[kushagra452]

I received my Canadian PR card in March 2020 (!). However, I have only been deferring my plans of making a move to Canada for the past 24 months. The current economic situation is deterring me from immigrating to Canada (I work in the Consulting/Strategy industry). My wife is also not that enthusiastic about making a move there. Alas, I guess my PR card will most likely expire (March 2025) without me stepping foot in the country.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by kiku007

Irony dies when people in a automotive forum gloat about cheap rates for domestic help in India.

Have stayed out of this discussion recently because I don't have any experience living for more than a couple of weeks in any other country, but thank you for saying this!

Most of my older relatives too keep saying how easy it is to get everything done in India using "help" (at least they understand it's no longer cool to say "servants"). And how sad they are for their children abroad who have to "struggle to manage with their children" and household chores, along with work.

Cheap labour because of a lack of options for most of our fellow countrymen has become a source of pride I guess, since it's yet another reason not to emigrate.

[poloman]

Originally Posted by kiku007

Well, domestic help in a western country can be arranged at Indian rates with 19th century slavery terms and conditions if one can get themselves to be a Babu at the Indian High commission. Win-win for the employer.

[*]Her duties included cleaning the house, preparing meals and tidying the garden, and she was only let out of the house to walk Mr Suri's dog.[*]Ms Sherghill was initially paid the equivalent of about $7.80 per day, before she complained, and Mr Suri increased her rate to $9 per day.[*]In total, she received about $3,400 for her 13 months of work.[*]Ms Sherghill had previously worked for Mr Suri while he served as India's Ambassador to Egypt, but said this was a much different experience, as she was solely responsible for the upkeep of the eight-bedroom house.
[

It is very heartening to note that she was treated well in Egypt and the whole issue popped up in Australia. She was not very interested for a citizen ship in Egypt perhaps.
One of my friend in Singapore nearly went behind bars just for getting a maid from Kerala for looking after his newborn. She directly went to Police citing harassment and sought asylum.

When they have no interest to return, we can conclude that the charges are mostly made up to suit western standards.

Irony dies when people in a automotive forum gloat about cheap rates for domestic help in India.

Do NRIs pay western rates to domestic helps and home nurses who are looking after their parents and properties back home citing dignity of human labor?

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by kiku007

Irony dies when people in a automotive forum gloat about cheap rates for domestic help in India.

I am sorry, what is the connection between this story and domestic help situation in India?

The victim of the story you shared was paid AUD$9/day for an 17.5h day. That would make it ₹27/hour pay. Here in Bangalore I pay ₹200/hour for our domestic help and it is still affordable. She works 2h/day for 6 days a week. She works multiple homes too.

[sunilch]

Originally Posted by kiku007

Irony dies when people in a automotive forum gloat about cheap rates for domestic help in India. Those poor people don't have enough bargaining power or regulations to demand more and hence, they get paid less and consequently they are poor and due to which the beloved nation has millions of people below the poverty line.

No one here (this thread) has taken any pride in getting access to 'cheap' labor. Everyone here is only saying that it is easy to get access to domestic help or get many such chores done while being at home or at office. For example, ironing, milk delivery, quick delivery for any item, car wash, a day helper for senior or infants at home, etc. All such services are easily available.

The story applies to not just India but any country which is not 'developed' in media sense.

We all would want to pay as much low as possible anywhere in the world. Market rates are purely determined by demand and supply. Rates for domestic help within the same city vary from society to society, suburb to suburb. We, the consumers of the same, have limited say in that. If I can't afford to keep a carwash helper (no matter the rates), I won't employ him and would wash my car myself. If I can afford the to keep him for twice a day, I would (no matter the rate).

Simply because the minimum labor rate is fixed in a country doesn't mean everyone there is happy to pay that much.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by sunilch

No one here (this thread) has taken any pride in getting access to 'cheap' labor.

Agreed.

But it's being touted as a reason to not emigrate and I think it's good to get the whole picture why that 'plus point' exists. That's all.

Actually this thread has basically become a "reasons to not emigrate anywhere" thread and an opportunity to virtue signal 'patriotism'.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by am1m

Actually this thread has basically become a "reasons to not emigrate anywhere" thread and an opportunity to virtue signal 'patriotism'.

Not at all. It is injecting some reality into the hype of living abroad. If you have facts disputing our experiences, let's hear it.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by Samurai

If you have facts disputing our experiences, let's hear it.

Fair enough. I don't have any, but all I'm saying is I don't understand why people who want to emigrate can't have a thread where they can ask questions about the process, instead of the discussion always veering into why it's a bad decision. I think we've done that aspect to death already, IMHO.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by am1m

I don't understand why people who want to emigrate can't have a thread where they can ask questions about the process

It is not this thread. Please check the very first post of this thread. Following are the questions asked...

Originally Posted by saildrive

1) Is Canada a good country to go to? Why not Australia or New Zealand?

2) Why should one go to Canada - better lifestyle / better education for kids / cleaner - greener country / good living & civic habits and in all some sort of peace of mind

3) Does India not offer similar or better opportunities - If not now, dont we imagine that things will get better in days / months / years to come.
.
.
.

So there is nothing wrong in discussing the pros and cons of emigration in this thread.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by Samurai

So there is nothing wrong in discussing the pros and cons of emigration in this thread.

Agree completely, the cons points of any review, especially from personal experience, are the most valuable.

But again, IMHO by now anyone who actually wants to ask about any emigration process must be thinking twice about doing so on this thread because they'll get schooled by vastly more experienced members on why it's better to stay with the motherland.

Originally Posted by Samurai

And if they lie or misrepresent facts,...

Pretty sure no one on this thread has done that, at least not intentionally. (And just to clarify, I certainly didn't mean to imply that.)

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by am1m

they'll get schooled by vastly more experienced members on why it's better to stay with the motherland.

And if they lie or misrepresent facts, they will get corrected by others who know the facts. That's what makes TeamBHP an effective discussion forum.

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by Samurai

I am sorry, what is the connection between this story and domestic help situation in India?

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm trying to point out that the typical Indian domestic worker in India is paid low. The story is an example of this practice extending beyond the shores.

Originally Posted by sunilch

Simply because the minimum labor rate is fixed in a country doesn't mean everyone there is happy to pay that much.

But they pay and if they don't pay, it can be challenged and enforced. That's exactly what the example I shared demonstrated. Just to be clear, it is not as if all employers and companies are saints or do this out of compassion. They have to comply and that's how certain minimum standard of living can be achieved.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by kiku007

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm trying to point out that the typical Indian domestic worker in India is paid low. The story is an example of this practice extending beyond the shores.

In the story you shared, the victim was getting much much less than what Indian domestic worker would get paid in Indian cities. Cooks get even more pay. That story is no reflection on India.

[The Rationalist]

Originally Posted by kiku007

Better to start teaching children to clean, wash and cook now.
I agree on the social integration part.
I would like to add that it is not just Indians who want the Indian economy to grow fast.

Having said that, the above is a marathon and not a sprint race. There's a long way to go. So IMHO it is not wise to claim that it is foolish to emigrate now for economic reasons. A lot can happen in 10, 20 or 30 years. Relatively speaking, one has better visibility on the next 1, 2 or 3 years at best. So it is up to the individual to determine what gives them and their family the future they dream of. Are they ready to wait for it for 3 or 30 years? I can't answer that for others.

I'm no way against anyone migrating, my own sister is resident of Western country. I'm one of the few of my cousins who stayed back. There are lot of good things with life in a developed country, no doubt. Western countries have been able to develop a system that has made it work over a long period of time. It's not that Westerners have some kind of superior skills, on the contrary most of us will find them pretty average in intellect. They are trained to fit in the system, so they are way more organised & punctual. You should live with a German to know the extent of that!

If someone thinks that emigrating is the panacea for all your woes, they will be wrong by a mile and half. Most people emigrate because they feel it will make them happy, the truth is that if you are unhappy person to begin with, mostly you are going to end up as an unhappy person in a different country. And if someone has pipe dreams of becoming rich just by emigrating, I can only wish them well.

I will end with an anecdote. The happiest person I have ever met in my life was a old manual labourer in my youth while living in Wayanad, a tribal district. I spent my childhood there. There was this tribal guy who was above 60 or 70, who had only a towel around his waist at all times. He never had a full dhoti. He used to do lot of chores, he used to cut fire wood for us once a week or so or fetch water in dry season. He was so happy that I was bewildered that how can such a poor fellow be happy. I realised very late that you won't be able to find happiness anywhere, it has to come from within. It depends on lot of your choices you make as a young person. No amount of money will bring you happiness. I thought getting more money would make me happy, my first salary was a low 5 figure one, my salary has increased by 30 times in last 2 decades, that too after not being the best in my profession. There are lot of better professionals in my profession who earn less than me. Am I happy, no way, I was far more happier when I had a 4 figure stipend. I can easily emigrate as my field of specialisation is a very sought after one and can triple the salary and can afford a Porsche or Ferrari. I will trade my present salary for a happier me. Emigrate if you feel life is miserable in India because of lack of amenities, infrastructure, pollution, corruption and you are absolutely helpless to change it. There are two kinds of men, those who plant trees and the ones who sit in its shades. Without the former types, there wouldn't be any shade to sit under. I'm a pessimist by nature, but I'm extremely optimistic of India's future, not because I'm patriotic (I'm not at all!), but because of what I have been seeing happen right infront of my eyes from 70's till now. As Andy Dufrane told Red from Shawshank Redemption, "Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things and no good thing ever dies".

[MaanSingh]

Don't get me wrong, I would suggest each and everyone of us to try living abroad if they have slightest such desire and see if that works well for them.

Lots of people will find it great but there are many others who do miss and start understanding\appreciating life back in India also after living abroad for a long time.

People don't return back to India unfortunately even if they want to as they are scared of moving "backwards" in life (from where they started), but that's not the right attitude towards life I think.

Have a look at the video below for another interesting prespective on minimalism and what might actually give us happiness.
This is one extreme lifestyle but helps in understanding where could be the balance or centre point that we may need to find for our own, which will be different for different people of course.

https://youtu.be/21j_OCNLuYg?si=I-X7F-1hwBWgAEuM