can't live in the Gulf forever while it's increasingly difficult & less rewarding to move to the West. But things like work-life balance (to some extent, you'll always have to put in long hours at times anywhere but wouldn't want to do it everyday like most of my friends back in India do) and safety (which is why I'll never consider the US) are major deal-breakers. Perhaps Samurai is right

[am1m]

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

Again this varies case to case basis. Yes, the expectation is to work more here. But one can figure out job options where you close shop at 6 and head home.

Originally Posted by dragracer567

But things like work-life balance (to some extent, you'll always have to put in long hours at times anywhere but wouldn't want to do it everyday like most of my friends back in India do)...

Depends on the company and job function. But I think work-life balance has improved tremendously here in India, especially in the IT sector. Over 2 decades in IT and I have very, very rarely had to work overtime or on weekends. Can literally count the number of times that has happened. Of course it's not as balanced as say the EU (from my experience with my European colleagues), but I think it's not as bad as that to be a factor to consider not moving back, I think. Caveat: My experience is all at IT product companies, IT service companies are a different thing altogether! And of course, I have limited knowledge of other sectors, but my friends in other fields also seem to have a better work life balance these days than say 15 years ago.

Today, IMHO the biggest factor to think about when moving back to any of our major cities is the consistently high levels of air pollution. I would be more worried about living in that during most months of the year.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

I don't think it's always that easy. Yes, some people can have a strong reason; and for those the shift back is inevitable. But for most folks, the reasons fall into a grey area most of the time and people are unable to do the qualitative evaluation.

It is not easy exactly for that reason. When you don't have strong reasons to come back, it becomes very hard to justify the compromises involved in coming back. And there are lots of compromises when you come back.

I was part of a forum called R2I (Return2India) for 7 years. There we discussed nothing but the why-what-how of returning India. One pattern was very clear. Those with strong reasons returned, and stayed. People with weak reasons, either never came back, or went back to abroad after couple of years.

[libranof1987]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

1) What was the exact reason behind your decision to return to India? Missing home? Family? Patriotism? Or just plain better prospects?

Everyone has a reason to move abroad:
- because everyone else is doing so
- money
- the good life: think, open-top Mustang, Vegas, party party party
- career opportunities
- wanting to give self/kids a "better quality of life"
- being fed up of living in India (yep, this is one)

So, the return to India happens when the motivation/illusion runs out.

2) How did you deal with the obvious reduction in your income (unless you built a successful business)?

A lot depends on where you come back, and your support system. Eg. if you're from a metro city, find employment there, and have a family home, or can stay with parents - the entire equation changes.

Real estate has become insanely expensive now. It always was as a % of salary, but our parents' needs / wants / indulgences were far, far less than ours are.

Salaries in India are fairly good so you won't exactly struggle to afford luxury.

3) Is it easier if you are moving to a metro city in India rather than a tier-2 city?

Unless you intend to go to your ancestral town and do business or are retiring, who'd move to a tier-2 city? The jobs are in the metros.

4) Did you face issues with pollution, traffic, power cuts, roads, culture, attitude etc.?

That is the reality.

5) Did you face issues with work culture & work-life balance (like a lot of my friends do)?

This is entirely on you and your ambitions. You can work 9 hours/day or you can do 12-15 hours, depending on how you want to tackle your career. And this is geo-agnostic.

One thing is for sure though: career progression will not be as seamless as it is elsewhere. In part because of just the amount of people vying for the same job in India, and in part because India is still a very age-biased society where "number of years of experience" will in most cases shadow capability.

6) Any other issues you'd faced?

You win some and you lose some. Decide what you won't / can't compromise on, and what you're fluid on.

[4WheelPilot]

Any experiences of relocating to South Africa? Found few instances but they are old. Anyone staying long time there in South Africa, especially Johannesberg?

[ex-innova-guy]

Didn’t know where else to post this but an interesting view from an expat about India.

https://youtu.be/0phzthJsoOQ?si=_zUHONs-YE9ZC7Fk

[poloman]

4 Indian/Indian origin students have lost life in last two weeks in USA. Any one is of knowledge what is happening here? Is this random or something lurking underneath? I think all of them except the one who was murdered were teenagers and were not able to cope up with the pressure and uncertainties of life in a new country.

Sending children for undergraduate courses in other countries is a huge risk since they are too young for this, I believe.