[amitoj]

Originally Posted by MX6

That's where my earlier comments comes in. Right lane is not for anyone to hog. Use it only to overtake. Hanging to 80 kmph on right lane stating the speed limit is 80 doesn't mean one is correct. In USA if you try that gimmick, you'd get fined for holding up traffic.

Originally Posted by carboy

Not in my experience in the USA.

I know this is an old discussion (relatively) but couldnt help quoting it because of a recent event:

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...a-65-zone?lite

A woman got ticketed for traveling in the passing lane, even though she was doing 2 below the limit!

Many highways clearly state that left lane is not for traveling.

[Rudra Sen]

Originally Posted by carboy

Where did I say people don't speed? What I am asking is why should someone who doesn't support intrusive monitoring be assumed to be supporting speeding?

No, you didn't say that and neither did I.

I mentioned about moral responsibility which I think is grossly missing amongst us. Otherwise we wouldn't have seen so many accidents on that stretch.

That said, you and me are going out of topic here. We can however carry this discussion outside the forum if you wish.

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by carboy

Why do you think I 'want' (I don't know why the want is in quotes, but I will keep it as is) the Government to monitor anyone at all?



It's quite a leap to assume that someone who doesn't support intrusive monitoring is speeding or foregoing his moral responsibilities.

If you dont support govt monitoring, yet want the no of accidents to reduce. How do we achieve it? All over the world accidents have been reduced by monitoring and active policing. If there is a new way which you think accidents can be reduced without monitoring, please share it with us.

If the govt (the ultimate governing body and authority) will not monitor the state of roads and traffic, who else should? Do you suggest self policing/monitoring, where in everyone is mature enough to drive carefully? Or a free for all, leading to law and order problem or chaos...

[carboy]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

If you dont support govt monitoring, yet want the no of accidents to reduce. How do we achieve it? All over the world accidents have been reduced by monitoring and active policing. If there is a new way which you think accidents can be reduced without monitoring, please share it with us.

If the govt (the ultimate governing body and authority) will not monitor the state of roads and traffic, who else should? Do you suggest self policing/monitoring, where in everyone is mature enough to drive carefully? Or a free for all, leading to law and order problem or chaos...

This kind of argument is known as false dichotomy or false dilemma.

You are asking me to place a unremovable gps tracker in my car to reduce accidents. Next you will ask me to wear a gps tracker on my legs to help reduce crime or whatever is your 'cause du jour'.

Not accepting these rather silly suggestions doesn't mean I advocate self policing or a free for all.

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by carboy

This kind of argument is known as false dichotomy or false dilemma.

You are asking me to place a unremovable gps tracker in my car to reduce accidents. Next you will ask me to wear a gps tracker on my legs to help reduce crime or whatever is your 'cause du jour'.

Not accepting these rather silly suggestions doesn't mean I advocate self policing or a free for all.

No one is asking you to accept or not accept anything. Instead of trying to be sarcastically funny, it would be better if you had something useful to contribute instead of using the Indian way of saying no. And stop hyping up with statements like 'next I will ask you to wear a gps tracker on your leg'

I was merely offering new thoughts to tackle an old menace of people like you who want all the freedom and rights but no responsibility. Enough said.

[Hayek]

The problem here is that people assume that only those who drive too fast cause problems. Driving too slow on an expressway is as big or a bigger problem than driving too fast. The Bombay Poona expressway was originally rated for a speed of 120 kph. In typical Indian cop style, the speed limit was thereafter reduced for no good reason to 80 kph. Personally, I think the speed limit should be raised back to 120 or at the very least to 110 kph. Further, a MINIMUM speed limit of 80 kph should also be posted. If all vehicles travel in a narrow band between 80 and 110, the highway would be a lot safer. And those violating either bound should be fined heavily. The biggest source of danger of the highway is overloaded and underpowered trucks trying to overtake each other at 30 or 40 kph and hogging all three lanes while doing that. As the highway signs in Scotland say, frustration costs lives.

EDIT: I was just going through the beginning of this thread and saw how a Distinguished BHPian mentioned driving at 150 kph+ regularly on the expressway in a "safe car". It was quite poignant (if you know what I mean). Lets be clear, no car is safe on Indian roads at 150 kph+. For that matter, even in most developed countries (other than Germany), the highest speed limits are in the range of 70-75 mph or 112 - 120 kph. Driving at 150+ would cause you to lose your license almost anywhere. So while I do agree that our limits are ridiculously low, we must also recognise the danger that excessive speed causes.

That is precisely the problem with lots of our laws - we set the threshold for being law abiding at a level which leads to contempt for the law (since almost no one has the patience to comply fully) - and then fail to distinguish between misdemeanours and murder.

[honeybee]

Originally Posted by Hayek

In typical Indian cop style, the speed limit was thereafter reduced for no good reason to 80 kph.

I think that was to respond to the typical Indian style of "following" rules: push them to the limit of breaking them. Today with the 80kmph speed limit, you have people cruising in three-digit speeds, and it's become almost customary that if you are driving on the e-way you must be near 100kmph. Anything less than that is considered 'slow'. So if the upper limit were increased to 120kmph, people would then start pushing their cars beyond the limits of the speeds.

I agree with the general train of thought in your post, however what needs serious attention is not change in the rules, but an effective implementation of the same. Even with the existing speed limits, people must realize that the cops are serious about enforcing the rules. Once a basic sense of discipline can be built into the motorists, only then we could think of relaxing the limits.

I sometimes wonder what exactly do the traffic cops do. I mean other than collecting bribes. I have personally never seen any cops on the e-way with speed guns, never seen them checking the toll receipts for the time taken by motorists, never seen them checking lane discipline, never seen them checking the black and white smoke (people would think it's some kind of a ritual like the Vatican that your vehicle must emit some visual signs of being alive and kicking, or being 'vibrant' and sputtering if you prefer), never seen them pull up motorists (including two-wheelers) busy talking on mobile phones, never seen them noticing two-wheelers, three wheelers, four wheelers and even six wheelers driving on the wrong side of the road in broad daylight. They can't even properly regulate a traffic junction (Ranjanoli naka near Kalyan/Bhiwandi, which I have the misfortune to travel through every day is a classic example. At any point of time, you should notice about ten to fifteen traffic violations and at least five to six cops who are dutifully ignoring them).

So the first question we need to ask is: What are the traffic cops doing with the laws they have??

[carboy]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

No one is asking you to accept or not accept anything. Instead of trying to be sarcastically funny, it would be better if you had something useful to contribute instead of using the Indian way of saying no.

Squashing bad ideas is contribution enough.

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

I was merely offering new thoughts to tackle an old menace of people like you who want all the freedom and rights but no responsibility. Enough said.

Your idea of responsibility is very strange - which is why I feel you will next move on to asking people to have gps trackers on their legs to tackle the old menace of crime. People who disagree will be deemed irresponsible.

[honeybee]

Dear friends (apachelongbow and carboy), let's not get carried away by the differences in perception and thoughts. Please put an end to this as responsible and mature members that you both must be, and get back to the point of discussion, instead of indulging in criticism directed at someone personally.

[braindead]

I have been using the E-way almost every week for quite a few years and i try to keep a cruising speed of 120.
Have been fined twice for speeding. The police informed me that they don't fine anyone doing bellow 100 kph even if the official limit is 80. I know this to be true as i have passed more than 5 speed guns while doing 90~100. I just slow down to 90 when i see a white shirt and a tripod in the bushes.

However there seems to be a new way to fine people: If you cover the distance between the two toll booths in less than 30 minutes, (average speed of 100 kph) they will fine you at the toll. Funny thing is that it wont work if you exit at Lonavala or Khopoli. Also, wont work if you decide to fuel up and have a snack at the food mall. Then you can probably do 120. Lol.

They need to catch 'bad' drivers rather than quick drivers.

A few things i have learnt to watch out for:
1. Cheap SUVs or Jeeps with big stickers on the rear door.
2 Buses. All of them.
3. Heavily loaded trucks while going uphill.
4. Anyone stupid enough to put on their hazard warning in tunnels and then weave all over the place.
5. Anyone overtaking in the left lane even if the right lane is free.

And none of these people may be speeding. Catching drivers crossing the speed limit is easy. Catching all the above types of drivers is not.
So, what to do?

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by braindead

They need to catch 'bad' drivers rather than quick drivers.

And none of these people may be speeding. Catching drivers crossing the speed limit is easy. Catching all the above types of drivers is not.
So, what to do?

Spot on.

I have a suggestion. Feel free to argue for and against please

What if at the entrance point of the expressway (just before the toll booths for example), there is a mandatory checking for the following
1) Alchol test
2) Car papers and licence checks
3) All lights working
4) No overloading of vehicles
5) Tyre condition and vehicle condition

These checks may hardly add 10-15 mins extra to the journey time, but with proper monitoring we can assure that badly mantained vehicles, overloaded vehicles and dangerous drivers are not allowed to enter the expressway.

[genesis]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

Spot on.

I have a suggestion. Feel free to argue for and against please

What if at the entrance point of the expressway (just before the toll booths for example), there is a mandatory checking for the following
1) Alchol test
2) Car papers and licence checks
3) All lights working
4) No overloading of vehicles
5) Tyre condition and vehicle condition

These checks may hardly add 10-15 mins extra to the journey time, but with proper monitoring we can assure that badly mantained vehicles, overloaded vehicles and dangerous drivers are not allowed to enter the expressway.

Can you let us know if such a system or something similar exists anywhere in the world (other than scrutinies at rallies?)

In my opinion you would have lines of cars lined up overnight just like trucks at octroi checkposts and people would take the train.

That would cause less traffic on the expressway, and hopefully less accidents and then we would close this thread since it is not going anywhere.

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by genesis

Can you let us know if such a system or something similar exists anywhere in the world (other than scrutinies at rallies?)

In my opinion you would have lines of cars lined up overnight just like trucks at octroi checkposts and people would take the train.

That would cause less traffic on the expressway, and hopefully less accidents and then we would close this thread since it is not going anywhere.

All over the world, the licencing system is strict, insurance is brutal and activities like drunk driving, speeding, rash driving or faulty vehicles gurantee you jail time and lot of monentary loss. Hence highways or toll roads neednot be monitored at entry and exit.
However they have enough mobile police patrolling, helicopter ambulances and the works to take care of random accidents.


Being India, everything is a big corrupt joke, so only way to check against accidents is to monitor at access points. Yes you are right about vehicle queues at expressway entrances, maybe there could be random checks instead with steep fines if caught.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

Being India, everything is a big corrupt joke, so only way to check against accidents is to monitor at access points. Yes you are right about vehicle queues at expressway entrances, maybe there could be random checks instead with steep fines if caught.

Why do you feel this will not be one more point of corruption? i.e. vehicles caught at expressway will pay bribes instead of steep fines.

[parsh]

I think many of us have had experience of the overseas mechanisms and mannerisms. Also we are all a thoughtful community to take word for word and believe that we discuss here to help find proper viable solutions and induce good thought processes and practices amongst ourselves and others. I like quite a few perspectives of knowledgeable and experienced ones. ACM, Rudra sirs experiences and learning as mentioned earlier are quite a few things to learn from.

While not all of us can go out there on road and put in effect corrective measures, we can atleast think aloud about what better measures can be put and which measures will bring what effectiveness. To that effect, we are not just procrastinating here neither are we saying that we want somebody to take charge while we sit around coolly doing blah blah. There is limit to what we can do afterall.

What we can lay down here are:
-what are the good measures, their pros and cons
-who could be responsible body in governing and implementing the same and so how to get the better thoughts across to the body
-what are cost implications to end users like most of us. We all pay taxes and most of the infrastructure should be covered by the same if the funds are not gulped by the alligators all around. Even if a better infrastructure is coming and it implies certain incremental costs for certain measures, be ready to bear them
-not expect the measures be functional from Day 0 and idealistic 100% effective anytime unless it really happens through people’s discipline
-spread awareness about following good habits and respect to all on the streets, to laws and regulations

This thread particularly is about the Speed Ticketing on Mumbai Pune Expressway and maybe it can become an eye opener on what is its effectiveness and how it can be bettered.

It is not going to happen suddenly given the infrastructure, attitude of people getting it in place as well as using it. Its long highway so let the discussions go on and not treat them as rantings in anyway. So be positive and take things positively instead of lambasting each other.

I remember, abroad, when you are speeding, irrespective of you being caught while speeding or at the end of the highway, you will end up getting a ticket at your doorstep with a snap of your car and plate clearly visible to levy that fine upon you and it is also directly linked to the unique social security number they have there so that you cannot escape it.

Hope with efforts Aadhar will really become Aadhar to all such infrastructure needs too.

Oh, pardon me, hope I am not ranting...!