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Old 21st January 2015, 22:19   #61
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

"Dear Sir,

We appologise for the inconvinience caused in this regards. We assure you the best service in future. And as per our telephonic communication, you are visiting Marikar Kottayam as per your convinient date and time, so we are closing your complaint from our end.
And for any assistance in future please feel free to contact us on our toll free number (1800-209-5556).

Dealer CRM Contact Details:-
Mr Santosh-- xxxxxxxxxx CRM Marikar Engineers Kottayam

FIAT Mail Id--
service.india@fiat.com

Regards,
FIAT India."

As usual, fiat closed my complaint and ill have to start afresh from the dealer end.
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Old 22nd January 2015, 09:39   #62
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

drdeepu, if you do not have any serious problems with your car running apart from oil consumption then please try the mineral oil option before rushing off to change the short block or whatever. You can even do a DIY, get a jack stand and a T30, T40 torx bit and 10mm T Handle and get going. When you use the mineral oil, either your problem will be solved or else if the valve seals are beyond redemption, you will have to change the short block anyway.
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Old 22nd January 2015, 10:15   #63
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When you use the mineral oil, either your problem will be solved or else if the valve seals are beyond redemption, you will have to change the short block anyway.
No harm in trying anyway but my doubt is what difference would it have w.r.t to oil?

Be it mineral/semi-synthetic/synthetic the oil consumption would be similar.

I am still surprised as to the engine is consuming oil at high rates but no evidence as to where it is going - A mystery!
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Old 22nd January 2015, 11:01   #64
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

Oil is getting burnt because of weak valve seal. On contact with air, oil is getting burnt. It will eventually leave carbon deposits on engine and will slowly wreck it from inside. So there is no leak on visual inspection yet oil is consumed.

Synthetic oil being thinner and low viscosity will leak past rings and valve guides than heavier mineral oils. Synthetic oil is a great lubricant but not a great 'break-in oil'. After opening engine for timing chain, run on mineral oil for a few thousand kilometers before changing over to synthetic would be my suggestion.
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Old 22nd January 2015, 11:16   #65
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

Quote:
Originally Posted by FINTAIL View Post
Why does it happen: People say- Service intervals. Personally- I have another finding. See- The damage to the engine ancillaries will be negligible in case of high service intervals. However- The engine's tune- that is the way it blurts out power is also one of the main causes.
By an extended service interval, people are changing the oil also that late during the service. The timing chain is lubricated by the engine oil and an engine oil which has lost its prime will directly effect the timing chain. A 15 thousand kilometer service interval will never work for any car in India. I know they have changed it to 10 now, but why the 60 thousand kilometer timing chain interval ? It's pointless to have a timing chain when it's changed earlier than what usually timing belts last.

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Originally Posted by FINTAIL View Post
The 2009-10 Linea's were known for the turbo kick. Obviously, I know a kick is captivating to the enthusiasts like us, but it can be somewhat stressful for the (timing chain of) MJD, because of its tune (turbo kick- that is), and the weight it had to lug around.
But the older Swift Diesel, before the facelift came ( not this facelift, the one before that came) had the best Turbo kick ever. I have that version of the Swift and I have gunned it in fun to drive mode like no one's business, no timing chain change/no timing chain nose and its 1 lakh 6 thousand kilometers now. There are many examples of similar age and mileage Swift Diesels on team-bhp and absolutely no problems in this area for them.

Of course the Bhp is a bit down in the Swift by 14 odd, but the torque is not all that different at 190 NM for the Swift vs the 209 NM for the Linea Diesel. Yes, the kerb weight is 200 odd kgs more in the Linea than the Swift but that should hardly have an impact on timing chain and moreover you get the same 1.3 Diesel Linea in Turkey too.

Last edited by humyum : 22nd January 2015 at 11:17.
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Old 22nd January 2015, 11:29   #66
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

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Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
I am still surprised as to the engine is consuming oil at high rates but no evidence as to where it is going - A mystery!
Talked with Fiat Dealership service manager . He told me that as per there investigation on numerous similar cases the issue is because of high wear and tear. Fiat engines are BS4 and the fuel available is much worse because of that high carbon deposit is found at EGR . The carbon gets mixed up and eat's the engine inside out .The total issue count reported exceeds 50 cars in this dealership alone and rarely 75bhp punto's are also affected .

Last edited by justin.das : 22nd January 2015 at 11:53.
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Old 22nd January 2015, 12:35   #67
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

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Originally Posted by drdeepudev View Post
"Dear Sir,
.
Take the car in your hands. Put someone in the drivers seat, and tell the person to revv the EmmJayDee at somewhere around 1200-1500 rpm, for some intervals (~ 5 min). Try and determine the cause of leak yourself.

Check whatever I had mentioned previously. While at it- Have a look at the coolant and radiator cap as well. If some oil streaks, or contamination is evidently visible....then it implies oil seal failure, in the radiator joints to the engine.

If you are unable to determine anything, next stop, FNG. Very competent. Determine their approach, and have the work done from FASS as I had said earlier.

Another thing that strikes me:A] The timing chain interval is too damn early. In your case, clearly multiple TC changes have taken place.

B] The replacement involves opening up the MJD. And that's where the complication starts, for, the timing chain must be perfectly aligned with the valve gear/two camshafts, and with the crankshaft as well. That is- Top to bottom, the chain must be perfectly aligned, with all parts.

Now- Owing to multiple changes, perhaps the job done was not so perfect. The engine ideally should be taken out, and then opened. And perhaps, due to improper torquing, the TC sprockets wore off?

Although I'm equally confused here as well- I would have the car checked by myself, by a mech from a competent FNG, and if the cause still evades us, the half-engine kit is the way to go, I'm afraid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by humyum View Post

Of course the Bhp is a bit down in the Swift by 14 odd, but the torque is not all that different at 190 NM for the Swift vs the 209 NM for the Linea Diesel. Yes, the kerb weight is 200 odd kgs more in the Linea than the Swift but that should hardly have an impact on timing chain and moreover you get the same 1.3 Diesel Linea in Turkey too.
The Swift is 200 odd kg lower. And has merely 20NM torque lesser than the Linea. Ok? Now, the Swift , with its lower kerb weight and torque, sometimes feels quite quick and zippy. Too much power-in too small a car-type situation.

With merely 20NM extra torque, and (200KG EXTRA WT), the Linea MJD has, in all honesty, just about adequate power. Nothing more, and absolutely nothing less.

See the difference? Lugging around such weight is indeed tedious, as is evident.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justin.das View Post
Talked with Fiat Dealership service manager . He told me that as per there investigation on numerous similar cases the issue is because of high wear and tear. Fiat engines are BS4 and the fuel available is much worse because of that high carbon deposit is found at EGR . The carbon gets mixed up and eat's the engine inside out .The total issue count reported exceeds 50 cars in this dealership alone and rarely 75bhp punto's are also affected .
Oh really? I find this ridiculous. More Swift's frequent the badlands of India, than compared to Linea's and Punto's. When did we last hear a well maintained Swift conking off at 80k km?

This issue is limited to the earlier batches (upto '11) of the Linea and Punto 90HP only. I've never come across 2012 (and beyond) ones having the same issue.
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Old 22nd January 2015, 13:43   #68
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

Quote:
Originally Posted by FINTAIL View Post
Take the car in your hands. Put someone in the drivers seat, and tell the person to revv the EmmJayDee at somewhere around 1200-1500 rpm, for some intervals (~ 5 min). Try and determine the cause of leak yourself.

Check whatever I had mentioned previously. While at it- Have a look at the coolant and radiator cap as well. If some oil streaks, or contamination is evidently visible....then it implies oil seal failure, in the radiator joints to the engine.

If you are unable to determine anything, next stop, FNG. Very competent. Determine their approach, and have the work done from FASS as I had said earlier.
Yes that's the next step . Currently my car is with the dealership .Lets wait and see what they have to say after detailed check up .

Quote:
Originally Posted by FINTAIL View Post
Another thing that strikes me:A] The timing chain interval is too damn early. In your case, clearly multiple TC changes have taken place.

B] The replacement involves opening up the MJD. And that's where the complication starts, for, the timing chain must be perfectly aligned with the valve gear/two camshafts, and with the crankshaft as well. That is- Top to bottom, the chain must be perfectly aligned, with all parts.

Now- Owing to multiple changes, perhaps the job done was not so perfect. The engine ideally should be taken out, and then opened. And perhaps, due to improper torquing, the TC sprockets wore off?
This point is very much possible as the skill level of these dealership mechanics cannot be trusted and they are are not working wholeheartedly .They are working for sake of there job


Quote:
Originally Posted by FINTAIL View Post

With merely 20NM extra torque, and (200KG EXTRA WT), the Linea MJD has, in all honesty, just about adequate power. Nothing more, and absolutely nothing less.

See the difference? Lugging around such weight is indeed tedious, as is evident.


Oh really? I find this ridiculous. More Swift's frequent the badlands of India, than compared to Linea's and Punto's. When did we last hear a well maintained Swift conking off at 80k km?

This issue is limited to the earlier batches (upto '11) of the Linea and Punto 90HP only. I've never come across 2012 (and beyond) ones having the same
issue.
Yes asked the same question and they replied that the issue is very much there across all brands and models . If the fuel quality alone is the issue then all MJD powered car's will have this same issue .i don't think so .Most probably the weight vs displacement and the turbo kick (Engine mapping) will be the culprit
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Old 22nd January 2015, 15:37   #69
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

Quote:
Originally Posted by FINTAIL View Post

The Swift is 200 odd kg lower. And has merely 20NM torque lesser than the Linea. Ok? Now, the Swift , with its lower kerb weight and torque, sometimes feels quite quick and zippy. Too much power-in too small a car-type situation.

With merely 20NM extra torque, and (200KG EXTRA WT), the Linea MJD has, in all honesty, just about adequate power. Nothing more, and absolutely nothing less.

See the difference? Lugging around such weight is indeed tedious, as is evident.
In that case the Manza Diesel with similar weight as the Linea should have the same problems as a Fiat Linea right ? The turbo kick is as vicious in that too. Sudden Burst.

There have been some Swift Diesels too with a timing chain noise and change, most of these cars have had this timing chain noise because of 10 thousand kilometer oil change intervals on 15W-40 Mineral oil and people who changed the oil earlier were spared. I myself have no timing chain noise even at 1 lakh 6 thousand kilometers, I have changed the oil at 6 to 7 thousand intervals on an average.

Companies who have 15 thousand kilometer change intervals don't realize the ground reality. Every Fiat MJD or Diesel car sold in India is not a highway run car and no city car in India can be expected to last long with a 15-10 thousand service interval. Air filter gets chocked, Oil loses its properties because of constant sitting in traffic at idle and start stops and what not.
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Old 22nd January 2015, 17:15   #70
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Default Re: Fiat 90 BHP Engine .Timing chain issue & recall & Oil Consumption

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Originally Posted by humyum View Post
In that case the Manza Diesel with similar weight as the Linea should have the same problems as a Fiat Linea right ? The turbo kick is as vicious in that too. Sudden Burst.
Yes the Manza Diesel also have the same issue if the guys at Fiat service center can be believed .I don't know any manza owner who faces the same issue .

Quote:
Originally Posted by humyum View Post
There have been some Swift Diesels too with a timing chain noise and change, most of these cars have had this timing chain noise because of 10 thousand kilometer oil change intervals on 15W-40 Mineral oil and people who changed the oil earlier were spared. I myself have no timing chain noise even at 1 lakh 6 thousand kilometers, I have changed the oil at 6 to 7 thousand intervals on an average.

Companies who have 15 thousand kilometer change intervals don't realize the ground reality. Every Fiat MJD or Diesel car sold in India is not a highway run car and no city car in India can be expected to last long with a 15-10 thousand service interval. Air filter gets chocked, Oil loses its properties because of constant sitting in traffic at idle and start stops and what not.
Long service interval is one of the reason , that's why Fiat released a circular mentioning the same .Now the recommended service interval for MJD is 10,000 kms or 1 year . When i checked my car service history much of the service where done in or around 10,000 kilometers as the vehicle is serviced each year .Still am facing this issue .In my opinion many factors combined is causing this issue .Displacement vs weight factor ,Engine Mapping ,Long Service interval . If we check the past 5 year Fiat updates we can confirm this .Reduced service interval ,Changed engine mapping ,Turbo kick is gone and response in now linear ,combined to give better engine life

Last edited by justin.das : 22nd January 2015 at 17:18.
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Old 22nd January 2015, 17:45   #71
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Default Re: Fiat 90 BHP Engine .Timing chain issue & recall & Oil Consumption

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Originally Posted by justin.das View Post
Long service interval is one of the reason , that's why Fiat released a circular mentioning the same .Now the recommended service interval for MJD is 10,000 kms or 1 year . When i checked my car service history much of the service where done in or around 10,000 kilometers as the vehicle is serviced each year .Still am facing this issue .In my opinion many factors combined is causing this issue .Displacement vs weight factor ,Engine Mapping ,Long Service interval . If we check the past 5 year Fiat updates we can confirm this .Reduced service interval ,Changed engine mapping ,Turbo kick is gone and response in now linear ,combined to give better engine life
I am not sure of the below reasoning but this is my gut feeling.

The 1.3L MJD FGT which produces 75PS that is used in Swift, Ritz, Punto, Palio Stile, Enjoy, Sail, Vista. Now the internals that have been designed are for the 75PS power in picture.

What Fiat did was add a VGT to this making it produce 90PS with stock internals that was plonked in the Manza, Punto, SX4, Ertiga, Linea. Now the initial batches of the cars mainly the Fiat ones are observing this issue of oil consumption and timing chain troubles. With the frequent complaints received by Fiat specifically on the 90PS variant of the engine, they had to beef up the timing chain to counter-act the higher output from a smaller displacement engine. Now this beefed up timing chain needed to be supplemented hence the recall by Fiat for its cars.

If the above is true, why hasn't Maruti or Chevrolet or Tata do a recall or even diagnose a solution if their cars too have faced this issue.

Overall what I feel is 1.3L MJD is being killed by producing more power that it can handle. Looks like an abuse. The Manza, Ertiga and SX4 should have got a 1.6L MJD to keep things smoother and normal.

Coming to the service interval, Fiat said 15K kms whereas Maruti said 10K kms. With the same engine underneath how can there be a difference in the intervals? Is Maruti acting cautious or looting customers so that more cars drive-in for the service as compared to 15K interval.

Or, they did take into consideration the status of weather, traffic condition, running of the engine that an average Indians car would undergo hence to prolong the life the interval was made 10K kms.

More the time higher is the degradation of the oil so its life, functionality is gone making it of no use in protecting the engine and its components.

PS: It is just a thought that I had in my mind. Correct me if I am wrong guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by humyum View Post
Companies who have 15 thousand kilometer change intervals don't realize the ground reality. Every Fiat MJD or Diesel car sold in India is not a highway run car and no city car in India can be expected to last long with a 15-10 thousand service interval. Air filter gets chocked, Oil loses its properties because of constant sitting in traffic at idle and start stops and what not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FINTAIL View Post
With merely 20NM extra torque, and (200KG EXTRA WT), the Linea MJD has, in all honesty, just about adequate power. Nothing more, and absolutely nothing less. See the difference? Lugging around such weight is indeed tedious, as is evident.

Last edited by a4anurag : 22nd January 2015 at 17:46.
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Old 22nd January 2015, 18:10   #72
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

I think this member went through a similar issue :http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...e-rebuild.html

The member noticed oil consumption for a few thousand kms before noticing loss of power and finally a blue-ish exhaust. In that case, engine rebuild may be the last resort, unfortunately. Looks like a known issue with the MJD engine around the 60K mark.
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Old 22nd January 2015, 18:20   #73
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

Im yet to take my car to marikar engineers, kottayam for check up. But, before that Im uploading the bills of paid timing chain replacement and 75000 km service. Also attaching the result of diagnostic check up done at Hyson fiat, Cochin.
Also, please see the warranty start date and end date. It started 2 months before I took delivery of the car. I didnít even thought about buying a Linea back in October. I took delivery on 5th January 2010. How can it happen?
Attached Thumbnails
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Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall-2.jpg  

Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall-3.jpg  

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Old 23rd January 2015, 01:11   #74
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Default Re: Fiat 90 BHP Engine .Timing chain issue & recall & Oil Consumption

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Originally Posted by justin.das View Post
,Changed engine mapping ,Turbo kick is gone and response in now linear ,combined to give better engine life
That is because the older versions were Euro 3 and the latter one's are Euro 4. This was done to reduce the emissions, had no connection with Engine life at all. If Euro 3 was still in place, you would get the same Linea with the same turbo kick. This has not only happened to Linea, but all major models including the Swift, Manza, Punto etc when the Euro 4 came into place after Euro 3.

Anyway your case is quite unique as it is right now. You have none of the problems associated with oil consumption, but still have oil consumption. Like someone on top mentioned, try 15-40 Mobil Delvac Mx and see if anything changes. A thicker oil should definitely slow down consumption IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post

Overall what I feel is 1.3L MJD is being killed by producing more power that it can handle. Looks like an abuse. The Manza, Ertiga and SX4 should have got a 1.6L MJD to keep things smoother and normal.

Coming to the service interval, Fiat said 15K kms whereas Maruti said 10K kms. With the same engine underneath how can there be a difference in the intervals? Is Maruti acting cautious or looting customers so that more cars drive-in for the service as compared to 15K interval.
The DDIS is available in even more powerful avatars too than the one we get here and being used in many cars. Namely the 95 bhp version and the 105 bhp version. In modern era engines with greater control over injection and better engineering and with downsizing of engines being the norm these days, its perfectly within tolerances to find lower cc engines producing good power and torque.

Well companies reduce their service intervals to advertise supposedly lower maintenance costs and lesser visits to the service station to have a better marketing point over its rival. This happens at the cost of the longevity of the product. Its a general trend in India by people to conclude that a 70-80 thousand kilometer run car is old and has seen ample life to be sold. Mostly, cars with such stupidly long service intervals will see this age and kilometer before something seriously starts going wrong. In some cases, the bite is earlier and the 1st owner gets bitten leading to such cases.

In my opinion in a diesel car, if you clean your airfilter on time, change your oil in 5 to 7 thousand kilometers and make sure it's not overfilled, don't rev the car when its cold, change the coolant on time (so that the system inside does not rust), gearbox oil every 30 to 40 thousand km, your car will run forever before it needs any maintenance from the engine and gearbox point of view. Of course the customary bush change here and there, a suspension part once in a bluemoon is always there, a clutch change every 70 to 90 thousand kilometers, but nothing major will ever turn up in the vehicle.

Last edited by humyum : 23rd January 2015 at 01:13.
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Old 25th January 2015, 08:29   #75
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

A slight update from my side. I drained the oil and got it measured. It was approx 2.25ltrs. That means in the past 1700kms 1.75 litres oil got consumed.

Also im shocked to hear that there is still timing chain sound. This was told by a competent car service centre in my town. It is just 11700km from my last timing chain. I should suspect the quality of work at fiat dealerships. What is the way forward? Should I replace it again?
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