[infinitewheel]

Isn't the turning radius a problem in Bonnie? How do you manage it in city traffic? Has any owner found it difficult in taking a turn?

[mobike008]

Originally Posted by infinitewheel

Isn't the turning radius a problem in Bonnie? How do you manage it in city traffic? Has any owner found it difficult in taking a turn?

I dont find the turning radius a problem at all (whilst in motion) but, while turning the bike during standstill OR moving away from standstill is when you feel the radius is slightly longer than anticipated

[dustom_99]

Originally Posted by basuroy

Those are crank numbers not rear wheel , a dyno always measures crank numbers as per rear wheel. Since there is no way(unless one strips the engine from the transmission) one can measure the figures directly from the crank , it is measured at rear wheel with adjusment for losses hence the graph highlighting -"corrected rear wheel". 40 pound of torque wont get a 280kg bike moving from standstill , torque is a unitless quantity that can be multiplied by gearing sacrificing rpm in the process. Harley iron first gear ratio is around 10(approx figure , might be 9.5) which means the the rear wheel torque in first gear will be torque(at crank) * 10 while rpm(crank) will be divided by 10 . Once you gain momentum , you can sacrifice rotational force(torque is rotational force) for more rpm because more rpm means your wheel rotates faster means you cover more distance in a given time. And every single motor company in world offer only crank figures upfront , it can be either measured at rear wheel or directly from crank during testing/R&D. Normally it is as measured at rear wheel.

A stock sportster 883 cc motor transmits 35bhp of power at rear wheel after losses , this is as per certain owners from a forum I visit regularly. They also claim a sportster motor depending on head , intake , exhaust and tuning can generate 60-80bhp at rear wheel though these are normally drag spec bikes purely built for straight line racing and come at the expense of very short engine life. Buell used the sportster motor for their 'sportsbike' with different cam profile and valve springs(better engine head) and people claim those bike generated roughly 10bhp more in stock form . The general consensus is anything more than a exhaust and intake can severly affect engine reliability .

I wholeheartedly agree with your last point , it is the 'dyno between our legs' that matter end of the day but one should still inspect engine performance as it is indicative of the quality ,tuning and engineering of the product.

Basuroy !

Corrected HP means that Corrections have been made for ALtitude / humidity and ambient temp. So that Dyno measurement at sea level comes same as dyno measurement at a different place / time / season.

Stock bhp is 54 but not for the ones you are most likely to meet at a Stop light.

Torque is a Unitless quantity??
I feel cheated -my college taught me it was NM or Pound-feet , when did this new research get published making torque Unitless!

General consensus about life of a motor? was this bill tables in congress and general consensus was made by saying Aye! Who gives a Damn if this is Consessus of Triumph owners.

very standard Official HD Intake and exhaust upgrades with remap makes 53-56bhp at wheel , putting it 64-68bhp at crank.

Triumph s are nice bikes and have been loved for generations , but pulling down what you guys did not buy is quite childish!
Dont worry you can hate harley davidsons but you cant get rid of them!

Moreover if you guys were all hooked up by performance , 65bhp isnt something which would allow you to escape gravity and achive escape velocity . Ninja 650 should be right kind of comparision since it too has Plastic and inline twin and is far below craft being offered by HD.

And Those carburators were not kept to make retro appeal, they were kept so that Triumph does not have to develop entirely new manifold , Just throw out all the internals of carb and hook up an Injector. ( Someone must have been Promoted for cost saving for sure) , New manifold would have required new machining / validation and host of R&D , plus seperate part numbers for world wide triumph dealers.

How nicely fake carb is hooked up to head intake using a rubber hose and circlip used on tractor radiator is quite quality centric!

[basuroy]

@dustom_99 !

As I understand the terminology , mentioning "corrected" means correction for transmission losses and altitude etc ( did not know about altitude and temp correction , thank you for educating me on that ) on the data measured at rear wheel . To avoid this confusion , actual power delivered at rear wheel is normally mentioned as "real wheel horsepower" since 'corrected rear wheel' can mean either rear wheel or corrections applied for losses on the data obtained from rear wheel for getting the crank value .

If stock is 54 then my apologies though my idea of 45 stock/crank was from the numerous dyno graphs showing the number anything between 43-48 and unless mentioned , dyno figure is always at crank even if conducted at rear wheel(do correct me if I am wrong ).

Torque - my apologies I phrased it wrong , my intended message was thought it is not a fixed number as horsepower and can be multiplied at the expense of rpm by gear ratio .

Is there something wrong with discussing or comparing performance ? If there is then you need to dial down a bit since you seem to be overcompensating there while doing your best to clarify harley performance figures , just for the record I think they matter and a little bit of fluctuation necessarily does not means one is superior than other but at the same time the " look at sportsbike " cliche is getting old now . I am very curious though why do you consider the ninja 650 to be "FAR BELOW" the craft being offered by harley ?

[AC_genius]

Originally Posted by dustom_99

Its amazing to see how Harleys BHP has been consistantly falling , post after post after post. If it continues , soon Harley motor will generate negative HP and start absorbing energy from vehicles around it!
it has just hit a new low of 35rwhp (Just 140bhp/ton), with a weight of 250+kg.
It still hits 0-100 at 5.5 and Hits 160 in 4th gear , 40odd kg lighter and 65bhp ones hit in 5.2 or so I guess.
Surely harley Hp must be from some other planet where its equal to different wattage.

Hey Dustom, you are quite in the groove aren't you! Good critique on the numbers and calculations. I suspect part of the confusion stems from the fact that Harley is so posessive of publishing formal BHP numbers on their models. I have only seen power references in the Screamin Eagle brochures for showing uplift with performance parts.

On a lighter note, I think your passion here may result in a mexican stand-off between the Triumph vs Harley camps. Nonetheless the sportster range completely lives up to their name from both image and performance point of view. Peace to the world!

[dustom_99]

A Magazine article is posted , claiming suspension design of Harley is Plain stupid and shows off as if bonni is the new miracle patented setup , while plainly Ignoring the fact that One is A Belt drive while other is Chain. when one is a normal everyday bike and other is a HOTROD
Unlike chain drive , a belt does not work with slack.
Actually HDs swingarm design is one of the key elements that helps in laying down power off the line.
With Axle , pivot and drive sprocket on GB side all in same line , suspension compress as much as they can according to torque available on wheel. That compression is increasing effective weight on rear wheel , hence effectively increasing friction. No wonder HDs are quicker off the line and take most of the Lighter bikes to cleaners signal to signal and AMA drag races. Take a look at AMA pro champion bikes and their suspension setups

with 70nm and almost 1:10 1st gear ratio , its 700nm ( nearly equal to a Virtual 70kg rider) at the launch assisting you with his weight (your weight + his weight) to push down that rear wheel to asphalt. withing 1/4 to 1/2 a sec of the launch he vanishes and weight distribution comes back, preventing front end lift.

Whereas in bonnie set up , Torque from the motor is trying to compress swing arm ( as in all bikes) , whereas chain tension is acting against compression . Some torque is lost to this conflict for first fractions of second and no addition friction at wheel means its easy to start a burnout / break traction instead of launching like a maniac! which was the original idea of high torque low rev motor!

Although Its not Bonnies fault , It simply is not made to do this kind of stuff, its just an everyday fun bike with decent overall performance .
If the article writer was so intelligent to comment on engineering of motorcycle manufacturers who have been in the game for 100years , he would be working for Triumph or HD not a magazine .

Article also fails to highlight the quality focus that HD gives to each and every sqaure inch on a motorcycle , If retro from 70ies is cool , retro from 30ies is cooler! harley is yet to revise tank / fenders/ headlight / footcontrols design since 1930!
With so many plastic parts (sidecovers / fenders/ flashers / switchgear) bonnie is no retro classic , although on looks one can claim it is.

Ok lets get back to Dyno numbers!
Dyno shops are very unorganized business and no particular guideline exists from SAE or DIN .
Dyno manufacturers supply hardware and software and shops are free to punch in loss % they want to. some print slips with corrected BHP some with SAE corrected and some other print with RAW!
dyno numbers only mean something when you take out a graph for your bike , then mod something and then use same dyno to measure again.

By the way corrected rwhp or corrected HP means correction done for Altitude / humidity and temp not Gear box losses!

And yes Comparing performance has a problem , while performance for a tourer would mean comfort , KMPL and roll on performance and maintainence plus other usual bits , performance for a retro classic bike would mean points scored in retro index plus other usual bits. Performance for a hotrod would mean points scored in Hot rodding index plus other bits.


I do not think There is any confusion regarding BHP from a Harley , or Harley Davidson is possessive about not publishing numbers.
Its quite clear and straight. Harley does not care what others are printing. People love the butt dyno with a V-Twin rumble fun between the Legs!

[basuroy]

Originally Posted by dustom_99

Little bit of sarcasm? and who gets to draw the Line, how much is Little Bit? You? Whatever came was a grain of sand , for the Kind of unverified data you have been posting on a Automotive forum read by millions! I am quite sure Half of not so mechanically Inclined people will think its really is 35rwhp for 883 and other half will think People on TBHP are stupid!

Ok lets get back to Dyno numbers!
Dyno shops are very unorganized business and no particular guideline exists from SAE or DIN .
Dyno manufacturers supply hardware and software and shops are free to punch in loss % they want to. some print slips with corrected BHP some with SAE corrected and some other print with RAW!
dyno numbers only mean something when you take out a graph for your bike , then mod something and then use same dyno to measure again.

By the way corrected rwhp or corrected HP means correction done for Altitude / humidity and temp not Gear box losses!

And yes Comparing performance has a problem , while performance for a tourer would mean comfort , KMPL and roll on performance and maintainence plus other usual bits , performance for a retro classic bike would mean points scored in retro index plus other usual bits. Performance for a hotrod would mean points scored in Hot rodding index plus other bits.

There may be few points left , will continue later!

Well attitude/behavior cannot be quantified so you will have to forgive me for failing to define "little bit". If my data is unverified , I expect it to be corrected so cheers for doing that , my idea of 45 crank was from the numerous dyno charts I saw online , did not realize they are rear wheel figure(because it is normally explicitly mentioned ).

Interesting information regarding dyno , thank you for that since my understanding was limited in hindsight .

Regarding performance , you are correct in your overall definition of performance hence it was somewhat surprising to read "look at ninja 650" from a person with a broad definition of performance , being a sportsbike means vastly different ergonomics and power delivery . The bonney however is closer to a harley sportster in terms of ergonomics and power delivery with both being catered towards leisure riding . As such a performance comparison between them or any other similar bike is not unwarranted . Everything matters with performance being one , if a product lacks in some dept. it is expected it will compensate in another .

[mobike008]

When I started this thread, it was clearly mentioned that I was riding both bikes as a layman and never rode either of compared bikes ever before and comparison was purely between an Iron 883 and Bonneville simply for reason that both are imported motorcycles from iconic brands with primary purpose of liesure biking (forget the standard industry classification jargon given to them of retro, classic, cruiser etc) and more importantly, both are in similar price range.

Therefore, it's every propsective buyers right to compare 2 or more such variants/brands before taking a well informed decision especially since the prospective buyers of such motorcycles primarily look at lifestyle statement, performance, ride and handling besides the overall feel of the bike.

I have purely stated my point of view about both these bikes and do not expect anyone reading this thread to take my word for it. I have repeatedly urged folks here to ride both these bikes back to back and then see if you concur with my feedback and then take your final call

IMO, 883 scores truly well in lifestyle statement department but, has little to offer in other departments when compared to a Bonnie

In India context, People who can afford to spend 7 Lakhs+ on a bike, dont really bother about how many valves are in engine, how much energy it generates per watt, crank/wheel power output, belt drive/chain drive etc.etc as they would attirbute more importance to how the motorcycle feels when they ride it

Besides this, in my opinion % of people who love spending time tinkering with their motorcycle at this price point would be far and few. Majority would utilize their free time from their busy schedules riding the motorycle instead

Much negativity has already flown through the posts here, so my humble request is to stop being key-board warriors and post on this thread only after riding both these motorcycles back to back and come back here and share your views because only then you would be able to add constructively to this thread.

All other deliberations would only result in negativity and utter wasteage of energy spent on typing words at length.

When/If you really do this back to back ride, I will not be surprised at all which motorcycle will be chosen majority of times between these two compared bikes

[Axe77]

I think it would not be amiss to say that a big majority of riders would typically make their choices based on factors of how they feel when they ride a bike.

I am going to limit any specific comments here strictly to bikes I have ridden at least once. I don't own any of these bikes so my impressions will largely be short first ride impressions.

Whether rightly or wrongly, the imports bike market is still at a nascent stage in India compared to the west. The starting point of consideration therefore is budget and from there people look at all available options within a certain price range, which options range across several bike categories, classic, retro, cruiser, sports, hotrod. Simple fact so lets accept it. The logical consequence is that very different bikes will invariably end up getting compared.

All the tech talk is really well for these forums but as many people mentioned, on purchase decisions ultimately it boils down to how you feel when you ride the bike and whether you want it. (Aside from other relevant factors like service, safety features, image, access to riding groups etc that may also play a part).

I was completely sold on the looks of the HD 48 and Iron 883. And then I had a friend's 48 with me for about a week. Its a really nice bike no doubt but I just wansn't (a) comfortable personally on it (that's a very personal ergonomic issue); (b) didn't enjoy the way the gear ratios were spaced; and (c) found the way it rode over even the smallest bumps completely unacceptable. All in all, I didn't feel I would feel the satisfaction of ownership justifying plonking 10 big ones on it.

When the Triumphs launched, I was completely smitten by the Street Triple. I had spent hours reading comparos and reviews of the ST at that time and was totally sold on it. I didn't give the Bonnie even a marginal consideration. But one day when I rode both back to back I was totally surprised to find that the Bonnie felt just beautiful to me to ride. It delivered power in a way that suited how I would want to ride a bike. I had no hesitation in my mind that I would never regret spending the money on that bike, both compared to the HD 48 as well as the ST. The ST was very nice too but I just found the Bonnie nicer. You can tell me all that you want about lean angles, torque, dyno, power to weight and what not but ultimately, the bike that brings the biggest smile on my face and fits the budget and seems justifiable is the one that'll get my money. Its as plain and simple as that for me as well as most buyers I would imagine.

For someone else that could well be a N650, or an I 883 or an ST or Hyosung. Its personal and there's no right or wrong. They're all great machines, each have their fair share of pros and cons and there's no point generalising or bashing one option / brand just because another option / brand works for you. Hope we can continue posts keeping that basic concept in mind.

Thanks

[dustom_99]

Originally Posted by mobike008

When I started this thread, it was clearly mentioned that I was riding both bikes as a layman and never rode either of compared bikes ever before and comparison was purely between an Iron 883 and Bonneville simply for reason that both are imported motorcycles from iconic brands with primary purpose of liesure biking (forget the standard industry classification jargon given to them of retro, classic, cruiser etc) and more importantly, both are in similar price range.

Therefore, it's every propsective buyers right to compare 2 or more such variants/brands before taking a well informed decision especially since the prospective buyers of such motorcycles primarily look at lifestyle statement, performance, ride and handling besides the overall feel of the bike.

IMO, 883 scores truly well in lifestyle statement department but, has little to offer in other departments when compared to a Bonnie

Much negativity has already flown through the posts here, so my humble request is to stop being key-board warriors and post on this thread only after riding both these motorcycles back to back and come back here and share your views because only then you would be able to add constructively to this thread.

I am Sorry I did not read the entire thread before , Just now I came to know you had to settle for Bonnie as a compromise for your weight else you preferred sports bikes!

Are you sure you are not part of negativity flying on this thread? While points in favor of Bonnie were being mentioned without defense from HD side , all was good going , as soon as someone counters your choice he is termed as Keyboard warrior? Can You and some others not be accused of being Stats warriors with quotes of quarter mile , top speed , lean angles , while we all know you would not be getting any where near those times . EVER! As you yourself said you are only interested in Leisure riding
please review how your own and Dheeraj's and shubs post have been treated!

YOU started the thread riding as a layman , but soon enough you and some friends became Experts on lean & swingarm design and 0-160times and 200kph top speed ( While forum rules did not apply)!
And why do you think pushing a Unfair comparo down some prospective buyers throat is right? Comparison of Iron and bonnie might be correct for you or your requirements but most people will put it against Ninja 650 at least for now.
Why? because both are Inline twine / Parallel twin . Both have engine & suspension set up for moderate touring , both need attention and lubrication to chain quite frequently and adjustment. Both have plastic parts , cheaper and easier to replace. both are free of vibes for most part of rev range etc .


putting it against Iron or any other 883 is not right because they both represent different philosophy. While HD is about quality ( Of every thing including Engineering as well) for people who would not settle for anything less. Bonne is largely jack of all trades , doing all the usual bits nicely but nothing exceptional or best in the world.
While HD is all about Personality and character of a machine , Bonnie is like Activa on Nitro methane . Smooth and easy to live with but lacking in character and persona .

Infact I am confused who will be the worthy contender . Its not an out an out tourer , it not a classic with all that cheap fit and finish and components. Its no performance bike either at 225kg or so and 65hp .

Had you mentioned you bought it because it is an allrounder , i would have agreed , but once it started becoming better than 883 ( Iron or whatever) without even mentioning what all factors are better with 883 it was one way traffic.

883 has aces up its sleeves that other bikes can not even retro fit as aftermarket parts or performance.
If you want to know , let me know, will post in details.

I remember you saying you went for bonnie as you are ever hungry for power , I wonder how can you quench that hunger on a bonni except probably selling it?
what all upgrades are available and cost thereof!

[r_nairtvm]

Originally Posted by Axe77

but ultimately, the bike that brings the biggest smile on my face and fits the budget and seems justifiable is the one that'll get my money. Its as plain and simple as that for me as well as most buyers I would imagine.

For someone else that could well be a N650, or an I 883 or an ST or Hyosung. Its personal and there's no right or wrong. They're all great machines, each have their fair share of pros and cons and there's no point generalising or bashing one option / brand just because another option / brand works for you. Hope we can continue posts keeping that basic concept in mind.

Thanks

Axe 77,

Very well put !!

I thought that was very objective intended by Mobike008. Like you, he too went in with an open mind and came away in favour of Bonney. Hope all those who come here would keep an open mind and keep this very informative thread going.

Best Regards & Ride Safe

Ram

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by r_nairtvm

Axe 77,

Very well put !!

I thought that was very objective intended by Mobike008. Like you, he too went in with an open mind and came away in favour of Bonney. Hope all those who come here would keep an open mind and keep this very informative thread going.

Best Regards & Ride Safe

Ram

I actually like the way the thread is developing. Lots of useful info flowing in. Also the prospect of a "grudge" race if I read it right. In controlled environement with full protective gear and the knowledge that racing, indeed motorcycling, is a dangerous sport/activity.

Please continue gents! Enough riding the keyboard. Let's organize an out and out comparo on the roads. The environs that bikes are meant for.

Dustom continues to maintain that Harleys because of the way they are built, lay the power down, tuned, etc. will be faster off the block (traffic light to traffic light conditions in real life) and will leave other similar capacity bikes "in the dust."

Let's target that and get that out of the way first? (with or without pink slips .....)

[Vasuki]

I have been a silent spectator to this interesting thread, and have been salivating/dreaming about Bonneville/Street Triple.

Originally Posted by mobike008

Butter smooth and "zero vibrations" until 20% higher speeds than maximum speed of Iron 883 that I rode. Infact, the owner was grinning and said the same thing after I got off the Iron's saddle. Iam sure after riding the Bonnie, your whole body must be shaking from the vibrations....I just smiled and didnt comment anything..Hehe!

Originally Posted by dustom_99

I think more sarcasm has already come and gone on this thread!
where a Mod claims 20% more than top speed of Iron , and still no vibrations .

The post from avinash is ambiguous. It can also be read as maximum speed of Iron 883 he rode, not actually maximum attainable speed of Iron. I hope Avinash clarify this point.

Also I agree with @dustom that dangerous speeds have been discussed in thread directly/indirectly by many a lot including mods, so making a note in Dheeraj's(dkaile) post alone leaves bad taste. I believe, rule should be applicable to all across and discussing such speeds is definetely not encouraging, be it by whom.

BTW I believe all the emotions should be expressed, this also makes the thread more pleasurable to read.

[mobike008]

Originally Posted by Axe77

I think it would not be amiss to say that a big majority of riders would typically make their choices based on factors of how they feel when they ride a bike.

Exactly what I said and nobody can deny it isn't a fact !!

Originally Posted by Axe77

Whether rightly or wrongly, the imports bike market is still at a nascent stage in India compared to the west. The starting point of consideration therefore is budget and from there people look at all available options within a certain price range, which options range across several bike categories, classic, retro, cruiser, sports, hotrod. Simple fact so lets accept it. The logical consequence is that very different bikes will invariably end up getting compared.

Yet again agree, we are the ones spending the big bucks and have every right to compare whichever bike we want in our budget

Originally Posted by Axe77

All the tech talk is really well for these forums but as many people mentioned, on purchase decisions ultimately it boils down to how you feel when you ride the bike and whether you want it. (Aside from other relevant factors like service, safety features, image, access to riding groups etc that may also play a part).

When the Triumphs launched, I was completely smitten by the Street Triple. I had spent hours reading comparos and reviews of the ST at that time and was totally sold on it. I didn't give the Bonnie even a marginal consideration. But one day when I rode both back to back I was totally surprised to find that the Bonnie felt just beautiful to me to ride. It delivered power in a way that suited how I would want to ride a bike. I had no hesitation in my mind that I would never regret spending the money on that bike, both compared to the HD 48 as well as the ST. The ST was very nice too but I just found the Bonnie nicer.

Not surprising to know that. Anyone who has ridden extensively both these bikes have chosen the Bonnie over the Street Tripple and I know several of my own friends with exactly same feedback

Originally Posted by Axe77

You can tell me all that you want about lean angles, torque, dyno, power to weight and what not but ultimately, the bike that brings the biggest smile on my face and fits the budget and seems justifiable is the one that'll get my money. Its as plain and simple as that for me as well as most buyers I would imagine.

+1. Do you think someone spending these big bucks on a bike will spend all his free time reading up on lean angles, dyno, power to weight ratio ( it's a good to know info) but, Iam confident less than 10% of these bike owners even know what all these technical jargon means

Like me he will probably have a busy work life and will rather spend it constructively riding it

Well, if that makes me a less motorcylist than someone claiming to be a hardcore, then let it be. Iam not here to prove a point to anyone

Originally Posted by Axe77

For someone else that could well be a N650, or an I 883 or an ST or Hyosung. Its personal and there's no right or wrong. They're all great machines, each have their fair share of pros and cons

Well said, all are good bikes but, some tick for one while it may not for others.

[dustom_99]

Originally Posted by ebonho

I actually like the way the thread is developing. Lots of useful info flowing in. Also the prospect of a "grudge" race if I read it right. In controlled environement with full protective gear and the knowledge that racing, indeed motorcycling, is a dangerous sport/activity.

Please continue gents! Enough riding the keyboard. Let's organize an out and out comparo on the roads. The environs that bikes are meant for.

Dustom continues to maintain that Harleys because of the way they are built, lay the power down, tuned, etc. will be faster off the block (traffic light to traffic light conditions in real life) and will leave other similar capacity bikes "in the dust."

Let's target that and get that out of the way first? (with or without pink slips .....)

Why not, Do let me Know what all Pink slips are you carrying , then we can plan a date or something!

If one is out in market with dough in pocket , Just looking to Improve His lifestyle or chase away mid life blues / showcase something to guests at his house , Anything / Any bike will do!

You can only appreciate a Religion , if you know what the Gods Stood for!