[SlowDough]

Originally Posted by Drexler

I want to seek some advice from the experienced ones who have been through something similar to this and made a good and happy living in India. I want to work in Automotive Industry specifically in R&D as this is my dream job.

Thanks,
Yash

I stayed in India consciously. Not that I had every considered doing a masters outside, but I was doing a degree in Automotive Design in India, which included a semester abroad in Germany. Most of my skilled batchmates are not in India for the sake of better work opportunities outside.

In my case, I got naturally interested in a slightly different field of design which had great opportunities in India. At the same time, the same field would have allowed me to migrate outside as well. The main reason to stay in India was that I couldn't see how it is a bad place to be in especially if you can grow your skills (personal and professional) to navigate the challenges of life here. I took it upon myself to enjoy these challenges and I am very satisfied here.

Currently, I am reading a book called Move by Parag Khanna (highly recommended for you). It explains how human migration is as natural as is drinking water. I like his perspective of having a more powerful VISA/Citizenship/PR which allows you to move across borders more freely. As someone who chose to stay in India, I feel that is the only big disadvantage I have right now.

I would urge you to think long term on following aspects:

1. Do you see yourself as a great fit in the Indian culture and politics? Will this culture help you grow and express yourself? The book showed me that progressive countries are not progressive because their people are progressive, but because that is the only way to attract young talent to grow their economies. From that perspective, think about where would you find more like-minded people and a culture that is open enough for you. I am not sure if a country like India which makes deals to supply such talent rather than retain them is going to become progressive as soon as we'd like it to be.

2. How long before you have to absolutely return to India and can you get a citizenship or PR before that? This will keep your options open for the future. Remember, what you think today may be very different 10 years later, especially when you start your own family. Your emotions themselves may warrant leaving India in 10 years from now. In the meantime, build a stronger financial as well as a cultural life for yourself which will probably support you when you eventually wish to move back to India.

3. How stable and independent is your family back in India? In my case, there were ongoing troubles, and I wanted to resolve them. But if your family is generally healthy enough and has stable internal politics, you can use this time to pursue a better life outside.

According to the book, Germany is doing a lot of good things to attract young talent and I envy one of my close friends who moved their for higher studies when no one used to care much about it. I think that you've onto a good start towards being a "global citizen." Europe is in generally doing better than many other countries, as far as youthful progressiveness is concerned, and if you get a German citizenship in the future, you might be able to migrate around Europe as you please!

[turbowhistle]

Originally Posted by androdev

Visit your family/India more often, say 2-3 times a year. Bring your family to Germany once a year to spend time with you and to do some touring, etc. If you get to be together 3-4 times a year, life in Germany may not be so emotionally taxing. Your parents may appreciate the opportunity to experience that part of the world. All this travel will cost you significant money - that's the price to pay which I think is totally worth it if you love being with your family. It's OK if you are unable to start saving from day one or buy house/cars, etc. The real financial dividends will come later in your career if you stay the course and build a great career, so hopefully your early expenses on travel, etc. won't leave any scars. I would like to believe that emigration is possible without completely losing family ties as long as some compromises are made in other areas.

As someone who's going through the same and been in Germany for last 5 years, I can say this will be the most perfect advice on this sensitive topic. Yes you will lose money in traveling and bringing family here but trust me, it helps heaps for the mental health of your parents along with you. We chose to spend 2.5-3 months every year in India and my mother travels to DE whenever her schedule permits so effectively she's around us for 7-9 months in a year. My kid gets to see her grandmother often as well which is another added benifit. As Androdev said, after a while those expenses dont leave any scars once your career picks up pace and you can cover up easily.

My mother loves traveling and has seen India more than what I have seen so she's super happy to travel with us in various EU countries and collect bags from all over the world But unfortunately this only works if your parents are retired and free from the daily routine. Am not sure it should have worked if she was still working.

Originally Posted by Drexler

I want to seek some advice from the experienced ones who have been through something similar to this and made a good and happy living in India. I want to work in Automotive Industry specifically in R&D as this is my dream job.

Thanks,
Yash

I think the above answer covers a lot of things and I have added my experinece as well.

If bringing your parents to DE is not possible then just check with your employer and do short stints of few weeks in India often. It's a bit more cost effective to travel till you are single Just keep your tax and visa status in mind and you should be good to go. Feel free to reach out incase you need anything as well.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Drexler

I personally am not feeling at home here and would prefer moving back to India.

I understand you miss your family, but you haven't really elaborated on why you don't feel at home in Germany. Lots of good advice from other members on your dilemma.

I know from my own experience it takes a bit of time to integrate into German society. But that is probably true for every society, no matter where you find yourself.

The success to emigration, or even to some extend moving within a countries own border is always down to becoming part of the local society asap. If you don't you are going to feel lost. Going by what experience and motivation has been shared on this thread a lot of emigration tends to be driven by financials and or education. Which is understandable.

I think the aspect of really making an effort to integrate and become part of the local community in your new home, is not given enough value and attention in this thread at all. Everybody does it in his/her own way. A couple of pointers from us:

My wife and I have moved all over the world. Even though we always knew our time in whichever country we found ourselves was limited, we always spend a considerable amount of our time ensuring we become part of the local society. Which means actively seeking out your neighbours, and joining societies, and clubs. Whatever you do, you need to actively stay away from your own kind so to speak. Force yourself to meet and become friends with the local people, not just the other emigrants and in particular not the ones from the same country as yourself.

Language is another huge factor. In many countries, you can get by with English. But anywhere in Europe, other than the UK, if you don't speak the local language, it is going to be an issue when it comes to integration in the local society.

We always got subscriptions to the various local newspapers. Language can be a bit of a hindrance here too, so better start those language courses day 1 you arrive.

Make sure not to rely on a social life with only your colleageaus. Try and meet and do stuff with local people. In all societies that requires time and effort to emerge yourselves. But we have always found it very rewarding.

Make sure your apartment and or house you live in, really feels like your home. Which means personalise it,. Paint it the colours you want, get new (or second hand) furniture that you like and enjoy.

Yes, we always missed our family and in particular our children. Yes, it was particularly difficult if anybody in the family needed help or support and we were not there. But for us, those years abroad in all those different countries, our home was in the respective countries where we lived.

As I mentioned, financials and education are important aspects. But living your life in the here and now to the fullest extent possible is also important. I appreciate financials/income, education is a facilitator to some extent in enjoying life to the fullest.

Just remember, virtually nobody on their deathbed yearned for more money or more studying. If they have anything they wished they had done differently or more it usually comes down to very different things all together.

As the Roger Whittaker song goes;

Everybody talks about a new world in the morning. A new world in the morning so they say.
I, myself don't talk about a new world in the morning. A new world in the morning, that's today.
And I can feel a new tomorrow comin' on.
And I don't know why I have to make a song. Everybody talks a bout a new world in the morning. New world in the morning takes so long.
I met a man who had a dream he had since he was twenty. I met that man when he was eighty-one. He said too many
people just stand and wait up til the mornin', Don't they know tomorrow never comes.
And he would feel a new tomorrow coming on. And when he'd smile his eyes would twinkle up in thought. Everybody talks about a new world in the morning. New world in the morning never comes.
And I can feel a new tomorrow coming on.
And I don't know why I have to make a song. Everybody talks about a new world in the morning. New world in the morning takes so long.

https://youtu.be/r9nz_KfxSAM?si=KJRFIAk-GYy_mWT8

Yes, it makes sense to think and plan ahead an all of that, but don't forget to live and find ways to enjoy and make the most of whatever situation you find in.

Carpe Diem as they say! Try it, it got us this far!!

Jeroen

[LiveLife]

Originally Posted by Drexler

I even planned to move back to India in 3-4 years as I wanted to live close to my parents and loved ones. and now contemplating if I should stay in Germany or move back to India. I personally am not feeling at home here and would prefer moving back to India. Currently my thought process has 2 factors - 1. Financial factor 2. Emotional factor. Please let me know if there should be any other factors as well that I should be considering.

When I was in India I had emotional stablity but being a fresher not much of financial stability. Now that I am in Germany I have financial stability but no emotional stability as my loved ones are back in India. I want to move back to India but not sure if moving back right after my Masters without considerable experience will help me towards the financial aspect in the bigger picture. If I plan to stay here for few more years to gain some more international exposure then I probably won't be happy with myself or the way I am living right now.

I want to seek some advice from the experienced ones who have been through something similar to this and made a good and happy living in India. I want to work in Automotive Industry specifically in R&D as this is my dream job.

Hi Yash

Permit me to share my experience, I moved out of India for my U-grad and have been away from India nearing 2.5 decades. Having said that, I spent a total of nearly 5+ years (from 2.5 decades) in India to take care of ailing parent/s.

My learnings, this (re/location related) decision is influenced by three factors: 1) Brains/Logic, i.e., lifestyle, salary, etc; 2) Emotions: parents, family, my country, etc; 3) Hybrid of 1n2: this option is what most expats seek i.e., best of both worlds which is very difficult attain.

Like you, I also struggled with the above considerations for a long while with the bias shifting across above options depending on my situation on a given day/time. The analysis paralysis I went through came back with one common outcome i.e., I would not be able to attain the best of both worlds ever.

Then, while I struggling with this conundrum some uncontrollable circumstances (e.g., parent/s ailment, kids, etc) came into play which auto determined my next move.

Thus, my key take away from the last 25 years is that sometimes you just go with the flow, live your life on a daily basis and let destiny make some decisions which you are struggling to take. And most of the time you wont feel short changed by the decision/s destiny has taken for you.

Hope that helps

[hifisharu]

Originally Posted by Drexler

Hello fellow Team BHPians! This is my very first post so let me introduce myself. I am Yash, 24 year old from Mumbai and currrently living in Muenchen. My username 'Drexler' comes from a Formula Student racecar focused limited slip differential.

I want to seek some advice from the experienced ones who have been through something similar to this and made a good and happy living in India. I want to work in Automotive Industry specifically in R&D as this is my dream job.

Thanks,
Yash

Hey Drexler,

I'm unable to write a private message to you, hence this message here. I'm in the Munich area, Dachau to be specific and work for BMW, Rolls Royce in the Design/ Styling sector. Do give me a shout out, we can meet up and get to know each other.

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

My wife and I are in awe when we hear stories from our kiwi friends. When I was 18, stuck in our study books and not doing a whole let else (Other than play cricket), our kiwi pals were baby sitting some random kid in France. Not only were they exploring another country, they were working in parallel to make ends meet. Grabbing a degree was not the outmost priority, at the time.

Lifestyle and living choices are poles apart.

Different countries/cultures with different priorities I suppose.

Travel and exploration seems to play a relatively larger part of growing up in the western world (compared to India), and it's not some recent thing either. It goes back to several centuries and the tradition continues unbroken, although in different names and forms.

The Grand Tour
That Amazon Show with James May, Richard Hammond and Jeremy Clarkson, right? Well, yeah. The actual expression, "Grand Tour" was apparently coined in the 1600s.

The development of the Grand Tour dates back to the 16th century. One of the earliest Grand Tourists was the architect Inigo Jones, who embarked on a tour of Italy in 1613-14 with his patron Thomas Howard, 14th Earl of Arundel. Jones visited cities such as Parma, Venice and Rome. However, it was Naples that proved the high point of his travels. Jones was particularly fascinated by the San Paolo Maggiore, describing the church as “one of the best things that I have ever seen.”

Why do the Grand Tour?

• For young English aristocrats, embarking on the Grand Tour was seen as an important rite of passage.
• Accompanied by a tutor, a Grand Tourist’s route typically involved taking a ship across the English Channel before travelling in a carriage through France, stopping at Paris and other major cities.
• The Grand Tour provided an opportunity to discover the cultural wonders of Europe and beyond.
• As well as marvelling at artistic masterpieces, Grand Tourists brought back souvenirs to commemorate and display their journeys at home.

Source: https://www.rmg.co.uk/stories/topics...was-grand-tour

Gap year
A gap year, also known as a sabbatical year, is a period of time when students take a break from their studies, usually after completing high school or before beginning graduate school.

During this time, students engage in a variety of educational and developmental activities, such as traveling, working, volunteering, or taking courses.

Gap years are not limited to a year-long break and can range from several months to a few years.

Each year about one in seven Australian year 12 students who go on to a bachelor’s degree take a gap year (although the proportion fell from 16% in 2009 to 11% in 2016).

For some students, this is a practical reality. Students from regional and remote areas are more likely than city students to take a gap year. And students from less advantaged areas are more likely to do paid work during this time.

Why take a gap year?

• It can be a form of self-care.
• Taking a gap year can be dedicated time to explore who you are as a person, build new connections and relationships and be curious.
• You can gain confidence, perspective and open-mindedness.
• From a self-care perspective, it is important to tune in to how you are feeling about yourself and moving ahead with future studies.
• Finishing high school and the stress of exams is draining at the best of times. Studying during the pandemic – away from teachers and friends and with so many disruptions and uncertainties – has been exhausting.

Source: https://www.theguardian.com/australi...te-for-parents



P.S: My knowledge on "Grand Tour" is purely academic based on what I've read from books, and I've heard about gap year from my friends who have either done it themselves or their children have done it. People who have lived in continental EU or the UK might be able to add more light on the former.

The following is my personal musings on this topic, and you can choose to ignore it because it is just one person's viewpoint.

Do I regret not doing things like the gap year? Not really.

• The circumstances and environment I grew up wasn't conducive to it.
  • My parents were paying for my university education and living expenses.
  • I didn't do any part time job before or during university. So, I couldn't afford to spend my time and their money to fund the gap year.
• My first Job in IT offered me numerous opportunities to travel internationally.
  • People often complain about the low starting salary at IT companies. But that (initially) low-paying IT job took me to places that I wouldn't have gone to otherwise at that age.
  • Europe offered the opportunity to travel freely and cheaply.
  • Paris was a cheap bus ride from Brussels.
  • I've stayed in youth hostels in Paris or a small boat in Amsterdam.
  • Yes, I didn't work in a farm or hitchhike my way through Europe, but I didn't have any big monetary or life commitments at that stage and I think that's a sort of experience one should have.

Now, that I live in a country that is conducive to such things what I have l learnt?

• School > University > Job > Marriage > Children > Retirement. This doesn't need to be in a strictly pre-set sequence, duration and some of these are even optional really. The freedom to choose your life pathway at your pace is a luxury.
• I've seen a number of friends take their whole family on a 2-3 month tour during the school term. They aren't hippies mind you. Education doesn't stop at the school gate.
• I personally make an effort to take my daughter to more places than I ever did and much sooner, so she gets to broaden her worldview. If she wants to do a gap year then, sure why not?

Parting thought. More traveling and exposure come with its own challenges or opportunities depending on how you see it.

Example:

• You may take your 3-year-old daughter on a tour to Europe.
• You see that she's happy to just be in a playground and have fun. It's clean and there's no air or water pollution.
• You realize you can't buy that environment from where you came, and that may motivate you to start doing the paperwork for Permanent Residency in a different country.
• Of course, you also realize that you can make your car dreams come true.

[Way2Jimny]

Originally Posted by LiveLife

Thus, my key take away from the last 25 years is that sometimes you just go with the flow, live your life on a daily basis and let destiny make some decisions which you are struggling to take. And most of the time you wont feel short changed by the decision/s destiny has taken for you.

Hope that helps

That is a very sensible advice. At some situations in life we just have to go with the flow. We don't have much to decide when we are stuck in analysis paralysis.

[charanreddy]

Originally Posted by Drexler

Hello fellow Team BHPians! This is my very first post so let me introduce myself. I am Yash, 24 year old from Mumbai and currrently living in Muenchen. My username 'Drexler' comes from a Formula Student racecar focused limited slip differential. In my bachelor years I was involved in my University's Formula Student team so much so that my parents had given up on me. Everyday I used to bunk

…..

Thanks,
Yash

Hi Yash,

I am in the same boat as you. I have been based out of Berlin for the last 15 months or so. My family and relatives stay very close me in Bangalore ( 50 mtrs away). For most Indians meeting family is not a once or twice a year affair, kids don’t ever completely leave home , parents always look to kids and vice versa for support. I am slightly better off as my wife and kid moved recently to Berlin.

Germans are in general nice but they are not a very social group and follow strict boundaries. It’s hard to develop a social circle with local German given the vast differences in language and customs. To give credit where it’s due they are very accommodating, but you don’t get a ‘at home’ feeling.

Regarding your situation, if you feel like coming back home then make preparations for it. Apply for jobs in India from Germany and once you have something you like make the commitment to move back, especially if you don’t intend to acquire citizenship and retire in Germany . The tax and social security systems in Germany are very punitive for folks who want to make a pile and return back home. Given the ramp India is on for the next 20 yrs or so, situation is not the same as 25 yrs back where working abroad was the only way to make money.

[Janus]

On the Contrary, I have always felt at home in Germany, where I spent one year. Loved their culture and their way of working. Especially respecting Private life.

Depends on how each person was brought up in their childhood and the circumstances surrounding them.

If you ask me, India as a country is a walled garden. Both geographically and culture wise.

Geographically, our neighbour on the west is hostile and with mountains on the north. The only free way to exit on land is to the east but it is perpetually in a state of internal civil war, if Myanmar was stable and the population of Bangladesh on the lower side and an highway to east Asia, most of us will drive regularly. Our version of Grand Tour on a cheaper price. Imagine similar scenario with our west neighbour .

Culture wise, we rarely tend to explore in western countries (At least the majority of us), the moment we land, we crave Indian food and look for communities within our own language/culture.

This is exacerbated by the fact most of the Indians are vegetarians and do not drink.

Nothing wrong I would say, but that limits the whole point of moving abroad to earn money. And we are trying to replicate the same walled garden in western cities (Brampton/Southall/East Ham).

Only the second or third generations start mixing with the native people/culture.

If any of the BHP'ians are members of the Facebook groups "Indians in <insertcity>", most of the posts will be like, I'm relocating to so and so city next month, which is the best place to stay where Indian communities and Indian stores are present or they go even specific and ask for specific state or language based communities/roommates.

However, most of the outside folks who relocate to India, they openly embrace Indian culture and even YouTube videos are made where a foreigner was eating with their hands or participating in Indian festivals.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Janus

This is exacerbated by the fact most of the Indians are vegetarians

Interesting, do you have any proof for this claim?

[Janus]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Interesting, do you have any proof for this claim?

I have seen a few of my friends not join the party because there was drinks/meat.

Seen the other group as well, where they come in and enjoy the party even though there were drinks/meat but they stick to soft drinks and vegan meal.

I am friends with both the groups and both are equal.

Cannot comment on the thought process or the reasons of the first group nor would I say they are wrong.
These are just from the views being discussed in this post of better integration or when someone is lonely or unhappy with the migration.

If they are happy with whatever situation they are in after migration, then the above doesn't matter.

Also if absolute proof is required, a larger sample and a scientific study would be needed.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Janus

I have seen a few of my friends not join the party because there was drinks/meat.

Seen the other group as well, where they come in and enjoy the party even though there were drinks/meat but they stick to soft drinks and vegan meal.

Ah, ok. You are only referring to your circle of Indians.

Originally Posted by Janus

Also if absolute proof is required, a larger sample and a scientific study would be needed.

By larger sample, you mean you want to know about most Indians anywhere? Oh, that has been done many times. And even that is supposedly underreported because people don't want to say it openly.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-43581122

[ninjatalli]

Originally Posted by Janus

Also if absolute proof is required, a larger sample and a scientific study would be needed.

Even locally, there's a lot more studies done



Also the figures in above image are under-rated, if you refer to the study report. A good % of vegetarian people on the outside portray they are vegetarian, but then put caveats for themselves; for example, the following scenarios don't signal as them being non-veg
- eating egg based cakes
- once in a while non-veg on special occasions is fine (eg traveling overseas, festivals)
- no non-veg cooked at home but fine to eat once in a while in restaurants.

Originally Posted by Samurai

And even that is supposedly underreported because people don't want to say it openly.

+1

[LiveLife]

Originally Posted by Janus

On the Contrary, I have always felt at home in Germany, where I spent one year. Nothing wrong I would say, but that limits the whole point of moving abroad to earn money. And we are trying to replicate the same walled garden in....

Hi

Interesting views.

Wonedr if the same ('walled garden') principle not apply to other cultures too...be it western, eastern or others?

Sharing my experience of working/living in over 20 countries in the last two decades.

1) As humans we are always seeking proximity and comfort within our imbibed boundaries (be it social or otherwise). There is a very interesting study by Hofstede (guru of cultural studies) that might give an insight to why cultures/people behave the way they do. Like us Indians, you may note westerners, Asians, Africans, etc too stick to their groups, thus the emergence of China towns, Little Italy's, Russian suburbs in foreign countries. While some foreigners are adventurous enough to imbibe the local cultures, there are others who avoid the local culture (and prefer to remain in the comfort of their cultural boundaries) and this trends can be seen across both western and other cultures.

2) On a similar note, I think we Indians are very brave to go out and explore other worlds. There are millions of people like yourself and many others on this forum who left the comfort of their home/s to take on the world. Don't think there are many cultures who are brave enough to go on such permanent adventures. Kudos to us!?

3) On a lighter note, there are a few videos of foreigners eating with their hands (Great!!) but we have been using their practices since birth (knife, fork, spoons and lately chopsticks).

These are just random thoughts and experiences and I don't wish to influence or challenge anyone's views...but we are good!!

[Samurai]

To drag the discussion back to socializing abroad, it is not because of liquor or meat. Most Indians find it difficult to adjust to non-Indian styles of eating. I mean the non-Indianized foreign cuisine, not what you get in India.

My wife and I were very adventurous when it came to food. We tried every cuisine available, except French (too expensive, long reservations). We very rarely visited Indian restaurants while living in USA.

After returning to India, whenever we visited abroad we kept the same tradition. About a decade ago my wife went on a luxury cruise (Celebrity Cruises) through a women's group. Practically everyone in their group were rich ladies from India. Since it was a cruise, she could see what they ate 3-4 times a day for 10 days. They all stuck to Indian food 90% of the time, in a Mediterranean Cruise. This is where they had amazing buffet from around the world 3 times a day, free. My wife was like an advance scout, she would bring unfamiliar stuff to the table, and all the others in the group would extend their spoons for a taste.

When I flew to Japan to cover the Tokyo Motor Show, the sponsor had promptly selected Veg Meal for me on the aircraft. Fortunately, I was able to change it to Japanese meal and managed to have this. What's in it? Who cares... It all tasted exotic, amazing and sometimes like paper.

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

A good % of vegetarian people on the outside portray they are vegetarian

The top two reasons why most Indians join a club in India, in the order of priority:
1) Can't drink liquor at home.
2) Can't eat meat at home.

All the other facilities are way down the priorities. Just yesterday a BHPian shared photos from lunch at a golf club. Out of curiosity I asked if he played golf, he was a firm NO.