[nilanjanray]

I understand that there are many are TG fans here. However, this particular episode was in bad taste. Someone comes and makes idiotic attempts at humour, and we suck up to him? Because he is an automotive celebrity? Well, I don't care what some oaf speaks or does about others, but when he does it about my country or someone close to me, he crosses a line.

Surprised to see people so stuck up with celebrity worship. So many people defending Clarkson/BBC and giving excuses "he is like this only" or "look he said something good about India" or "it is just entertainment". Too afraid to call a spade a spade? Why is it that I see a pattern among the TG episode supporters - either too young/immature or NRIs?

I just saw a pathetic old man with a crass sense of humour trying hard to portray the stereotypical image of India. The images that make the developed world feel good - what those folks want to believe - what they comfort themselves with as they see the balance of power shifting and correcting in the world. But seems too many folks are too excited that TG has come to India and to see their heroes prancing around our country to actually pay attention to what rubbish they are actually spouting.

It is not ok for an outsider to come and do it. Never works that way. Never has.

P.S.: Read about media psy-ops as state strategy and analyze what is being said/written about China and India in all major Western publications - from Economist to the BBC. Ever wonder why all compliments for India are 'balanced' by highlighting the negatives under the guise of fairness or balanced view?

[D33-PAC]

Just so you know, the show is intended to be comical. Someone is at the receiving end of Clarkson's jokes every show regardless of the setting. Some nation is at the end of these jokes every time.
In fact,now that you mentioned it, I don't think there is a show where Clarkson hasn't said anything negative of any nation.





I think as a patriot your view of the show is obviously more distorted.


I don't think they're funny either. Brit humor IMHO isn't humorous at all. And complaining about them here on T-BHP is really no good lol, wrong place to express man. TG suck-ups dwell here in hordes.

On an other note, I agree people suck up too much to them, celebrity worship is nasty. I have tried to ask people on T-BHP once why they receive demigod status, I was flamed and burned in a kiln !

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by nilanjanray

Surprised to see people so stuck up with celebrity worship. So many people defending Clarkson/BBC and giving excuses "he is like this only" or "look he said something good about India" or "it is just entertainment". Too afraid to call a spade a spade? Why is it that I see a pattern among the TG episode supporters - either too young/immature or NRIs?

I'm afraid that's exactly what he does. Call a spade, a spade. And people aren't too comfortable with that. When negatives come out, people want to shy away and pretend that life is all rosy.

If you watched the episode, you'd realize that he showed India, in a light that not too many other shows would. They gave the world an insight of what life is like in India. And that's EXACTLY how it is. Along with the rich and so-called 'high-class', a large part of the population does belong to the middle-class.

Problem is, there are people who can't deal with it. They can't handle the truth.

Face it. India is a dirty place. India is poor. It's a fact. And the faster we learn to deal with it, the faster we will correct ourselves.

Read about media psy-ops as state strategy and analyze what is being said/written about China and India in all major Western publications - from Economist to the BBC. Ever wonder why all compliments for India are 'balanced' by highlighting the negatives under the guise of fairness or balanced view?

So what you're saying is that only 'positives' and 'good things' have to be discussed and portrayed? Let me tell you something. Neither are they promoters of tourism for India, nor are they travel-agencies. You want a rosy picture? Watch the 'Incredible India' advert on loop.

EDIT: P.S. I'm a fan of TG and Clarkson. I don't consider him some demi-God. He is definitely not the best journalist out there. His views are very biased. He is judgmental. But he speaks his mind, and that's something I appreciate. He has proved to be a good journalist and a presenter over his 25-year career. Credit where credit is due, man.

[nilanjanray]

Originally Posted by D33-PAC

Just so you know, the show is intended to be comical. Someone is at the receiving end of Clarkson's jokes every show regardless of the setting. Some nation is at the end of these jokes every time.
In fact,now that you mentioned it, I don't think there is a show where Clarkson hasn't said anything negative of any nation.

I think as a patriot your view of the show is obviously more distorted.

I don't think they're funny either. Brit humor IMHO isn't humorous at all. And complaining about them here on T-BHP is really no good lol, wrong place to express man. TG suck-ups dwell here in hordes.

I know what the show is intended to be. But as I mentioned, I don't care what he says about other countries or cultures. But I do when he talks about us.

Am I supposed to take off my patriot hat just because it is Mr. Jeremy Clarkson?

It is not about Brit humour - it is about crassness and shallow stereotypes and typical associations (e.g. India = slum).

[prkiran]

"It was fine when Clarkson was mocking anyone else, but he is not supposed to mock me or my country"

Is it just me or isn't this pure hypocrisy? From what I saw in the show, there was little or no made-up remarks about India and whatever that was showed in the programme was actually true. While we are so hell bent in showcasing to foreigners an image of what we want to be, rather than what we are, a bit of reality check once in a while doesn't hurt.

P.S. I am just a fan of the show and no, Clarkson is not God.

[shamik.bose]

Originally Posted by nilanjanray

I know what the show is intended to be. But as I mentioned, I don't care what he says about other countries or cultures. But I do when he talks about us.

Am I supposed to take off my patriot hat just because it is Mr. Jeremy Clarkson?

It is not about Brit humour - it is about crassness and shallow stereotypes and typical associations (e.g. India = slum).

Just to make a point here, a huge percentage of India's population stays in slums without proper sanitation facilities. While we might be happily typing away at our keyboards, some kid somewhere in the country's many slums is waking up his mother or father because he's too afraid to go out in the dark and take a leak beside a dark wall.

I agree sometimes Mr. Clarkson goes overboard, and his views about cars should always be taken with a pinch of salt. In case of his political rants and the like however, they address stereotypes which are mostly true. Our country has a scary road network, our country isn't the cleanest in the world. While he pointed all this out, he also mentioned that Shimla was as beautiful as Switzerland, only warmer and more comfortable.

I have just one complaint about the entire episode and that was regarding the wastage of food in the dabbawala section. Irrespective of how developed a country is, you can't just throw away food.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by nilanjanray

But I do when he talks about us.

Pardon my interuption.

But what did they tell, that makes you think its an insult to India? I am not attacking your POV, I'm trying to figure out what exactly they told that has affected you so much.

Originally Posted by nilanjanray

It is not about Brit humour - it is about crassness and shallow stereotypes and typical associations (e.g. India = slum).

Where do they potray India as slum?

[nilanjanray]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

Problem is, there are people who can't deal with it. They can't handle the truth.

Face it. India is a dirty place. India is poor. It's a fact. And the faster we learn to deal with it, the faster we will correct ourselves.

No, problem is when people portray shallow impressions about India that reinforce typical Western thinking about India. And people suffering from celebrity halo effect having excuses for crass comments and behaviour that wouldn't otherwise be accepted from a visitor.

We see the bright sides and the dark sides of India every day...and we understand the nuances. We don't need an outsider visiting India to selectively point out certain things and do stupid acts or make crass jokes to stir up the waters and sell his show.

India = slums, lack of sanitation, bollywood, chaos, pockets of efficiency in the middle of the chaos (dabbawallas) - these are hackneyed associations that have been doing the rounds for quite sometime now. Thing is, if there are 5 good things about India and 5 bad things, and one needs to select just 5 out of 10, too many Western media sources choose to portray the bad things disproportionately. Why? Because it is easier, convenient and sometimes mandated to conform to the stereotypical associations.

Anyway, this is an automotive forum (and not a geopolitical one), and I have finished my ranting. Out of here for more productive use of my time :-)

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by nilanjanray

No, problem is when people portray shallow impressions about India that reinforce typical Western thinking about India. And people suffering from halo effect having excuses for crass comments and behaviour.

We see the bright sides and the dark sides of India every day...and we understand the nuances. We don't need an outsider to selectively point out certain things and do stupid acts or make crass jokes to stir up the waters and sell his show.

India = slums, lack of sanitation, bollywood, chaos, pockets of efficiency in the middle of the chaos (dabbawallas) - these are hackneyed associations that have been doing the rounds for quite sometime now.

Let's put aside patriotism and think, for a second, what he has said and done.

He spoke about how beautiful the Himalayan mountain-range is, and compared it to Switzerland. They spoke about the efficiency of the dabbawallas, despite the chaos. They even spoke about how India has arrived in the World of economy and growth. These are valid points, and they had truth in them. Just like how there is truth in the fact that India isn't very clean. That India has a prominent rich-poor divide.

What's wrong in these things?

And I'm not sure of when he ever mentioned 'slums' anywhere.

And Hackneyed? Isn't that all true? Stereotypes are often true, aren't they?

For what I've understood, your biggest problem is that they came to our country and raised these issues. And your argument is, "who are they to come to our land and speak of us like that?"

There is word for that. It's called 'denial'.

EDIT: From your posts above, you seem to be targeting the 'young' and the 'impressionable'. Not to mention the 'immature'. Probably because they are young? I hope you realize that at some stage, you were young too, and probably just as impressionable as well. I think its wrong that you're doing that. Just because there are fans of TG around, it doesn't mean you can label them 'impressionable'

I'm in no way supporting TG or Clarkson. I'm looking at both sides of the coin. And while you're taking the moral high ground, I'm looking at it from a different perspective. Yes, India has been ridiculed. Just like several other Third World countries. So are we going to go on a bashing spree and demand apologies for some facts that have been aired on the TV for the World to see? Or are we going to take a cue from that and aim at improving conditions instead?

At the end of the day, it's criticism. And if there is one thing I've learnt over the years, people hate taking criticism.

[Shivank]

Originally Posted by nilanjanray

Surprised to see people so stuck up with celebrity worship. So many people defending Clarkson/BBC and giving excuses "he is like this only" or "look he said something good about India" or "it is just entertainment". Too afraid to call a spade a spade? Why is it that I see a pattern among the TG episode supporters - either too young/immature or NRIs?

I have watched the show for almost 10-12 times now. And on each occasion, the audience with me was different. Yes, I admit that I am stuck up with Clarkson worship and follow Top Gear religiously, but none of the other guys with who I shared and watched this special have the same regards for Clarkson or TG. And let me tell you one more thing, many of them watched it only because of the 'India' in it. Otherwise, nobody cares to watch a car show no matter how entertaining it is!

After reading all that crap that newspapers had to say about Jeremy, almost all of them thought the media is overly exaggerating the issue. Some even asked if that particular 'offensive/racist' part had been removed from the film.

Nobody felt that the crew was offensive or racist at any point in the entire film. That's almost 20 of the non-topgear-fanboys I am quoting here. I swear! So, I don't think it's plain fanboyism or immature of me to support Clarkson on this.

And about the bold, I am sorry but that's a vague generalization on the subject! You are trying to say that everyone who's advocating TG or Clarkson here is either immature (young guys, mainly!) or NRI, and is simply twaddling on the topic! And those who are not are old/sensible/matured and pukka deshpremi guys!

EDIT: I would also like to know more about these (below) instances from the film. I am dead tired finding these things now...

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Pardon my interuption.

But what did they tell, that makes you think its an insult to India? I am not attacking your POV, I'm trying to figure out what exactly they told that has affected you so much.

Where do they potray India as slum?

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by nilanjanray

Why is it that I see a pattern among the TG episode supporters - either too young/immature or NRIs?

Originally Posted by nilanjanray

It is not about Brit humour - it is about crassness and shallow stereotypes and typical associations (e.g. India = slum).

Umm, two posts by the same person.

You were saying something about Stereotyping?

When does it become okay when we (read, you, in this context) stereotype, and not-okay when someone else does it?

And at least the stereotypes associated with India that were mentioned, were true to great extents. But the stereotype that you've created regarding TG fans is not even remotely true.

EDIT: @ Nilanjanray: I'm assuming that you haven't actually watched the show, and your comments are based on others' comments and news clippings. I sincerely suggest you watch the show, and come back to this thread and tell us if you 'truly' found anything offensive. It's unfortunate that the BBC is asked to apologize for TG's remarks. It's not like they were talking nonsense. A lot of it had truth. Besides, the people who find racism and such remarks offensive HONESTLY have nothing better to do. And those who propagate it are just following all the other rats off the cliff, where the Pied Piper plays his tunes.

It's unfortunate that even the 'informed' have perceptions. I know that you are a well informed individual, and I don't want informed individuals to make such strong and harsh statements even before actually understanding the purpose of this show. It's a 'show' for God's sake. And why is it that we Indians always have to take this moral high-ground all the time? First, it's the police with the stupid 11:30 deadline rule. And then we have the morally-correct doing the rounds, and telling the people of the country as to what to do and how to do what. All this, instead of actually focusing on the real problem at hand. Like poverty, hunger, sanitation, etc.

[BoneCollector]

Well,it seems BBC and Mr Clarkson have got a notice from Indian High Comission.(as per Times Now).The row could escalate to diplomatic levels if BBC doesn't respond.Lets see where this heads to.

[mayankk]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

Let's put aside patriotism and think, for a second, what he has said and done.

He spoke about how beautiful the Himalayan mountain-range is, and compared it to Switzerland. They spoke about the efficiency of the dabbawallas, despite the chaos. They even spoke about how India has arrived in the World of economy and growth. These are valid points, and they had truth in them. Just like how there is truth in the fact that India isn't very clean. That India has a prominent rich-poor divide.

What's wrong in these things?

And I'm not sure of when he ever mentioned 'slums' anywhere.

And Hackneyed? Isn't that all true? Stereotypes are often true, aren't they?

For what I've understood, your biggest problem is that they came to our country and raised these issues. And your argument is, "who are they to come to our land and speak of us like that?"

There is word for that. It's called 'denial'.

EDIT: From your posts above, you seem to be targeting the 'young' and the 'impressionable'. Not to mention the 'immature'. Probably because they are young? I hope you realize that at some stage, you were young too, and probably just as impressionable as well. I think its wrong that you're doing that. Just because there are fans of TG around, it doesn't mean you can label them 'impressionable'

I'm in no way supporting TG or Clarkson. I'm looking at both sides of the coin. And while you're taking the moral high ground, I'm looking at it from a different perspective. Yes, India has been ridiculed. Just like several other Third World countries. So are we going to go on a bashing spree and demand apologies for some facts that have been aired on the TV for the World to see? Or are we going to take a cue from that and aim at improving conditions instead?

At the end of the day, it's criticism. And if there is one thing I've learnt over the years, people hate taking criticism.

well put.
Although it is a a repetitive point, but still has to made.
Change the setting, and every controversy () TG generates can warrant the same statement.
I am a huge of fan of JC and TG.
It is not that they can do no wrong.
For eg, if they went out tomorrow and clubbed a bay seal, I would mind.
But, my sensibilities are not so shaky to be stirred by supposedly offensive(out of smilies) statements by a television presenter.

[PAVAN KADAM]

Guys if this was the case, We guys must Demand an APOLOGY from each and every Politician in the country for literally screwing up our Country in front of the whole world.

Top Gear is for Fun and Entertainment.

CWG / 2G scam are the biggest SCAMS/ offence than what JC did.

J.C will apologise, but will Kalmadi / Kani / Chidambaram ever utter a word saying sorry , Are they ever apologetic..? None of us will hear a "S" of the word Sorry from them.

The Govt., still feeds and spend crores to keep Kasab alive making mockery of all those who lost life saving the citizens of the country, is the govt apologetic, have they acted and offered an Apology..? NO

Taking offensive to a simple Fun program on BBC-Entertainment is pure stupidity.

1) They loved and praised the Mumbai Dabbawallah system of working, and ridiculed themselves for being Pathetic at that.

2) They found the business culture of India so enterprising and ridiculed Britian for being sleepy when the whole of India is busy doing business at every corner of the country.

3) They infact loved the ELITE Delhi crowd for having got those Super Exotic cars for their dinner meet

4) The Himalayas were praised to the core.

5) They even travelled in an ordinary sleeper class to provide us with entertainment

6) Endured long and dangerous drive around the toughest highways only to provide us with entertainment.

I feel we need to Grow up and appreciate humour ,entertainment which Top Gear is all about.

Times Of India have given a fair verdict to this Fiasco

[csentil]

I've not had a chance to watch that particular show but I've watched a lot of Top Gear over the years since they were lets say Spring Chicken. Yes, Jeremy has the knack to rub people on the wrong side many times. So no surprises here.

The same Jeremy was forced to apologize when he commented about wanting to execute the British Civil Servants. Well even in his own country he was asked to apologize for something he said. Don't care a damn if he does or does not!

What was funny was asking the British PM to apologize. For what? Its not as if the British Army took a leak on some dead terrorists in India.

What worried me more was the British press news about the Jarawa tribes in Andaman being forced to dance for the tourists by some cops. Now surely can we ask the British press to apologize for uncovering such a sad truth!

Someone said majority of India lives in slums. Sorry, majority of India lives in its villages, they might be poor and work hard for a living but they don't live in slums.

I don't need to wear my Patriotism on my sleeve to prove it. Some folks like to do that. I respect their opinion as long as they respect mine.