[PGA]

Originally Posted by sourav9385

Hello fellas,

Need some serious help this time.
The wife and I are seriously considering leaving the motherland for good, considering the seriously falling standards and scams and the general nonsense that’s been going around these days.
Every time we step out of the house, we get totally fed up with every single thing we lay eyes on.

I understand your lament for this country, we don't feel much different here. But I would like to reiterate what you perhaps already know. Its not all roses out there, I am reminded of few lines from Hamlet and I quote

" To be, or not to be, that is the question:
Whether 'tis Nobler in the mind to suffer The Slings and Arrows of outrageous Fortune,
Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles, And by opposing end them: to die, to sleep

No more; and by a sleep, to say we end The heart-ache, and the thousand Natural shocks
That Flesh is heir to? 'Tis a
consummation
Devoutly to be wished. To die to sleep,
To sleep, perchance to Dream; Ay,
there's the rub,
For in that sleep of death, what dreams
may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal
coil,
Must give us pause. There's the respect
That makes Calamity of so long life:
For who would bear the Whips and
Scorns of time,
The Oppressor's wrong, the proud man's
Contumely,
The pangs of despised Love, the Law's
delay,
The insolence of Office, and the Spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his Quietus make
With a bare Bodkin? Who would Fardels
bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after
death,
The undiscovered Country, from whose
bourn
No Traveller returns, Puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we
have,
Than fly to others that we know not of.
Thus Conscience does make Cowards of
us all,
And thus the Native hue of Resolution
Is sicklied o'er, with the pale cast of
Thought,
And enterprises of great pitch and
moment,
With this regard their Currents turn awry,
And lose the name of Action. Soft you now,"

[YaeJay]

If I have not already replied to this thread, NO.
If you Go, be loyal to the place you go to. I don't believe in dual citizenship. Immigration for good is different from work permit. I consider my friends who immigrate for a better life a citizen of that country of their choice and wouldn't call them Indian citizens.

[download2live]

Originally Posted by sourav9385

Now, time to provide some background info about us. The wife and I are working in the IT sector, but not in the service based industry.
We work for a major product based company that makes some of the best Antivirus and Internet Security software available today.

I think I know which company it is.

Originally Posted by sourav9385

So we see two options.

1. Join a service based company and badger the management to send us abroad with an L1/H1 visa.
2. Try and get an H1 Visa processed ourselves and then look for jobs abroad.

Option 2.

Originally Posted by sourav9385

1. Does moving to a service company in these dark and difficult times make any sense?

I am assuming that you have never worked in Indian service based company ever. If this is true then do not ever join Indian Service based company. You will not be able to survive the ordeal. This is coming from a guy who has put 3 yrs in Service based company and now working in Product based company. There is a huge huge difference in terms of respect for employees. You have been spoiled by Product based company work culture.

Originally Posted by sourav9385

2. Will an outside consultancy be of any help in this matter?

Yes.

BTW US is still the best country to immigrate to. Try to convince your wife on that.

[Gandhi]

Originally Posted by sourav9385

1. Does moving to a service company in these dark and difficult times make any sense?

IMO absolutely NO. I work for a product company and my wife worked for an Indian Service based company. So I know how bad it is service companies in India. You need anything but your engineering skills to survive there.

2. Will an outside consultancy be of any help in this matter?

This I think is your best bet. Right now the US job market is pretty good, especially in Silicon Valley. I know a couple of friends who chose this path. Let me ping them and send you some pointers through PM.

One more option you might have is to get transferred intra-company. I'm not talking about a work assignment, but a permanent position. I'm not sure about your company but most product companies allow this, it's just that the management in India don't encourage it for obvious reasons. If you have some contacts in US, try to talk to them. It's like applying for a new job in the same company. That's how I landed here.

[bond_bhai]

Originally Posted by sourav9385

Hello fellas,


2. Try and get an H1 Visa processed ourselves and then look for jobs abroad.

Thanks for looking through this long post of mine.
Cheers!

How would one go about doing this? My friends/me have tried talking to several consultants, but most were reluctant to even find a "Sponsor"! As far i know, you need a sponsor for H1. How would one go about finding a sponsor or a consultant for H1 Visas?

[selfdrive]

Originally Posted by sourav9385

Now, the wife is not keen on moving to US.
She says she would rather move to Canada/Australia/New Zealand.
I do not have a choice as such, but would prefer moving someplace cold.

In my opinion, it is better to choose a country (and type of visa) where your wife will be able to work too. Whether she works or not is something you can tackle later, but its better to have that choice.
I can totally understand your frustrations. Many of us who have returned to India go through this on an unfortunately regular & frequent basis. However, I suggest that you take a well thought of decision at this moment than reviewing it later. Emigrating is not an overnight process and will take some time, whichever country you go to unless you have a job position waiting for you abroad in your current organisation.
Please think long term.
Also please also consider the US is one large country and its extremely diverse in weather patterns, standard of living, people, etc. For example, I would be happy to move to the West coast, but not so much for the East coast. You just need to know what kind of life you want to live. It doesnt make sense to jump from the frying pan into the fire (or in your case, the freezer, as you want to go to a cold place )
And chill man, everything has a time to it. Just set a target and a decent timeframe to it. Dont expect to go away tomorrow, it will only stress you out more. (look who's talking!!)

Originally Posted by download2live

I am assuming that you have never worked in Indian service based company ever. If this is true then do not ever join Indian Service based company. You will not be able to survive the ordeal.

I agree 100%. Unfortunately I have seen too many such situations on both sides, so I am not sure if it is restricted to the company. Its more in our attitude these days.
What I would like to say is that no company can guarantee you an onsite move, it also depends on your travel history and the general mood of the person at the embassy. doing it yourselves is the best option.

again, being abroad is not a bed of roses. please go through some of our checklists in the earlier pages and see if you still want to make the move.

[adits]

Originally Posted by sourav9385

So we see two options.

1. Join a service based company and badger the management to send us abroad with an L1/H1 visa.
2. Try and get an H1 Visa processed ourselves and then look for jobs abroad.

Now, the wife is not keen on moving to US.
She says she would rather move to Canada/Australia/New Zealand.
I do not have a choice as such, but would prefer moving someplace cold.
Anyways, this brings us to the important questions that we have for you all.

1. Does moving to a service company in these dark and difficult times make any sense?

I am talking about the severe restrictions about US visas these days and the halt on Skilled Worker Immigration program for Canada.
Even if we switch, and switch we can easily, is there a high possibility that we will be sent onsite, say within 1-2 years?
I know L1 visas need the applicant to be working with the current organization for at least a year before the application can be done.

2. Will an outside consultancy be of any help in this matter?

Hi Sourav,
1. The moment you mention H1/L1, these are US visas. The similar visas for other countries are called differently.
2. By just joining a service company, you may not get an opportunity to go onsite and even if you do it need not be long term, which is what you are looking at. I have known people who have spent years (7-8 years) without an onsite opportunity in one of the Top 4 IT cos.
3. An outside consultancy may at best offer you some advice and guidance to which country may be suitable for you. However, I would take that with a pinch of salt as many of these agencies do tend to be biased for/against certain countries and quite a few of them are just hype but do not have the resources to help you out.

The other factors that may prove difficult are -
1. Many countries (Australia, Canada, etc.) offer a better chance of a visa only if you have a job offer in hand before you can apply for a visa. On the other side, getting a job offer from India is very difficult for lower level people as companies prefer to interview and select people only if you are available onsite.
2. IIRC, the visa process for Canada and Australia (2 countries where I myslef have been considering) takes about 12-14 months. No company will wait that long for anyone.

Hence, according to me, you have a better chance of getting an opportunity with your current organization in 2-3 years. I would advise to stay put and use this rather than shift (which means you will get an opportunity may be only after 1 year at least) or go for an outside consultancy where results are not guaranteed.

Finally, being an optimist, I do hope things improve here. That will negate the reason to emigrate.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by sourav9385

I do not have a choice as such, but would prefer moving someplace cold.

Have you been outside India for short/long trips? What places - what seasons? Likewise, the same question about your wife.

[sourav9385]

Whoa! So many replies in a single day! Awesome! Thanks for all the replies fellas. Extremely appreciated!

Originally Posted by PGA

I understand your lament for this country...

Thanks again for the response mate. We are considering moving abroad for good. It may be for a few years, or it may be for the rest of our lives, we don't have any issues to be honest. Only thing is, we don't want to go for 3-6 months or so. No short term onsite projects. We also don't mind coming back in 3-5 years, stay here and get the visa extended again. But honestly, we have had enough of trying to make things work in India.

Originally Posted by YaeJay

If I have not already replied to this thread, NO...

Thanks for the response mate, much appreciated. Dual citizenship and all comes after we get a chance to move abroad. Right now, we are simply considering the best way to move abroad, at the earliest. Once we get that sorted out, and we actually make it to the other country, can we actually think about settling down there and other stuff.

Originally Posted by download2live

I think I know which company it is...

Lol, I kinda gave it away didn't I? Anyways, to clarify on your query, we did start our careers with a service based company. It was not the best IT company, and then two years later it gave India another massive scam. We bailed like Chow Yun Fat in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. Never looked back since. But nowadays, with rising scams and falling standards and general nonsense, in some deep dark corner of our minds, we silently repent the fact that we moved from the Service industry to the Product industry. We think, maybe, if we stayed, if we weathered the crapstorm that is the service company, maybe, we could have been sent onsite. And it's that precise feeling that compels us to consider a craptastic service company again.

Originally Posted by Gandhi

IMO absolutely NO...

Thanks for the response mate, much appreciated. We too, know how bad the service environment is. We are considering meeting up with the consultancy officials over the weekend seriously to see what all we can do to speed this thingy up.

Originally Posted by bond_bhai

How would one go about doing this?...

Hm, the sponsor thingy is another big pain in the butt. And that's another reason the wife is not keen on US. We are not sure about permits and all for other countries like Canada/Oz, but if they don't have the sponsor thingy, then we will give them countries a much more higher precedence that the US.

Originally Posted by selfdrive

In my opinion, it is better to choose a country (and type of visa) where your wife will be able to work too...

Thanks for the reply mate. Much appreciated. Well, the wife and I can both work. That's not the issue. The problem at hand is getting there, with a reasonably decent pay package, and hopefully not too late.

Originally Posted by adits

Hi Sourav,
1. The moment you mention H1/L1,..

Thanks for the reply mate. Much appreciated. You've hit the nail on the head! The wife sometimes gets emotional when she comes to know that Joe-Somebody from so-&-so services limited, has got an onsite opportunity. I have such a hard time consoling her that it's not the end of the world. But sometimes she just doesn't understand. Women, can't live with them, can't live without 'em :P. Well, we will be speaking with a few consultancies, hopefully over the weekend and hammer things out in the maximum possible detail and see what is the best possible scenario.

Originally Posted by carboy

Have you been outside India for short/long trips...

Hah! I wish! Would happily give me one good leg to get a chance to move onsite :P. Nah, haven't had a chance to move abroad. Ever. Hoping that winds of change would soon blow over our fortunes :P

Keep them replies coming fellas. Any more suggestions please do let us know. Thanks for checking this really long post again! You guys are awesome!

[carboy]

Originally Posted by sourav9385

Hah! I wish! Would happily give me one good leg to get a chance to move onsite :P. Nah, haven't had a chance to move abroad. Ever. Hoping that winds of change would soon blow over our fortunes :P

If so, then don't say stuff like 'I want to move to a cold place'. You may have no idea about cold (unless you have lived in very very cold places in India).

World over, good weather means 'hot'. In Hindi movies, when the heroine says 'Mausam kitna suhana hain' - typically its overcast conditions and everyone is wearing sweaters (i.e. may be early spring or autumn weather).

However, in most parts of the world, when they say glorious weather - it means a fabulous sunny day. People take their laptops to an open space when the sun comes out. People take holidays if it's sunny. I have gone and spent the whole day in a park just because the sun is out. That's the reason people have sun roofs in their car - they don't want to miss the sun even when they are driving - sun roofs are not made just for having your child peep out of it.

My wife's first overseas trip was to California & it was in May - early summer. Before leaving India, she was very upset because she was going to what was supposedly one of the warmer places in the US. The days she landed there, the first thing she did was dig out her sweater.

People dream about staying in warm places - everybody plans to make it big and retire to Hawaii - not many people make a plan to retire to Minnesota. Check out which is the state in the US with the maximum number of retirees - it's Florida - again one of the warmest places in the US.

Originally Posted by sourav9385

Thanks for the reply mate. Much appreciated. Well, the wife and I can both work. That's not the issue. The problem at hand is getting there, with a reasonably decent pay package, and hopefully not too late.

I think his point is that in many countries, if you go on an employment visa and your wife goes on a dependent visa, she isn't allowed to work. She has to search for a job where her employer is willing to apply for a work permit for her. And she can work only when that work permit is issued.

[sourav9385]

^^ Lol, I'm sure most people dream about retiring to a warm sandy beach in Hawaii.
But we are not among such people, for sure. We prefer colder climates. We really do. Snow outside, -10/-20 degrees or so, warm cup of cocoa/coffee and a nice long book to read. Ahh...bliss...

Driving down a winding coast road with the top down and the sun shining, coupled with 92 million miles of blue open skies is an appealing concept.
For sure. No doubts on that. But, meesa prefers to not get tanned in the coastal sun

And about the work permit thingy, five of our friends/acquaintances have moved to US/Canada with their spouses on dependent visa, and have successfully found employment in a max of 3 months. And they were not exactly Einstein material, if you know what I mean. So even if one of us makes it there, the other will surely be able to find employment. Even on a dependent visa. At least in US and Canada, it is perfectly do-able. And I am talking from personal, I-know-them-too-well experience with colleagues.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by sourav9385

But we are not among such people, for sure. We prefer colder climates. We really do. Snow outside, -10/-20 degrees or so, warm cup of cocoa/coffee and a nice long book to read. Ahh...bliss...

Have you been in such a weather? If not, wait till you experience it - that's why I asked first if you have been abroad.

Not saying everybody has the same preference, but there are very few people (even those who have moved from Bombay or Madras) who after a few years abroad don't wait for the summer. Summer is a huge event in most places.

[mohit]

Originally Posted by sourav9385

^^ Lol, I'm sure most people dream about retiring to a warm sandy beach in Hawaii.
But we are not among such people, for sure. We prefer colder climates. We really do. Snow outside, -10/-20 degrees or so, warm cup of cocoa/coffee and a nice long book to read. Ahh...bliss...

Driving down a winding coast road with the top down and the sun shining, coupled with 92 million miles of blue open skies is an appealing concept.
For sure. No doubts on that. But, meesa prefers to not get tanned in the coastal sun

And about the work permit thingy, five of our friends/acquaintances have moved to US/Canada with their spouses on dependent visa, and have successfully found employment in a max of 3 months. And they were not exactly Einstein material, if you know what I mean. So even if one of us makes it there, the other will surely be able to find employment. Even on a dependent visa. At least in US and Canada, it is perfectly do-able. And I am talking from personal, I-know-them-too-well experience with colleagues.

Winters are nice till the time you have to go to work. (Seen a few so I should know ). You can't sit at home with a coffee/cocoa and a book for 4 months!

You are correct about people finding jobs - needs a bit of patience and manipulation but you can get one in IT field much more easily as compared to any other field. I would've suggested Canadian immigration to you but the recent changes to the program are not very IT worker friendly. I'd say wait and watch as far as Canada is concerned.

BTW - avoid a Canadian work permit from an Indian services company as they'll never help you get immigration (They are scared that people will jump ship as soon as they get an immigrant status - I wonder why )

[VLOCT]

Originally Posted by sourav9385

Driving down a winding coast road with the top down and the sun shining, coupled with 92 million miles of blue open skies is an appealing concept.
For sure. No doubts on that. But, meesa prefers to not get tanned in the coastal sun

So you're saying you'd worry more about get tanned, rather than enjoy this..



In something like this..


Ok. The temp by the way was 18 C, or 65 F.

[selfdrive]

Originally Posted by sourav9385

Thanks for the reply mate. Much appreciated. Well, the wife and I can both work. That's not the issue. The problem at hand is getting there, with a reasonably decent pay package, and hopefully not too late.

No no, the issue is not whether you can or want to work. Before that the issue is whether you are allowed to work. In the US especially, many states do not allow people on dependent visas to work. This is why I asked you to specifically confirm that you are going on the appropriate visas.

Originally Posted by carboy

My wife's first overseas trip was to California & it was in May - early summer. Before leaving India, she was very upset because she was going to what was supposedly one of the warmer places in the US. The days she landed there, the first thing she did was dig out her sweater.

Aah, first trips! even my first trip was to CA and I found the main problem was the wind. And I thought that was cold till I spent a few freezing winters in UK and Europe. But to be fair, I think he has defined how cold in degrees, so he should be fine. In any case, we will find out when he puts up pics here on this thread bundled in 5 layers.

Originally Posted by sourav9385

And about the work permit thingy, five of our friends/acquaintances have moved to US/Canada with their spouses on dependent visa, and have successfully found employment in a max of 3 months.

Are you sure about the US? I have friends who have gone there on dependent visas who got absolutely frustrated having nothing to do. And there is only so much you can expect people to stay online for you, especially from such a time zone.

Originally Posted by mohit

Winters are nice till the time you have to go to work. (Seen a few so I should know ).

erm, it depends. I actually loved the winters there as I am a bit of a loner anyway. I didnt find it much of an issue travelling around, but I lived bang in the centre of town and had everything closeby. It will definitely be more difficult for someone living in the suburbs or away from reliable public transport etc.

Originally Posted by VLOCT

So you're saying you'd worry more about get tanned, rather than enjoy this..

Ok, now let me clarify. that looks nothing like a daily commute. I think you should google for public transport rush hour in the city you will move to, for a more realistic expectation!
good place for a vacation though