[alpha1]

Originally Posted by sukhoi30

There is a point to your argument. And I agree to an extent that if you have good performing vehicle then why can't you "perform" it. See, the problem here is that there are many other vehicles here that are being driven by morons in the same speed as your BMW M3. I have seen simple vehicles like Indica, Bolero, Trax and sometimes even nano being driven over 120 kmph. The brake response of such vehicles and the stability of these type of vehicles at such speeds are way different from high end BMW. That is what causes such accidents. Overspeeding on vehicles which cannot be controlled at such speeds. I am not even going into other parameters like tyre bursts, engine heat up etc. which are common side effects of over speeding.
Abroad, you have different speed lanes and then there are different speed limits at different stretches (and this is monitored and maintained scientifically). But obviously this can't be implemented here. So, the easy thing to do is set a blanket speed limit of 80 kmph which applies to all vehicles however impractical and useless it may sound.
Maybe, the auto companies should be asked to set speed limit of the vehicles according to their stability/control factor at the time of manufacturing iteself.

Actually I was being sarcastic, so I don't believe that just because an AMG can safely handle 200 kmph, it should be allowed to run beserk on a public road at that speed.

And the reason is what I have already mentioned as cause of accidents on e-way:

Originally Posted by alpha1

The no.1 cause is driver's overconfidence.
Overconfidence while over speeding.
Overconfidence on their vehicle's abilities at high speeds.
Overconfidence on their own ability at high speeds.

[EagleEye]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

Good roads also require good road manners, period.

Agree with you completely.

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

I will agree to higher speed limits provided, all road users on average can mantain that posted speed comfortably. What is my personal comfortable speed limit is immaterial here.

Completely disagree. There is a thing known as lane discipline. Under this system, the rightmost lane (in left-side driven countries) is the fast lane or the speed lane and the leftmost lane is the slow lane. I am sure people have at least heard of this before, but I reiterate this because under this system any car can drive at the speed he is comfortable with. On a three lane highway, most cars travelling at normal speeds (between 80-100) travel in the middle lane, and they move to the right lane to overtake a slower moving car in their lane. Cars travelling faster and closer to the maximum speed limit on that road (120 or 140 kmph) are always in the right lane, but they have to move to the middle lane if a faster car approaches from behind.
Finally the slower cars and trucks are in the leftmost lane.

Heavy vehicles are NOT ALLOWED in any lane other than the leftmost lane.

Originally Posted by alpha1

In fact, *sarcasm on* my BMW M3 can easily do 200 kmph pretty safely. I've driven 100 times without even a minor accident.
I don't know why I have to follow this wretched revised speed limit of 140 kmph proposed by pedestrian Indians for their equally pedestrian jalopies and lorries. Its these slow lorrywallas that are the cause of each and every accident which happens on the e-way!
We should have a specific speed limit for each type of vehicles.
M3 should get a speed limit of 200 kmph, trucks should be limited to 20 kmph.
*sarcasm off*

See, this is exactly what I was talking about when I cited F1 example.

See my explanation above, I have stayed abroad for 18 years of my life and the above described system works VERY WELL.

Originally Posted by sukhoi30

Abroad, you have different speed lanes and then there are different speed limits at different stretches (and this is monitored and maintained scientifically). But obviously this can't be implemented here. So, the easy thing to do is set a blanket speed limit of 80 kmph which applies to all vehicles however impractical and useless it may sound.

Yes, systems are easy to describe on paper but tough to implement especially in India where people are uneducated and uninformed and there is no real qualification required to acquire a driver's license.
However, I feel that saying "obviously this can't be implemented here" is a very pessimistic statement and defeats the motive of getting Indian roads and driving experiences to an internationally acceptable platform.
I'm sure it can happen, but this is what the government should be focusing on, and not on putting a speed limit of a measly 80 kmph on an excellent road like the Mumbai Pune e-way and then allocating resources to catching speeding vehicles.

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by EagleEye

Agree with you completely.



Completely disagree. There is a thing known as lane discipline. Under this system, the rightmost lane (in left-side driven countries) is the fast lane or the speed lane and the leftmost lane is the slow lane. I am sure people have at least heard of this before, but I reiterate this because under this system any car can drive at the speed he is comfortable with. On a three lane highway, most cars travelling at normal speeds (between 80-100) travel in the middle lane, and they move to the right lane to overtake a slower moving car in their lane. Cars travelling faster and closer to the maximum speed limit on that road (120 or 140 kmph) are always in the right lane, but they have to move to the middle lane if a faster car approaches from behind.
Finally the slower cars and trucks are in the leftmost lane.

Heavy vehicles are NOT ALLOWED in any lane other than the leftmost lane.

Expressway has a rated speed limit of 120kmph. So 140kmph is not even in the designed limits. It has maximum 3 lanes on each side, left most is marked for heavy/oversized vehicles , middle one for regular traffic and right one for overtaking, and not mantaining speed. This is universal across the world and no one stays in the right most lane speeding away.
This road is comparable to a US freeway, where in all lanes have one posted speed limit (between 60-70 mph).

[alpha1]

Originally Posted by EagleEye

under this system any car can drive at the speed he is comfortable with.

How does one ascertain the comfortably safe speed limit on a public road?
Most people are anyway grossly overconfident (and also "boastingly" egoistic - "you know I travel from Belapur to Hinjewadi in 1 hour daily ... blah blah").

Biologically our nervous system (and the peripherals like sight, sound, feel etc) has been evolved for our native maximum speeds - which is the running speed. Perhaps about 40 kmph. Anything above that and our system (=eyes, brain, nervous system, muscles) is not really capable. (The response time of our system is more than the rapidly changing inputs and output demands)
Unfortunately we've not been driving fast cars for the past million years - where slow people would've been selectively annihilated, and the fast would've survived changing the current gene pool.

So then why would someone allow even 80 kmph limit. Well it is assuming that people keep distance from each other (which means sufficient space to fool around while the vehicle+driver is not really under control). The impediments on the road are not instantaneous (so that there is sufficient time to react).

We are already on a gamble, increasing this further is just pushing the limits and trying our luck.

[EagleEye]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

Expressway has a rated speed limit of 120kmph. So 140kmph is not even in the designed limits. It has maximum 3 lanes on each side, left most is marked for heavy/oversized vehicles , middle one for regular traffic and right one for overtaking, and not mantaining speed.

Then we (the government) should be tackling the problem of oversized vehicles coming onto the middle and right lanes first. They should be caught and fined very heavily. If the rated speed of the expressway is 120 kmph, then that should be the maximum speed limit. Maximum speed limit does not mean everyone has to travel at 120. Those who are confident (more on this later) can drive at 120 safely (yes, it's possible).

Originally Posted by alpha1

How does one ascertain the comfortably safe speed limit on a public road?

Like I said above, the comfortable safe speed limit is the rated speed of the expressway, which is determined by the number of curves on the road and the radius of those curves on the road. There can be different speed limits on different sections of the road too, as is internationally accepted.

Now coming to confidence. It really depends on how good your skills as a 'safe driver' are, and what kind of car you are driving.
Skills of weaving in and out of traffic DOES NOT make one a safe driver. Neither does one's ability to break a signal "intelligently" (i.e. when no cops are watching). And no, not even your skills of being able to travel at high speeds on a narrow road.
If you are a safe driver you know lane discipline, you know you have to check the mirror if you're going to change your lane (and use that little thing called the indicator), you know about keeping under speed limits (I dream of an India where the speed limits are not kept ridiculously low - like 50 kmph on the Sea Link ), and you know several other things that 99.99% of India's drivers do not know.
Really, if one joins for driving classes and takes a test for DL in any developed country, that person will really come to know what driving actually means.

The kind of car that you're driving also is a major factor, and this is as true in India as it is anywhere else in the world. If you are driving a car which is not steady at 100 kmph (steering vibrates, body roll, thin wheels) then you cannot drive at 100 kmph whether you are in India or in the US.

Originally Posted by alpha1

Most people are anyway grossly overconfident (and also "boastingly" egoistic - "you know I travel from Belapur to Hinjewadi in 1 hour daily ... blah blah").

These are the people, I bet you, who are not safe drivers. They would be the ones weaving in and out and inconveniencing other drivers and making them apply sudden brakes etc.
A distance of 400 kms can be very safely traveled in 4 hours in the Middle East, and no one boasts about it.

Originally Posted by alpha1

Biologically our nervous system (and the peripherals like sight, sound, feel etc) has been evolved for our native maximum speeds - which is the running speed. Perhaps about 40 kmph. Anything above that and our system (=eyes, brain, nervous system, muscles) is not really capable. (The response time of our system is more than the rapidly changing inputs and output demands)
Unfortunately we've not been driving fast cars for the past million years - where slow people would've been selectively annihilated, and the fast would've survived changing the current gene pool.

Biologically speaking we're not meant to do a lot of things. Like, um.. let's see.... flying. Does that mean we've to stop flying? Close down the airline industry? No, we've found out a safe way to fly and the pilots are specially trained for the job to ensure that any unpredictable events are handled expertly (and trust me there are a lot of unpredictable events in flying).

Same for driving. The solution is that all drivers should be specifically trained to drive and be taught all the rules and etiquette. Every driver should know who's right-of-way it is on a roundabout or an intersection etc. in addition to the several things I have mentioned earlier. Which not a single driver knows in India.

Originally Posted by alpha1

So then why would someone allow even 80 kmph limit. Well it is assuming that people keep distance from each other (which means sufficient space to fool around while the vehicle+driver is not really under control). The impediments on the road are not instantaneous (so that there is sufficient time to react).

We are already on a gamble, increasing this further is just pushing the limits and trying our luck.

My question to you and anyone else advocating lowering speed limits on roads is this:

In the future of India do you still want cars chugging along at 40, 60 or 80 kmph? Do you not want to safely travel long distances in the shortest timeframe?

I for one would love it if the road network of India was so well developed and the drivers of India were so well trained that noone would think of traveling 300 or 400 kms as a whole day's worth of effort. Cities would be so wonderfully connected that one could visit a new city every weekend, and if one is going on a trip the journey would not be a pain to undertake. Wouldn't you love it if the time of getting yourself from point A to B was minimal so that you'd have more time to enjoy the destination?

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by EagleEye

Then we (the government) should be tackling the problem of oversized vehicles coming onto the middle and right lanes first. They should be caught and fined very heavily. If the rated speed of the expressway is 120 kmph, then that should be the maximum speed limit. Maximum speed limit does not mean everyone has to travel at 120. Those who are confident (more on this later) can drive at 120 safely (yes, it's possible).


I for one would love it if the road network of India was so well developed and the drivers of India were so well trained that noone would think of traveling 300 or 400 kms as a whole day's worth of effort. Cities would be so wonderfully connected that one could visit a new city every weekend, and if one is going on a trip the journey would not be a pain to undertake. Wouldn't you love it if the time of getting yourself from point A to B was minimal so that you'd have more time to enjoy the destination?

Maximum limit means maximum permitted speed, even if we wish otherwise. Please see how many people are fined or even jailed for speed limit voilations in US and Europe.

If one wants to travel quickly from A to B to enjoy the destination then he/she should fly or take the Rajdhani. If your journey is your destination then we must drive in India.
India's network is well developed enough to ensure Volvos can cover 1000km in 17 hours and trucks can cover 800kms in a day, this is what we need and want, for racing or speeding there is always the Budh circuit or the Kari speedway.

[EagleEye]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

Maximum limit means maximum permitted speed, even if we wish otherwise. Please see how many people are fined or even jailed for speed limit voilations in US and Europe.

If one wants to travel quickly from A to B to enjoy the destination then he/she should fly or take the Rajdhani. If your journey is your destination then we must drive in India.
India's network is well developed enough to ensure Volvos can cover 1000km in 17 hours and trucks can cover 800kms in a day, this is what we need and want, for racing or speeding there is always the Budh circuit or the Kari speedway.

I respect your point of view, but it's not what I think it should be like. You are talking about India as if it is as developed as it should be. According to you the roads need not be improved upon and 17 hours for 1000 kms is convenient.
Let us agree to disagree.

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by EagleEye

I respect your point of view, but it's not what I think it should be like. You are talking about India as if it is as developed as it should be. According to you the roads need not be improved upon and 17 hours for 1000 kms is convenient.
Let us agree to disagree.

No, I agree with you, even I too want to see more development, but treating motorways as autobahns is not correct, unless we have roads which are designed as autobahns. The expressway is just that, a fast motorway from Mumbai to Pune, treating it as a road where a fast car can drive to its limits is dangerous.

[EagleEye]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

No, I agree with you, even I too want to see more development,

Aren't you contradicting yourself?

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

but treating motorways as autobahns is not correct, unless we have roads which are designed as autobahns.

Let's take the expressway's case. I don't want to treat it as an autobahn with no speed limit. But I definitely want to be able to drive at a comfortable speed of 100 or even 120 on it legally. I believe the road is good for those speeds except for the ghat section.

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

The expressway is just that, a fast motorway from Mumbai to Pune, treating it as a road where a fast car can drive to its limits is dangerous.

Fast motorway? Do you call 80 kmph 'fast'? It is a big misconception that 80 kmph is 'fast' and anything over it is 'dangerous'. All over the world the accepted average speed is 100 kmph or 60 mph. As I said before, covering 400 kms in 4 hours was no big deal in the Middle East and this 'feat' was achieved consistently by all types of vehicles including goods trucks and 18 wheeler trailers. How is this possible if anything above 80 kmph is 'dangerous'?

One of our fellow bhpians has composed this beautiful article:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/street...ian-roads.html

If these kinds of idiotic acts can be prevented, then I'm sure the speed limits on roads like the expressway can be increased by the authorities. Like I have been trying to say before, these are the kinds of things the authorities should be focusing on and not blindly reducing the speed limits.

And who is saying that a fast car has to drive to its limits? What I'm saying is the speed limit of 80 kmph is incredulously low. India needs good roads and the point of having good roads is to travel at a comfortably fast speed of at least 100 kmph between any two cities.

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by EagleEye

Aren't you contradicting yourself?



Let's take the expressway's case. I don't want to treat it as an autobahn with no speed limit. But I definitely want to be able to drive at a comfortable speed of 100 or even 120 on it legally. I believe the road is good for those speeds except for the ghat section.



Fast motorway? Do you call 80 kmph 'fast'? It is a big misconception that 80 kmph is 'fast' and anything over it is 'dangerous'. All over the world the accepted average speed is 100 kmph or 60 mph. As I said before, covering 400 kms in 4 hours was no big deal in the Middle East and this 'feat' was achieved consistently by all types of vehicles including goods trucks and 18 wheeler trailers. How is this possible if anything above 80 kmph is 'dangerous'?

One of our fellow bhpians has composed this beautiful article:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/street...ian-roads.html

If these kinds of idiotic acts can be prevented, then I'm sure the speed limits on roads like the expressway can be increased by the authorities. Like I have been trying to say before, these are the kinds of things the authorities should be focusing on and not blindly reducing the speed limits.

And who is saying that a fast car has to drive to its limits? What I'm saying is the speed limit of 80 kmph is incredulously low. India needs good roads and the point of having good roads is to travel at a comfortably fast speed of at least 100 kmph between any two cities.

Legal speeds are decided by authorities. We have the means to raise a PIL or write to them to change speed limits if we feel so.

Average speed of 100kmph means mantaining your indicated speed of 140kmph (thumb rule), which is not legal in most places I know

Lets not talk about middle east, we know how many ex camel drivers drive hypercars with both legs folded and how they crash. They have better (straighter) roads then us, faster vehicles and lesser common sense.

Low or high is upto the govt to decide. The topic is speeding ticket on the expressway and we must look at that.
BTW the expressway opened with a speed limit of 100kmph if I remember correctly, but many crazy Indians speeding at 100kmph on concrete roads and older tyres there were accidents due to tyre bursts. Hence the speed was reduced to 80kmph.

If you read what I wrote, no where I have written dangerous to be above 80kmph or to that effect. If there is a rule which says speed limit of x kmph, then the govt is not wrong in fining people speeding above it, no matter how you or I personally feel about what the limit must be.

[alpha1]

Originally Posted by EagleEye

Then we (the government) should be tackling the problem of oversized vehicles coming onto the middle and right lanes first. They should be caught and fined very heavily.

Now coming to confidence. It really depends on how good your skills as a 'safe driver' are, and what kind of car you are driving.
Skills of weaving in and out of traffic DOES NOT make one a safe driver. Neither does one's ability to break a signal "intelligently" (i.e. when no cops are watching). And no, not even your skills of being able to travel at high speeds on a narrow road.

If you are a safe driver you know lane discipline, you know you have to check the mirror if you're going to change your lane (and use that little thing called the indicator), you know about keeping under speed limits (I dream of an India where the speed limits are not kept ridiculously low - like 50 kmph on the Sea Link ), and you know several other things that 99.99% of India's drivers do not know.

Really, if one joins for driving classes and takes a test for DL in any developed country, that person will really come to know what driving actually means.

These are the people, I bet you, who are not safe drivers. They would be the ones weaving in and out and inconveniencing other drivers and making them apply sudden brakes etc.
A distance of 400 kms can be very safely traveled in 4 hours in the Middle East, and no one boasts about it.

Agreed.
Let us first tackle this, and then we can think of increasing the speed limit.

Biologically speaking we're not meant to do a lot of things. Like, um.. let's see.... flying. Does that mean we've to stop flying? Close down the airline industry? No, we've found out a safe way to fly and the pilots are specially trained for the job to ensure that any unpredictable events are handled expertly (and trust me there are a lot of unpredictable events in flying).

Of course I need not tell you about the stringency and the amount of training that goes in for flying. Also in a commercial airliner you are not allowed to land and takeoff unless you have certain stipulated flying hours as a co-pilot.

If we were to start flying, the way we drive cars - I don't need to tell you what would happen.

My question to you and anyone else advocating lowering speed limits on roads is this:

In the future of India do you still want cars chugging along at 40, 60 or 80 kmph? Do you not want to safely travel long distances in the shortest timeframe?

I did mention that though the human body is not capable of dealing with much faster speeds, if sufficient distance and time is permitted for "fooling around, while not being in control" - we can even travel at supersonic speeds.

(Exactly what we do in air travel - huge distances between airplanes, emergency landing procedure to clear out from populated areas, well trained pilots etc)

Let us make that happen first, then we should start thinking about raising the speed limits.

[Gautam Dhaliwal]

Went to Pune and back on the weekend. I remembered that one had to take lesser than 40 minutes for some reason. Going to Pune, managed 40 minutes with a forced break.
Coming back, realized it may be difficult to keep the time above 40 mins (which is what i thought was the threshold) due to the time (Sunday morning at 8 - practically no traffic) and the fact that its downhill on the ghats so lesser bottlenecks.
So took a receipt till lonavala at the toll near pune and paid again near mumbai. Problem solved! Spent 33 rupees more for perhaps saving 15 minutes and headache for monitoring the time rather than focusing on safe driving. Seems fair.