[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

You are aware that both UK and USA allow dual citizenship..

Yes,

It appears the world is split almost 50/50

https://immigrantinvest.com/blog/cou...itizenship-en/

Jeroen

[Janus]

Originally Posted by NiInJa

After spending a good 37 years in India, I moved to Glasgow, Scotland in October last year.

Labor, Help etc:
Labour is expensive, so people either fix things on their own, or let things be as it is as long as it is not creating a problem.

Domestic help is one thing, the help we get from our parent's or even neighbors is unmatched in India. Not that there is no domestic help available here, the economics is such that, to get to point where I can afford one,

All the married Indians who move abroad, they always loathe about labour and domestic help.

I would always wish that India would do away with domestic help by increasing the earning capability / wealth as the one who employs them.

Wealth equalisation should be more priority than simply stating that India is 5 Trillion $ economy.

[vishnurp99]

Originally Posted by NiInJa

Money and economics:
With few exceptions, most people moving abroad earn a decent salary with 'ok'ish savings,
Labor, Help etc:
Labour is expensive, so people either fix things on their own, or let things be as it is as long as it is not creating a problem.

My two cents on money/economics :-

When we think about salaries/income in the developed economies, we should stop thinking about the money in terms of conversion rates or savings. Instead the household's income & net wealth has to be benchmarked in terms of where you sit in percentile terms within that specific country.

Most Indians who move abroad on an IT or Medical job are already in the top 5% and in many case in the top 1% in India in terms of their income percentile & net wealth especially when you add up their parent's incomes/inherited property wealth. So they are naturally able to afford things in life like a good house, some labour/help, Bada gadi (in comparison to your poor neighbor lol) etc. In India, if you have property above 2 crores and gross income above 20 LPA, you are probably in the top 5 percentile.

When this same Indian moves abroad, he starts his asset base from zero. In most cases, the money that he makes probably falls in 60-70 percentile of the host country. For eg - in the US to get to top 5%, you need a gross income of 300K USD. Outside a select group of FAANG & similar engineers & investment bankers, not many immigrant indians would make this money. So obviously he is a much smaller frog in a much bigger well now. If he can get to the top 1-5 percentile income, he can also afford the things that he was able to afford in India. The income disparity is actually much bigger in the US now.

If you are Indian & above 35 years & looking to move abroad, I think you should look at the next 3 years and see how you stack up in relative income percentiles in the destination. This will ensure that you make an informed decision.

I honestly do believe that it's worthwhile to move abroad just for the experience and an opportunity to see different countries/cultures/cuisines etc as long as your salary package is half decent.

[Way2Jimny]

Originally Posted by Janus

All the married Indians who move abroad, they always loathe about labour and domestic help.

I would always wish that India would do away with domestic help by increasing the earning capability / wealth as the one who employs them.

Wealth equalisation should be more priority than simply stating that India is 5 Trillion $ economy.

Though I appreciate your concern for equality,I'm not sure in which country the salary of an employee is fixed based on the earning potential or wealth of the employer.
Salary is based on skills, market standards and demand /supply logic.
That being said, mostly full time maids are paid decent money in major cities and it's very difficult to get one. They ask more than what an entry level IT employee would get paid in India.

Wealth equalization is not a priority even for developed countries. It is not in the scheme of capitalism.

I see many who move abroad boast about quality of life and clean parks and infrastructure. For me quality of life is when you know you can afford help when things go down south. A clean park or road will be least of my worry.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Janus

Culture wise, we rarely tend to explore in western countries (At least the majority of us), the moment we land, we crave Indian food and look for communities within our own language/culture.Nothing wrong I would say, but that limits the whole point of moving abroad to earn money. And we are trying to replicate the same walled garden in western cities (Brampton/Southall/East Ham). If any of the BHP'ians are members of the Facebook groups "Indians in <insertcity>", most of the posts will be like, I'm relocating to so and so city next month, which is the best place to stay where Indian communities and Indian stores are present or they go even specific and ask for specific state or language based communities/roommates.

What you say is true. To a large extent it is the tendency of not just Indians but any migrant community to herd together till they find their feet one generation later. I wonder to what extent it is a function of vibes given off by the host community who may not be too happy seeing coloured folks flooding in. India has over 50,000 African students. They struggle to integrate with us. Part of the reason is us. Integration is a two way street. Whether in India or in canada/USA I'd say there are gaps on both sides and that is not surprising.

However, most of the outside folks who relocate to India, they openly embrace Indian culture and even YouTube videos are made where a foreigner was eating with their hands or participating in Indian festivals.

A hundred YouTube videos don't represent the world. My experience in my own little micro universe is quite different. Some integrate, some don't, and some clearly don't wish to. Allow me to offer my little world. I live in a colony with about 600 apartments across several towers. About 100 are occupied by foreigners - corporate expats or diplomatic officials. Our RWA & Club makes a great effort to help new comers integrate, celebrate festivals together, etc. A few foreigners participate most don't. I was in charge of the RWA for some years and I know how much effort we made. As a trend Anglo Saxons are more open, at least in my little community and East Asians and Africans are least integrated and largely don't wish to. Amongst the whites, Scandinavians, Germans, East Europeans have shown the least interest to move beyond their closed group. Your observations like mine are but a tiny part of a vast spectrum. Hard to draw sweeping conclusions.

Originally Posted by Janus

All the married Indians who move abroad, they always loathe about labour and domestic help.

Yes we all miss the luxuries we no longer have. Just like Westerners & I dare say some NRI's moving to India on transfer miss Western conveniences and traffic sense and clean air. Most Westerners moving to India take on domestic staff - why - because it is a useful and convenient system.

I would always wish that India would do away with domestic help by increasing the earning capability / wealth as the one who employs them.
Wealth equalisation should be more priority than simply stating that India is 5 Trillion $ economy.

Are we saying being a domestic staff earning enough to educate the next generation is a job to be looked down upon simply because it is domestic work? Your statement professes egalitarianism in one part and displays age old prejudice in another or maybe I'm reading it wrong. Would you or other NRIs stop shopping at Walmart or buying from Amazon because they pay only minimum wage? Most domestic staff in India especially in the 15 to 20 large cities earn way above minimum wage in India. Always wondered why some NRIs look down on India's system of domestic staff. It is IMHO a great mutual support. It provides a half way decent living to our vast population of untrained labour.

Originally Posted by Way2Jimny

Though I appreciate your concern for equality,I'm not sure in which country the salary of an employee is fixed based on the earning potential or wealth of the employer.
Salary is based on skills, market standards and demand /supply logic.
That being said, mostly full time maids are paid decent money in major cities and it's very difficult to get one. They ask more than what an entry level IT employee would get paid in India. Wealth equalization is not a priority even for developed countries. It is not in the scheme of capitalism.

Thank you I could not have said it better.

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by NiInJa

After spending a good 37 years in India, I moved to Glasgow, Scotland in October last year. The reason was just one: Have my kid spend time together with his cousin as both don't have siblings. In that sense, I feel 'mission accomplished'. Both are under 7 and the bond they have now living together is something that cannot be described in words.

Good on you, and your wife for taking the effort to make this happen.

I worked in a small town outside of Glasgow for a brief period in 2006. Beautiful place with a rich architecture. I liked it.

I was surprised to see the streets (in the town) go dead silent after 5 pm. Insert Del Amitri’s lyrics, “And by five o'clock everything's dead and every third car is a cab”.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxbIU0X-lCI

The Glasgow town centre was busy though. I don’t know how things are these days.

Originally Posted by NiInJa

It depends a lot on 'when' you move abroad, the earlier in your age, the better.

I agree. I migrated in my early 30s and I can imagine how much of a reset it is on many fronts for you in your late 30s. So yeah, the earlier the better. However, hindsight is 20/20. Our choices are based on the circumstances. So, better late than never. Having said that, I probably wouldn’t have traded early migration for the first five years my daughter spent with my parents. So I have no regrets.

I was content with having the Lancer Evolution as my office desktop wallpaper in Scotland in 2006.


By the time I realised I can actually do something to have that in my real garage, the car was out of production and I ended up buying the cheaper/less-capable nemesis the WRX (non-STI) in 2016.
Photo credit: mitsipajero

I also took this picture in Scotland in 2006. Fulfilling dreams is an expensive affair. Sigh.


Sorry, where am I going with this personal anecdote? Life happens and we can’t plan for everything. It’s better to be ready to adapt to changes. If that makes sense.

Originally Posted by NiInJa

The Emotional connect:
Since I've moved here, I find it difficult to connect with people who are in their 30s as well. As they too have made their emotional connect with their group. If I had come here 10 years back, things would have been different. Like they say, it is very difficult to make close friends once you cross the 30s.

I cannot discuss Indian politics, or the topics which I am comfortable with with having uncomfortable discussions with my friends back in India.

It simply gets boring at times.

I’m sorry to know. I hope you are able to find your tribe, expand on your interests and able to form some new friendships. It isn’t easy but it is not impossible either. Check out the below posts,

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

My comments are specifically for New Zealand. We've been living here since April 2017.

Originally Posted by kiku007

Quit/Purge some time wasting old WA/social groups. Make time for the new by giving up some of the old.

Also, more friendships have been broken than formed by discussing Indian politics these days. Lol. Last week I hoped Whatsapp provided the ability to mute members temporarily from posting because I couldn’t stop two people from arguing and one of them left the group! Haven’t we all seen that happen?

When we move abroad, our parents are also open to the idea of travelling abroad. My mother had never travelled abroad before I migrated. She has since visited a host of south Asian countries and has now got her US visa stamped and is ready to make a trip there. It has helped to broaden their worldview and form a better appreciation of things in India and abroad.

Originally Posted by NiInJa

Labor, Help etc:
The monotony triggers me literally! The time I get for doing stuff I really 'want' to do, comes at an expense of not doing some chore, or my wife taking it up at the cost of her time. It might feel like a small thing, but it does take a toll mentally.

Chores and raising a child are indeed taxing. I think over a period of time you’ll find ways to master it. This includes being able to take advantage of automated machines, engaging professional cleaners/nannies/baby sitters and outsourcing chores to children. Also, let’s be honest. The cleaner environment (air, water etc.) means the frequency and intensity of cleaning is lesser compared to Indian metros.

In my experience most people actually find they have more time to do what they really want to do abroad because they save so much more time that’ll be spent on wasteful long hours of commuting or staying late of the office because that’s the norm. Personally speaking I hadn’t cleaned a toilet, did laundry or cooked proper meals before I migrated. Funnily enough, I found my calling in cleaning and I’m obsessed with cleaning and laundry now. It is borderline OCD now that a friend joked that I should stop keeping the house as spotless as museum. Strangely, I get my cars cleaned at the car wash. They do such a good job so I’ve outsourced it.

Originally Posted by NiInJa

I'll try to pen down more, but let me tell you that it is not all gloomy here.


Living abroad is fun in its own way, the experiences of getting into new places are some of the best memories I will have when I grow old.

In the next post, I'll write all the positives too, as I feel this post has become a bit too negative.

I don’t think your post is negative. It offers a perspective that is important for prospective migrants to be aware of. In fact I’m surprised you haven’t mentioned the challenges related to weather or post Brexit politics/economics in the UK.

P.S: My intent is to not water down the issues you have highlighted. They are valid and I think they are part of the settling down phase. I hope the positives outweigh the negatives over a period of time. Good luck!

[adi_gt]

Moved to Montreal Canada after spending 41 years in India. Remember its in Quebec and comes with it own set of challenges regarding language etc and residency issues etc. First impressions are
a) What a lovely weather we have in our country and how much effort we need to put to even enjoy a stroll in the park in Canada most of the year (dressing up, long shoes, 15 mins to get ready and 5 mins to dispose off after coming back) ( Canada has the parks, India has the weather )
b) We have destroyed our cities in terms of inorganic growth, no planning, heavy corruption at all levels. We have forgotten to even breathe at AQI below 50.
c) Like a normal desi - missing the general chaos (its a fact guys- lets accept it), honks, general warmth of people whom you even don't know.
d) Systems DO work in Canada.
e) Insurance costs are prohibitive. They basically force you to not make a mistake on the road or even in your dwellings etc.
f) If you love nature - come to Canada. Within 50-100kms of the metropolitan area -> You will be in deep dark woods. Only you, your dog, sound of the stream and snow.
*btw I will be back in some years despite all what Canada offers - Home is where heart is and continue to rant on Bangalore Traffic thread*

[VaibhavShatna95]

Hello dear BHPians,

I have a very personal question to ask you all since its the first time I have been in such a dilemma and my friends are pretty close to my age so getting their opinions might be myopic.

I have an offer from a product based firm within my hometown which is fuss free and the easiest path to take + learning opportunities as an hands on engineer is more.
The other one would be migrating to Europe with almost a similar package in terms of PPP (slightly lower but decent enough) with my current employer which is a WITCH company. The benefit is I have been promoted multiple times so I don't expect to be an IC anymore for anything but the most crucial and interesting tasks. I have loved to travel till now as well going to about 6 trips in last 12 months, of which 2 were international but at the same time cooking, cleaning and other household chores is not something I have taken care off. I have been working remotely since pandemic before which I was working in a different state but with house helps.
I am about to be 30 and my parents are well off and I have younger siblings as well so while I love my family, me being physically present does not impact their survival.

Which would be a better path to take if you were in my shoes as a bachelor? I know there is nothing wrong with opting for either but still I want to make the wiser decision.
Also Germany vs UK which would be a better option for someone who doesn't know German?

[androdev]

Originally Posted by VaibhavShatna95

Which would be a better path to take if you were in my shoes as a bachelor? I know there is nothing wrong with opting for either but still I want to make the wiser decision.

All things being equal, taking up the overseas assignment with a plan to return later would be an easy choice as it would be a good life-experience. However it looks like you are also required to choose between product+IC job vs services+manager(?) roles - this should also be taken into consideration based on your long term outlook. I would say pick the job role first and then pick the location. You can always change the location in future - changing line of work is much harder.

[VaibhavShatna95]

Originally Posted by androdev

All things being equal, taking up the overseas assignment with a plan to return later would be an easy choice as it would be a good life-experience. However it looks like you are also required to choose between product+IC job vs services+manager(?) roles - this should also be taken into consideration based on your long term outlook. I would say pick the job role first and then pick the location. You can always change the location in future - changing line of work is much harder.

The job roles is of Senior Infosec engineer vs being an Architect for a specific platform.

In Product company I can reskill into multiple technologies but will have to deal with some mundane incidents whereas in current company it would be mostly building architecture, roadmap and doing implementation.

[nirmaljusdoit]

Originally Posted by adi_gt

Moved to Montreal Canada after spending 41 years in India. Remember its in Quebec and comes with it own set of challenges regarding language etc and residency issues etc.
*btw I will be back in some years despite all what Canada offers - Home is where heart is and continue to rant on Bangalore Traffic thread*

Just to add to your points, as one grows older, the tendency to handle stressful situations which one is continuously faced with and the ability to relax and destress also matters and that is the feedback I received from my friend who moved to Canada. He says that he is much more realaxed and his overall health has improved being in the midst of nature along with proper work life balance.

[dailydriver]

I think Musk gets it right, almost!

[ijeet]

First time in my life I loved living in INDIA (Since I started working) and now I have to move abroad at the ripe age of 47

Spent most of my working life in Bangalore, while I love the people and life long friends which I made during my stay here but I could never feel home. Long commute to work and apartment living was taking its toll. Wife decided she needs a PHD and moved to NZ to get one while I got stuck here with kids due to border closures.

Decided to Move back to hometown lock stock and barrel as office allowed WFH. I just loved it, Staying with parents, no commute, everything just a phone call away, no water woes, living in a house, mountains just an hour away. What else one needs in life but wife loved NZ more than our quaint little town and decided to stay there, picked up residency, moved kids and now I will have to follow.

I love NZ as it has ample opportunities when it comes to my hobbies Hunting, fishing, shooting etc but getting into job market in this age is giving me chills. lets see what life has in store for me ..

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by ijeet

I love NZ as it has ample opportunities when it comes to my hobbies Hunting, fishing, shooting etc but getting into job market in this age is giving me chills. lets see what life has in store for me ..

Depends on your skill set. If you are hands-on type of engineer, you could even do remote work.

[prasha7]

Greetings BHPians,

This is my first post here, have been following this thread from long time and would like to get inputs from esteemed and learned members of this community. To give a brief info about me:
I'm a software developer with six years of professional experience, with an annual earnings of approximately 75 lakhs. Recently, I have been granted an H1B visa through a reputable US consultancy, offering around $115K USD. While the precise location within the US is yet to be determined, indications point towards either California or Texas.

Prior to relocation, I anticipate traveling only upon the assignment of a specific project, ensuring a tangible earning prospect rather than idling on the bench. Wanted to get a view from everyone here that should I move to US, I can switch companies after few months and earnings would be increased but I'm also reaching 30s (currently 28 years) so need to settle on personal front (marriage stuff) due to family

Should I go there and spend few years and come back from experience perspective or continue in India and focus on my career?

Thanks in advance for your help and advice.