[chinkara]

Tsk had started a thread called "When truck drivers go hatch hopping" when he bought his Micra. I liked it, so I thought I would plagiarize it.

I have been a hatch driver all my life. First my father's 800, then my trusted wagon R which has been with me for 9 years now. I have always loved my hatch -- it can go where bikes fear to tread and help me navigate the Delhi traffic well.

But, Gurgaon / NCR roads being what they are, and my 9 year old suspension even after an overhaul being what it is, my beloved is increasingly complaining of getting her bottom pinched in potholes and speed-breakers. Additionally, in the last couple of years, we felt the need of a "baddi gaddi" for outings when my parents or in-laws visit. Sedans were ruled out as we regularly see Civics etc. squealing much more than my Wagon R at our friendly neighbourhood bumps. Additionally, we felt the sedans are all very similar looking these days. The only sedan we actually liked was the Cedia, but HM being in the state it is in and the service network being what it is, we decided not to risk it.

So a "truck" it was to be. But trucks don't come cheap. So 2 years back, we started putting money together for a truck. A budget of 10 L was agreed on. And about a year back, we actively started looking.

First, the budget ruled out Endeavours and Fortuners and Grand Vitaras (although we liked the Vitara). I liked the Yeti (followed Shankar Balan's thread) but it was too much of a stretch budget-wise. And Skoda's notorious service. That left us with the Scorpio, the Safari and the Innova.

The Scorpio was ruled out by home ministry: "I don't like the looks".
The Innova was ruled out because "It is a cab". So the only vehicle left was Safari. But reading about the reliability issues, the niggles and the service issues, we hesitated.

In the meantime, XUV was launched. And there was talk of Duster and Ecosport and Merlin being round the corner. So we decided to take a test drive of both XUV and Safari. This was in November-December 2011.

Now before taking the test drive, we listed out our major requirements:

1. It has to be a comfortable 5-seater. We were not interested in the last 2 seats, but we wanted enough legroom for 5.
2. It had to have good suspension and take potholes well.
3. It had to have easy ingress / egress, especially for our parents.
4. Service and reliability is desirable. Neither of us has the time to do a lot of follow-ups.

So, on to the test drives. We loved the ride in the Safari. It was almost like sitting in a sofa. Ergonomics were good for me (6'2" both ways shall we say). Suspension was good, we didn't feel the potholes. There was some engine noise in the cabin, which we did not find excessive. On the negative side, slightly spongy gear.I feared about clutch travel, but my wife also found the clutch reasonable to operate. But for me, the brakes seemed a bit iffy. Not sure if it had anything to do with this being an SUV though, because I felt the same about a Dodge Ram in USA.

Now to the XUV. We were ok with the looks. Both of us felt it was not as good as the Safari look-wise, but it was quite ok. Driving pleasure was quite good. The engine was much more refined than the Safari. The gear was a little vague. More of a problem for me was the lack of an armrest which meant I could not find an ergonomic position for gear shifting during the 20 min test drive. But I hoped that would be sorted out later. What both of us felt, however, was that the ride was not as good as the Safari. I am not very keen on electronics, so wasn't very impressed with all that jing-bang. Value wise, it seemed a good deal. We decided to test out the suspension again when my parents would be here next.

In the meantime, we thought we would wait for the Duster. And what a wait it was.

In the beginning of July, my parents came over. So we took another TD of the XUV, with my parents at the back (i.e. middle row). It confirmed what we had felt, the suspension was not as good as the Safari. My mom complained that the jerking was as bad as the Wagon R if not worse, and I wasn't even riding roughshod over potholes. So XUV was ruled out.

We finally test-drove the Duster a couple of weeks back. I liked the 110 RXZ. It was a stable, no frills car. Looks were fine. Suspension, we discovered, was much better than the XUV. Gearbox was far better than both safari and XUV. Mileage was fine. However, we found the following negatives:

1. It was not a comfortable 5-seater. It was actually a 4 seater, thanks to the much discussed rear AC.
2. I just couldn't find a comfortable position with good under-thigh support.
3. With me in a comforable driving position (ok, non-uncomfortable), there was no way a 5'7" or 5'8" person could sit comfortably behind me. Why, oh why, did they not put the rear seats on rails or push them back a bit?
4. They did not launch a 4x4. Nor do they have plans for one. And given the pricing, and the fact that in UK they launched 4x4 only in the premium model, I am not sure I would be able to afford it.

So now we have Duster and Safari in the consideration set. Decision points are as follows:

1. Do I need a 4x4 or is a 4x2 enough? I would go for for the odd weekend trip in a month, but twice I got stuck with my Wagon R on unknown roads.
2. Does it make sense to buy Safari now that Storme is about to be launched? Should we wait for Storme instead?
3. Renault's non-existent service network or the known evil that is TASS / TASC?
4. Does it make sense to wait for Ecosport?

Our deliberation on those points are as above:
1. We are buying this car with a 10-year horizon. So while we won't need 4x4 for 95% of the time, it makes sense to pay 60-70 K extra for that 5%.
2. Storme is probably being launched in Diwali (source: dealer plus my TML sources). And it will have a queue. And we both feel that it has less "character" than the Safari due to the removal of the spare wheel at the back. So, maybe it does not make sense to wait for Storme.
3. No idea.
4. We wonder whether it will actually launch in early 2013, or will it also get delayed like both the Duster and the Storme.

Now what do people feel?

[negativeH]

Originally Posted by chinkara

[*]Do I need a 4x4 or is a 4x2 enough?

For a long term vehicle, and you're actually interested in going for any terrain available, it should be sensible to get a 4*4. The extra money would be delivered in the form of ease and performance over the years.

[*]Does it make sense to buy Safari now that Storme is about to be launched? Should we wait for Storme instead?

I am a big Safari fan and rate it as the best SUV in the segment. The storme as you've said, looks a little pale in front of the Safari. It has been a long time since they've been murmuring 'bout the Storme, if you're happy with the current one I'd say go for it.

[*]Renault's non-existent service network or the known evil that is TASS / TASC?

They're taking the market seriously, and are trying to get a good grip on the customers; so it should not be an issue. If you're in the NCR, I don't think there should be much trouble for an annual service.

[*]Does it make sense to wait for Ecosport?

Now that is tricky; I think that the launch has been puched to Q1 of 2013, just heard. Probably if you can get a definite time frame and it suits your need, it makes sense to wait; the more choice the better.

But won't the Safari be a little too high for your parents to get in? It's almost a climb and many old people (no offence) find it difficult. Have you thought 'bout that?

[mayuresh]

One risk with both Duster and Storme is lack of history. For Storme, the risk
is twofold - how long to wait, will it be really launched by said dates,
besides how will it turn out to be.

Safari would be a known devil and can be bought without much waiting.

In looks department I'd say Safari is easily better than the other two.

[silverado]

Originally Posted by chinkara

Tsk had started a thread called "When truck drivers go hatch hopping" when he bought his Micra.

Small Correction ,TSK bought a Toyota LIVA Diesel

[chinkara]

Originally Posted by negativeH

They're taking the market seriously, and are trying to get a good grip on the customers; so it should not be an issue. If you're in the NCR, I don't think there should be much trouble for an annual service.

Service outside NCR is what I am worried about. I have done emergency repairs and servicing of my Wagon R in Hoshiarpur and Pathankot, for example.

Originally Posted by negativeH

But won't the Safari be a little too high for your parents to get in? It's almost a climb and many old people (no offence) find it difficult. Have you thought 'bout that?

Even with the step? Will have to test that out then.

Originally Posted by mayuresh

One risk with both Duster and Storme is lack of history. For Storme, the risk
is twofold - how long to wait, will it be really launched by said dates,
besides how will it turn out to be.

Safari would be a known devil and can be bought without much waiting.

In looks department I'd say Safari is easily better than the other two.

Agree sir about looks, although we like Duster as well. And as far as history goes, Duster is a proven vehicle internationally. An ex-colleague of mine had a Duster ~2 years back. Yes, maybe not in Indian conditions, but IMHO the "difficulty" of Indian conditions is often overstated.

Small Correction ,TSK bought a Toyota LIVA Diesel

Serve me right for not checking and trusting my poor memory. Liva it was.

[negativeH]

Originally Posted by chinkara

Service outside NCR is what I am worried about.

Well Renault will definitely not have the Maruti repair shops we see on every nook and corner in the near future, for sure. But as long as major cities are concerned, it should be good. This is something you'd have to plan out beforehand on every trip; buying a relatively new company's vehicle will always have this drawback.

Even with the step? Will have to test that out then.

I say that because my friend was on a look out for a SUV/MUV (5 seater at max) recently and he ruled out the Safari-Fortuner becaue it was tough for his parents to get into. He finally got an Ertiga. Getting into a Safari does involve high stepping and lower back pressure.

[nilanjanray]

I would recommend the Duster. Don't think you will need unnecessary visits to the ASC apart from regular service (unlike with the Safari).

Or think of going for a pre-owned vehicle. Lots of options there - Pajero, Vitara (petrol though), Outlander (again petrol), Fortuner (if you can stretch your budget), Captiva.

[S@ndy]

Considering your needs, that you need a long-term vehicle and I guess you should buy a 4*4 vehicle, and for that, Safari is a known product. Since, you have ruled out scorpio and XUV, I suggest you to go for Safari.

I agree that going in the Safari requires a lower back pressure and hi stepping and the scary Tata A.S.S., but if you can ignore these, then I surely would recommend you to go for Safari. And the launch of Safari Storme is scheduled till Diwali this year and it's plain looks aren't attractive as current Safari (no offence).

Thus, from me, Safari would be your best bet and the problem of climbing in it can be solved by steps. The steps should somewhat reduce this problem.

BUT, There is even one more option. You could opt for a second-hand 4*4 vehicle such as the Fortuner, which is a reliable vehicle. It would be easily available at a price of 8.8-10 lakhs depending one condition or even more, but would entertain you with it's humoungous engine and built-to-fight-against-nature character.

As for the Duster AWD, this version won't come to India until last quarter of 2013 as Renault are banking huge volumes on Duster 2WD.

Waiting for the Ecosport, not a sensible choice if you hate waiting but a worthy and competent vehicle but not sure of it's AWD avatar availability.

Hope the above information helps!

Keep revvin'
S@ndy

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by chinkara

. A budget of 10 L was agreed on. And about a year back, we actively started looking.

drive, we listed out our major requirements:

1. It has to be a comfortable 5-seater. We were not interested in the last 2 seats, but we wanted enough legroom for 5.
2. It had to have good suspension and take potholes well.
3. It had to have easy ingress / egress, especially for our parents.
4. Service and reliability is desirable. Neither of us has the time to do a lot of follow-ups.

We finally test-drove the Duster a couple of weeks back. I liked the 110 RXZ. It was a stable, no frills car. Looks were fine. Suspension, we discovered, was much better than the XUV. Gearbox was far better than both safari and XUV. Mileage was fine. However, we found the following negatives:

1. It was not a comfortable 5-seater. It was actually a 4 seater, thanks to the much discussed rear AC.
2. I just couldn't find a comfortable position with good under-thigh support.
3. With me in a comforable driving position (ok, non-uncomfortable), there was no way a 5'7" or 5'8" person could sit comfortably behind me. Why, oh why, did they not put the rear seats on rails or push them back a bit?
4. They did not launch a 4x4. Nor do they have plans for one. And given the pricing, and the fact that in UK they launched 4x4 only in the premium model, I am not sure I would be able to afford it.

1. Do I need a 4x4 or is a 4x2 enough? I would go for for the odd weekend trip in a month, but twice I got stuck with my Wagon R on unknown roads.
2. Does it make sense to buy Safari now that Storme is about to be launched? Should we wait for Storme instead?
3. Renault's non-existent service network or the known evil that is TASS / TASC?
4. Does it make sense to wait for Ecosport?

1. We are buying this car with a 10-year horizon. So while we won't need 4x4 for 95% of the time, it makes sense to pay 60-70 K extra for that 5%.
2. Storme is probably being launched in Diwali (source: dealer plus my TML sources). And it will have a queue. And we both feel that it has less "character" than the Safari due to the removal of the spare wheel at the back. So, maybe it does not make sense to wait for Storme.
3. No idea.
4. We wonder whether it will actually launch in early 2013, or will it also get delayed like both the Duster and the Storme.

Now what do people feel?

Hi,

I read through your detailed post and appreciate the clarity of thought.

I am placing my thoughts below:
1. No real need of 4WD - 2WD is more than sufficient provided you have a reasonably good engine, ground clearance and general toughness.
2. Monocoque chassis are better handlers than the ladder on frame one's.
3. Modern design is generally nicer than the older stuff
4. Mostly you will need a 2 seater + luggage which will occasionally morph into a 4-5 seater with luggage.
5. Ride comfort is important.
6. Diesel power I guess will be a help
7. Mostly city driven with the occasional out of town foray
8. You are working on a budget and dont really want to stretch.
9. You do want max bang for the buck.

To me this list is admirably provided for by what the Duster offers as of this moment in its RXL (O) trim as well as RXZ trim.

You may not need the 110BHP - consider the 85 BHP - atleast test drive it.
If you have the budget for for the 110BHP Duster top spec and enjoy yourself for the foreseeable future.

I would say simply expunge all thoughts of the Storme and Safari etc from your mind - go for the new baby - you wont regret it. I would have, had I been you. Indeed, I would have bought this vehicle had I been in the market now because in my opinion it is a very good upgrade for a Scorpio owner, with roughly the same set of needs/ wants as you have outlined above.

The EcoSport is the only other vehicle which might fit the bill but it will be significantly smaller than the Duster and that may be a challenge for you.

All the best in the decision making process. The chase is always better than the catch, so enjoy it!

[cool_dube]

If most (say > 80%) of your driving is going to be within city limits then I'd advice against the Safari, given its bulk and large turning radius - that said, many on this forum drive their Safaris extensively in the city just for the sheer comfort and driving pleasure it offers on those boring home/office commutes. I, for one, rarely take mine out in the city given the pathetic Bangalore traffic and narrow roads. It is only a tourer for me, which is what I bought it for. And believe me, there is nothing that comes even close to the Safari in terms of comfort and driving pleasure, at least under the 20L bracket, for covering the length and breadth of the country.

Given that you have already ruled out almost all of the usual suspects, I'd agree with most here - go for the Duster. However, if your heart is edging towards the Safari, go for it mate... else you will end up ogling at each and every Safari that you will come across on the roads Contrary to the general (mis)conception, it is a reliable vehicle - I have had to visit the TASS only once other than the regular service routine, in the last 3 years of ownership.

[Off Roadie]

This is an interesting thread, these thoughts have been in my mind for a long time and this may be the ideal thread to let go. Sorry if I add to your confusion. I am leaving out the obvious pros and cons that are all over the place.

Let's start with the duster (flavour of the season)
Pros
1) Souped up station wagon on stilts a'la BMW X1, fits the bill as an SUV although its not as imposing as the big boys.
2) Brilliant driving dynamics.
Cons
1) interiors seem cramped + lack of under thigh support for tall chaps, major deal breaker if long drives are a passion

Safari
Definitely worth waiting for the Storme but given the development time and costs the Tatas have spent it might be overpriced a'la Aria. (I hope not, but it's a fear).
Pros
1) Looks good despite it's age
2) No other SUV can carry 5 people in more comfort than this baby, not even the Endeavour or Fortuner.
3) If you read a fellow bhpians report on the Storme, it's improved considerably.
Cons
1) The Tata related ones already mentioned
2) Dont know why people expect it from SUV's but it can't corner like the Duster.
3) 8 years from now you will be selling it for scrap value

Scorpio
Well it's been ruled out by you but posting it so that it's included in the comparison
Pros
1) Smallest, big SUV. It has the intimidating road presence required and compact dimensions that make driving in the city and other tight spots easy.
2) Supremely comfortable for 4 if you opt for the Captain Chair version.
Cons
1) Smallest, big SUV. Yup the small wheel base and big tall body gives it the handling characteristic of a tennis ball.
2) Mahindra's quality/reliability has actually come down a bit as experienced on my own CRDe and M-Hawk experience.
3) has a decent resale today but won't have it after 8 years.

EcoSport
It's gonna be the sexiest compact SUV when launched. Since it comes in the tax break category I expect it to have a price advantage over the duster.
1) Gonna be good from the outside and inside (interiors shared with new fiesta will be better than the Duster and best in class)
2) Price should be good, I think Ford will taste success if it's priced at par with the Fiesta. Too high and they may loose it.
Cons
1) It's gonna be a little cramped by SUV standards but based on the pics and walk around video posted on the Ecosport thread the interiors may be (spacewise) like a roomier Ritz with a higher seating position. This could spring a Yeti like surprise but will have to wait hence a con for now.

The mini Xylo
Mahindra could have made a lot if it were launched a year earlier. This product may suffer a Logan like fate for being launched too late. It can still pack a punch though. Don't think I can call it a compact SUV, This will be the first compact MUV.
Pros
1) Interior space may be best in class, this based on the Xylo and having seen a test mule on the highway.
2) Smaller Xylo with tax breaks should make this the cheapest of the lot and give it a big Price advantage.
Cons
1) Quality of Interiors though decent may be the worst in segment.
2) Definitely gonna be a funny looking product.

[n.devdath]

Originally Posted by chinkara

Our deliberation on those points are as above:
1. We are buying this car with a 10-year horizon. So while we won't need 4x4 for 95% of the time, it makes sense to pay 60-70 K extra for that 5%.
2. Storme is probably being launched in Diwali (source: dealer plus my TML sources). And it will have a queue. And we both feel that it has less "character" than the Safari due to the removal of the spare wheel at the back. So, maybe it does not make sense to wait for Storme.
3. No idea.
4. We wonder whether it will actually launch in early 2013, or will it also get delayed like both the Duster and the Storme.

Now what do people feel?

For a 10 year horizon, what I too am considering for my next vehicle, I would not recommend a Tata or a Mahindra, looking at their quality. I would ONLY recommend a Japanese/Korean car.

Having said that, I would still recommend a pre owned or a new Innova to you over the Duster, the XUV, Safari, or all the other contenders in that segment.

If you are completely against the Innova, then I d recommend a pre owned premium SUV from a higher segment. They are built better, last longer and will make you feel premium, which is a very important consideration when you intend to use it for that long.

If you plan to replace it in say, 5 years/post warranty, then I d recommend the Duster or the Storme, depending on your ability to wait.

[torquing_points]

I love the Safari. But I think the car for you is the Duster, judging by the tone of your TD experience.

Typically, with a new entrant, I'm always worried about how the service is going to turn out. That's why I have not considered the likes of Volvo or Nissan in my past car choices, after having been burned by Skoda. (Anyone remember the ol' Silvertone workshop in the basement of a house-turned-into-dealership, where it was a minor miracle that the cars came up the ramp fine?)

BUT, Considering how many Dusters they have managed to sell, I think that their service / spares situation wouldn't be like a new company who is still trying to setup distribution. They have a critical mass from the get-go, and I expect that their service is likely to be fine.

With regards to the 4x4 and 4x2, Im not sure where in the NCR area you will need a 4x4. Even in roads that lead into interior parts past Manesar, like near the Classic Golf Club, you don't need a 4x4. Of course, you cant drive a 4x2 car as if its a 4x4 - but even on that road, which is the worst I have been on in NCR, I've pulled through slush, water, mud etc with a high 4x2 SUV. Of course, a Sedan may not be able to do it easily - but the higher ground clearance and bigger wheels will make the Duster pull through.

I dont think you should really worry about the 4 x 4. Is there a specific road / area that you anticipate being stuck on in the NCR area? Or is it just a general 'good to have' feature that you're looking for? If it's the latter - then forget about it.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by negativeH

For a long term vehicle, and you're actually interested in going for any terrain available, it should be sensible to get a 4*4. The extra money would be delivered in the form of ease and performance over the years.

What ease & performance? OP hasn't mentioned any need for 4x4 capability? 4x4 components actually lead to uneasiness (additional maintenance) and dip in performance (additional weight).

Refer to this thread and post:

Originally Posted by GTO

Get a 4x4 ONLY if:

- You intend to off-road. This point is applicable to Jeeps, Gypsy (made only in 4x4) and also some SUVs that can handle light off-roading (Fortuner etc.).

- You are going to drive on challenging terrain, including in-existent roads. Someone I know has a property in Lonavla that a 4x2 simply cannot access. You'll just be spinning your wheels in the monsoons. Moderator TSK won't be able to visit 50% of his dream locations with a 4x2. Want to drive on a beach or the desert? Get a 4x4.

- Your city has snow (inapplicable to India)

Else, just get the 4x2 variant and get done with it. No point lugging around additional equipment that will only result in unnecessary weight, loss of fuel efficiency and higher maintenance. Also, you pay 1 lakh more for the 4x4 gear that you'll never use, and never quite recover at the time of resale either.

On a related note, I highly recommend sedans over SUVs for those that don't need 3 rows of seats or that ground clearance : Related Thread

[negativeH]

Originally Posted by chinkara

[*]Do I need a 4x4 or is a 4x2 enough? I would go for for the odd weekend trip in a month, but twice I got stuck with my Wagon R on unknown roads.

Originally Posted by GTO

What ease & performance? OP hasn't mentioned any need for 4x4 capability?

I agree that in the long run 4*4 would perhaps lead to added maintenance and costs but I presumed that by his weekend trips and being stuck, he meant on difficult terrains. Also he had pointed out about non-city servicing, so that added to the 'difficult terrain'/non-existent roads point. And we can safely assume that the desire of off-roading can only grow on a person, so in his prospective 10+ year ownership he should/could need it.

I'll read through the SUV vs Sedan thread you've posted and probably clear out my mind regarding this now, and if i have any doubts am sure the forum would be able to clarify them.