[joybhowmik]

I was reading this topic with passing interest the other day. But events of the last 12 hours, has me searching this thread and other threads referenced here without any real insights as to what could be wrong.

The event in question is this. I live in Delhi, and have a Santro Xing AT 2003 model - I am the first and only owner, and the car has been sparingly but lovingly driven. For last several weeks, the car was not driven (since about 3rd January). It was parked under a tree, with a car-cover on.

Today, I decided to try taking the car out but it would not start (around 7AM). I toyed with the idea of jump-starting it, but gave up and ended up calling Exide Batmobile. They diagnosed the battery needed charging after so many days of non-use, jump-started the car and left. I took the car out for some errands and returned after one hour. Car was continuously running during this time. On return, I turned off the ignition , and tried to start again. Click-click-click but engine would not fire up.

I called up the battery shop , and they sent over a stand-by battery and took away mine for charging (around 10 am). I started the car with this stand-by and took it to the main dealer (MGF-Okhla) for a much needed service (60000 kms) - this was anyway overdue for last 2 months. Anyhow, once I reached the dealership, I turned off the ignition. Within minutes the service technician showed up. When he tried to turn on the car , it would not start. I explained to him, that this is a stand-by battery, it is possible it has become weak. However he should test if the car starts with his own battery.

Later he reported that the car did not appear to have any electrical faults. He fitted the stand-by battery and arranged for the car to be sent back with his driver- who reached me in about 30 minutes (again 30 mins of continuous running). When this person reached he turned off the ignition, and again the car would not start.

Anyhow, the dealer's driver left, leaving my car stranded in the middle of the narrow lanes of our neighbourhood.
Now, I called the battery shop guy, and he sent over my original battery (now charged up). Now, the battery shop guy showed me a little spark when he connected the positive terminal (negative was previously connected) - car keys were in my pocket at the time.
Once my own battery was installed the car started up without any trouble.

I called up the main dealer service technician, and told him, how is it possible for a spark to come at the terminals, without the key turned in the ignition -his point was that it could be because the music system or central locking system could be in an always "on" state. The battery guy insisted, it must be a short in the wiring draining the battery. He told me, if I wanted to , he could disconnect the battery's positive terminal -so that at least the car could be started tomorrow morning. The upshot of this conversation, was that the service technician told me to leave the connections as is.... and if indeed the battery was being drained due to a short circuit, he would send someone over to jump-start the car and bring it back to the workshop in the morning.

Anyhow, the battery shop guy left, and I parked the car properly. Then I turned off the ignition. And my fears were indeed confirmed, the car would not start again.
I left the scene, sms'ed the service technician to send an electrician and a jumper cable in the morning.

Out of curiosity, I returned back to the spot after an hour. The car was cold by this time. I turned the key, and the engine roared to life without any hiccup.

I am confused . The only pattern I can figure out, is that the motor won't turn-over when warm, but will when relatively colder (on the same battery). Also , when warm, and fitted with a fully charged battery it does indeed turn-over. Thoughts running through my mind:
a) As the main dealer suggests, is it possible that my battery (bought 24th Jan 2011) and the stand-by battery are/were well-past their prime and it's time for a new battery?
b) Or - a) is not true. The battery is fine. but it is getting drained.
c) Or - a) and b) are both not true. There is a problem elsewhere - where?

[Jeroen]

Based on your description I trust the car shows all the signs of a dead battery, you turn the ignition and other than the relays clicking nothing happens. New battery and at least at first it starts immediately.

I would suggest checking the battery first. Any decent car workshop and or battery shop will have a battery tester that will give you an immediate readout whether the battery is ok, or is due for the replacement.

If the battery is ok, then it's time to check if it' gets properly charged. Again, very simple test, every workshop should have the appropriate equipment.

If the battery is ok and it gets charged, its time to figure out whether there might be a possible short circuit. Again, pretty easy to isolate to at least which electrical circuit. You need multimeter, know how to use and where to find the fuses in your car and pull each fuse one at the time, until you find the circuit which has the fault. From there on you need to start checking the various components. Again, isolating bit and pieces by pulling of the appropriate connectors will help homing in on the culprit.

Jeroen

[joybhowmik]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Based on your description I trust the car shows all the signs of a dead battery, you turn the ignition and other than the relays clicking nothing happens. New battery and at least at first it starts immediately.

I would suggest checking the battery first. Any decent car workshop and or battery shop will have a battery tester that will give you an immediate readout whether the battery is ok, or is due for the replacement.

Thanks Jeroen. Would tend to agree. If it was an electrical fault, then the car would not start in a couple of hours (after the battery had been left to lie for some time). Suggesting that the battery had recovered enough by dissipation of reaction products (around the anode/cathode) in that time?
The batmobile guys told me the specific gravity of the electrolyte was not right, hence needed a full-recharge ... perhaps another pointer that the battery is at fault.

But then, the confusing thing is - why would the same thing happen with the standby-battery - is it too much of a co-incidence that both my battery and the stand-by are past it. Or is there a problem with the alternator not charging up the battery? Or is there a drain problem.... perhaps the music system or the central locking/alarm or something much worse?

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by joybhowmik

Thanks Jeroen. Would tend to agree. If it was an electrical fault, then the car would not start in a couple of hours (after the battery had been left to lie for some time). Suggesting that the battery had recovered enough by dissipation of reaction products (around the anode/cathode) in that time?
The batmobile guys told me the specific gravity of the electrolyte was not right, hence needed a full-recharge ... perhaps another pointer that the battery is at fault.

But then, the confusing thing is - why would the same thing happen with the standby-battery - is it too much of a co-incidence that both my battery and the stand-by are past it. Or is there a problem with the alternator not charging up the battery? Or is there a drain problem.... perhaps the music system or the central locking/alarm or something much worse?

It could be co-incidence. As per my previous post, just go through these steps as they'll eliminate a possible cause step by step;

1) Check battery
2) Check charging
3) Check electrical circuits one by one.

Everything else is just guessing.

Even if the battery turns out to be the culprit, I would always check the charging as well. It's not unknown for the batteries to go wonky because of inadequate charging

Good luck with the trouble shooting

Jeroen

[manikjeet]

A little Background

I have a contessa car which i have around 6-7 months back converted to a diesel monster. I had all the work carried(overhualled) in one of the hottest months of the year.
Then the car use to start with 5 secs heater.

As the winter approached i started using my VW Polo more, due so the option of HVAC.
Now for 2 months i have starting problem with the engine. (contessa 4FD1)

I have all the glow plugs changed.

The engine will start normal with little effort when my mechanic makes the engine sniff petrol.

When i normally start the engine when cold it will sound a little heavy as something is holding it down. And it wouldn't start.

but few days back Chandigarh was 26 c and i just started the engine and it started normally and i even noticed that engine was not as slow during the morning or evening start.

The battery is brand new around 6 months old everything has been overhualed

I am pretty much at a stage where i am about to pull my hair. I like my cars to be ready to any where.And yes its having a good 25 l of fuel and its standing on level groound

[1self]

Diesels have a lot more compression & hence need stronger starter motors & more amps from the battery. Check starter motor & alternator...thoroughly. Also, check the ground wire connection from engine to body & body to battery.

[rajeev k]

How is the condition of the engine and the KMs covered? Check the engine compression and the engine oil consumption. I presume this because sniff of petrol make it start as petrol can ignite with lesser compression.

[manikjeet]

Originally Posted by 1self

Diesels have a lot more compression & hence need stronger starter motors & more amps from the battery. Check starter motor & alternator...thoroughly. Also, check the ground wire connection from engine to body & body to battery.

The battery is a 85 amps one and the starter has been overhualed as well the alternator. I will have the wires checked

Originally Posted by rajeev k

How is the condition of the engine and the KMs covered? Check the engine compression and the engine oil consumption. I presume this because sniff of petrol make it start as petrol can ignite with lesser compression.

The engine as been recently completely overhualled and oil is new as it has ran only 500 km after the overhualed

what i am suspecting is that the battery may have a bad cell and is not able to generate enough compression so start

[wild child]

Hello

Try checking/cleaning the diesel injectors and check the fuel filter and pump calibration. The starting problem may not be a "cold start" problem.
Also, eventhough you have rebuilt your engine, it is better to check for engine compression since the rings could have lost its property and hence the struggle.

Wishing for a speedy recovery.

Cheers
W_C

[manikjeet]

Note from Mod: There are several spelling & grammatical errors in your posts. This negatively affects the board experience for other readers.

Kindly ensure that you proof-read your posts prior to submission. Also, it would be a good idea to use spell-checkers.

[wild child]

Hi

In that case, try out the following

1. Switch ON the key and press the heater switch and keep it on for 30 sec approx and then release it. Do this for 2~3 times and see if it starts normally.

2. Are you using anti-freeze radiator fluid ? If not, then flush your radiator and get it filled with a proper fluid. If your radiator is currently filled with some coolant, then check for its minimum working temperature. FYI - Coolants and anti freeze solutions are different from each other and they do have a remarkable difference on your engine's performance.
To check if the radiator fluid is the culprit, before you go for a complete radiator flush, try pouring boiling hot water into the radiator and start the car after 30~45 secs. If the car starts, then you probably need to fill the radiator with anti freeze fluid. If not, then we shall start racking our brains again.

- W_C

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by joybhowmik

I am confused . The only pattern I can figure out, is that the motor won't turn-over when warm, but will when relatively colder (on the same battery). Also , when warm, and fitted with a fully charged battery it does indeed turn-over. Thoughts running through my mind:
a) As the main dealer suggests, is it possible that my battery (bought 24th Jan 2011) and the stand-by battery are/were well-past their prime and it's time for a new battery?
b) Or - a) is not true. The battery is fine. but it is getting drained.
c) Or - a) and b) are both not true. There is a problem elsewhere - where?

From what you have reported till now, a few thoughts and to-do's come to mind:

1. Is the battery draining out due to a short/something that continues to run in the car when you pull out the key? Use a multimeter to check for current drain from the battery, and how much. 200-300mA is fine, 500mA is acceptable, But anything more is likely to make a fully charged battery flat in a few hours.

2. Since you hear a click but the starter motor does not turn (especially when hot), it could be that the carbon brushes on the starter motor have worn down, and you need a stater motor service to get it back to normal again. It's 10 years old after all.

3. Check charging current and voltage at the battery terminals with a multimeter, with the engine running.

[Prowler]

I have some experience with Isuzu 4FB1 engines. First thing is check if the starter runs 'fast enough'. If the battery is not fully charged, the starter won't turn the engine at the required rpm. Most old Indirect injection engines require a fast enough starting.

I used to import Isuzu engines a long time ago. We always used a fully charged battery to test the engines. Once the charge comes down, the engines will take longer to start - damaging the glow plugs.

[TurboDiesel]

Hi Manikjeet,


I once encountered same problem with my 4FG1 engine of my Contessa in winters, which later came out as battery problem, so i first time opted AMARON tractor harvest series 90AH which eventually solved my problem with cold cranking.

Isuzu diesels require high amperage battery to get started in winters.


Turbodiesel

[CRDIsamir]

5 Seconds heater is too short for the old generation Isuzu diesel. It will require atleast 30 seconds of heating time. Make sure the heater plugs are genuine and not the locally manufactured ones.

Apart from this there should not be any major problem because now with slightly warm climate the engine is back to normal.

Regards

Samir