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Old 24th August 2020, 22:06   #31
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Default Re: Diesel DPF clogging due to short city commutes

I was searching about DPF queries related to Ford's 1.5 TDCi. There isn't much of a clear-cut mention of the same on the internet. Reached out to a number of owners in this forum but there was nothing clearly mentioned in the owner's manual as well.
In this entire process, I talked to a number of SAs too. What was discomforting, none of them had a clear idea about the technology. They knew that some emission filter is fitted, one needs to drive in higher speeds when it is clogged, nothing more than that. One even said that this technology comes only with Endeavour and not with the 1.5L. When the doctors are not much aware, one surely has to worry.

Anyways, I directly reached out to Ford with a set of questions. What's good was that they were prompt with their response. Here's what they had to say.

Diesel DPF clogging due to short city commutes-screenshot_2020082420382511.jpg

Diesel DPF clogging due to short city commutes-screenshot_2020082420383535.jpg

Note the point about driving 70% in on the highways and 30% in city. I feel this is absurd and asked for clarification on the same. Also, I have enquired about the price of DPF replacement. Let's see if they respond to that. What's also to be noted is that DPF is not covered under warranty if it fails due to improper regeneration.

I believe the manufacturers have been strangely silent about these BS6 modifications. They must be more proactive in informing buyers as it involves conscious efforts from drivers to keep their car system upto the mark (especially considering Indian traffic conditions). The majority of owners would be unaware of such a system and the associated driving behaviour and may end up burning a hole in their pockets.
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Old 24th August 2020, 22:24   #32
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Default Re: Tata Harrier Automatic vs Hyundai Creta vs Kia Seltos vs others

Quote:
Originally Posted by carthick1000 View Post
as from OP's post the top trim is preferred, which comes in either petrol MT, DCT or Diesel AT :
Yes Tech Line is not fully loaded. OP made his preference to have a GTX+ only in his last post, IVT doesn't come in that.

Btw, my reply was on your suggestion of a DCT for city usage which I felt was out of keeping.

Last edited by Bibendum90949 : 24th August 2020 at 22:29.
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Old 25th August 2020, 01:32   #33
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Default Re: Tata Harrier Automatic vs Hyundai Creta vs Kia Seltos vs others

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bibendum90949 View Post
Yes Tech Line is not fully loaded. OP made his preference to have a GTX+ only in his last post, IVT doesn't come in that.

Btw, my reply was on your suggestion of a DCT for city usage which I felt was out of keeping.
Usually when I read and reply on posts, I am curious why people ask a question. In the first post of this thread OP compared 2 specific models, which made me curious to check the brochure. Then, it was clear why he chose those models. So I sort of assumed even before his post mentioning GTX+, he is looking for top variant (Of course my assumption was right). Given his city usage, diesels may or may not reach engine optimum operating temperature everyday. Each OEM has a specific Engine tune and they do have different methods / expect operating cycles to trigger regeneration. Hence a diesel would be not very suitable IMHO. With this background I tried to answer in my previous posts why Petrol can be a better choice in his situation. Since CVT or Torque converter AT was not available on top variant, I have to suggest DCT. Also the 1.4 T-GDI engines (242Nm @1500rpm) can produce torque as close to 1.5 diesel engines (250Nm at 1500rpm), the normal gear hunting issues which happen with the MPFI petrol engines won't be there for these GDI engines.

I hope to have brought some clarity. It would not very thoughtful to suggest someone to choose a non-existing variant

Last edited by carthick1000 : 25th August 2020 at 01:59.
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Old 25th August 2020, 03:00   #34
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Default Re: Diesel DPF clogging due to short city commutes

Since this topic deals more about DPFs and regeneration, I would like to share a service bulletin from BMW that talks a bit about what is regeneration and how the regeneration can be done/triggered on a BMW diesel (esp. this bulletin focusses on E90 325d with the M57 inline straight 6 engines). Note that each OEM uses a different type of method to trigger regeneration, both continuous and periodic. Usually this is not revealed to the customer or provided in a user manual. The Engine management system takes care of these by itself, however if the conditions are not conducive the periodic regeneration might never occur, which results in a clogged DPF. This service bulletin should give some answers to why? how? and what? questions regarding DPFs.

This service bulletin is in German, but here I have attached the (crudely) translated link and the original document is attached to this post.

A short excerpt from complaint and root cause sections:

Complaint:
The customer complains about the Check Control message "Diesel particulate filter malfunction".
The following error codes are stored (one or more): <some error codes>

Root cause:
The diesel particulate filter is overloaded. The regeneration of the diesel particulate filter is prevented by the DDE.
The following cases can occur:
I.Incompatible software

II.The diesel particle filter is clogged due to the driving profile recently.Frequent short trips and city trips lead to a lower efficiency of the
Diesel particulate filter regeneration.

III.Engine failure
A short excerpt from the document about regeneration:

There are two types of regeneration:

1.Continuous regeneration:
This regeneration takes place during normal driving. At exhaust gas temperatures between 280-350 C, continuous regeneration takes place in the form of a slow oxidation process.The soot particles can only be burned when the required exhaust gas temperature has been reached.

2.Periodic regeneration:
The periodic regeneration is automatically activated by the DDE (Digital Diesel Electronics) after 1000 km (600 miles) at the latest carried out. The periodic regeneration already takes place in vehicles with many short journeys after 400-800 km (250-500 miles).For regeneration, the intake air is reduced by the throttle valve. One or two Post-injections are carried out. This increases the exhaust gas temperature to around 600 C.The soot is burned with the residual oxygen. Periodic regeneration is carried out at all speeds. The most efficient is that Regeneration at a constant speed greater than 60 km/h (38 mph) for 20-30 minutes.The DDE calculates the time for the periodic regeneration from the following values:
  • Check exhaust gas sensors:
  • Check the plausibility of the temperature sensors,
  • Check exhaust pressure sensor
  • average driving distance
  • average driving speed
  • Temperature in the diesel particle filter
  • Values ​​of the exhaust pressure sensor
The last successful regeneration can be read out via diagnosis.

The following conditions must be met for regeneration:
  • Engine temperature must be greater than 75 C
  • Exhaust gas temperature in front of the diesel particulate filter must be greater than 240 C
  • There must be enough fuel available (fuel reserve lamp does not light up). When the reserve lamp is lit, the regeneration is canceled.
  • No error codes from the air system, exhaust system and sensors may be stored in the DDE-the error codes 480A / 245700 (from F01) and 481A / 245800 (from F01) must have the status "momentary not available"shown
  • constant driving speed from about 60 km / h (about 38 mph). An optimum constant speed is about 100 km/h (about 60 mph)
Attached Files
File Type: pdf E90_M57N2_DPF-Servicehinweise.pdf (181.7 KB, 64 views)

Last edited by carthick1000 : 25th August 2020 at 03:02.
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Old 25th August 2020, 08:31   #35
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Default Re: Tata Harrier Automatic vs Hyundai Creta vs Kia Seltos vs others

Quote:
Originally Posted by carthick1000 View Post
In the first post of this thread OP compared 2 specific models, which made me curious to check the brochure. Then, it was clear why he chose those models.
I'm sorry buddy. Am I missing something here. OP was keen on knowing whether DCT petrol or Diesel (very first post of this thread) is preferred for predominantly city usage in the context of DPF issues. For both, predominant city usage and in DPF context, DCT isn't preferred.

When you said two specific models, are you referring to two type of transmissions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carthick1000 View Post
Since CVT or Torque converter AT was not available on top variant, I have to suggest DCT.
By the way, torque converter AT is indeed available in top variant, the GTX+ which incidentally is the priciest of all Seltos variants and is fully loaded in all respects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carthick1000 View Post
It would not very thoughtful to suggest someone to choose a non-existing variant
I still fail to get this. Anyways, this is going off topic now. He indicated GTX+ only in his last post. So my premise of suggesting IVT was only when you mentioned that you would prefer DCT if it's primarily city usage.(your reply - post#23)

While I replied to you mentioning IVT, at that point OP hasn't indicated his preference for GTX+. Hope this clears the air.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sv97 View Post
Had they launched the IVT in the GTX+ trim just like Hyundai did with the Creta it would have been my pick for those who drive predominantly in the city but want all the features as well.
I understand your predicament, many are facing this. In case they don't come up with a fully loaded IVT, your next best bet would be an AT Diesel in GTX+, DPF issues not withstanding. It's just a matter of taking the car for a hard spin once a while. With BS6 fuel in the fray, DPF issues are not as frequent as it was in BS4.

Last edited by Bibendum90949 : 25th August 2020 at 09:00.
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Old 26th August 2020, 14:34   #36
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Default Re: Diesel DPF clogging due to short city commutes

I have one question, It may seems stupid but, We moved to BS6 regulation in order to reduce our emissions and to make the environment cleaner. So if we are reducing our emission by filtering our exhaust gases and then later burning off the filtered particles by regeneration, what will be the net benefit to the environment.
Are we just postponding the emission from one time to another.?
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Old 26th August 2020, 15:04   #37
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Default Re: Diesel DPF clogging due to short city commutes

Quote:
Originally Posted by kar_thikr View Post
So if we are reducing our emission by filtering our exhaust gases and then later burning off the filtered particles by regeneration, what will be the net benefit to the environment.
Are we just postponding the emission from one time to another.?
No after burning off the particles they are no more polluting the environment as they are turned into by-products which are not harmful is what is my understanding.
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Old 20th November 2020, 19:25   #38
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Default Re: Diesel DPF clogging due to short city commutes

What about Gasoline Particulate Filters(GPF)? Do any or all of the cars with GDI engines come equipped with GPF. If so, does one need factor in similar passive/active regeneration for cars with GDI engines as well.
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Old 8th December 2020, 17:59   #39
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Default Re: Diesel DPF clogging due to short city commutes

Can you do a parked DPF regeneration in a Seltos?
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Old 2nd June 2021, 13:59   #40
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Default Re: Diesel DPF clogging due to short city commutes

Hi Everyone,

I have been reading a couple of threads on the forum and kind of tried various things after my car(Altroz Diesel) threw the DPF warning accompanied with Check Engine Light. Though I have not noticed a drop in the performance of the car, I did notice a drop in mileage when I first encountered the problem a month back.

During the first case, I tried DPF re-generation suggested by the manual and eventually the warning light disappeared, however after that Check Engine Light started behaving weird, it comes on for sometime, disappears and then reappears out of the blue. During the whole process, neither the performance nor the mileage took a hit. It was only my anxiety which drove me to visit the nearest TATA service station. The service station held my car for around 3 or 4 days, consulted with their team in Pune, have done a couple of regeneration cycles connecting to the ECU. However, after all this Check Engine Light was still switching on & off and I had to visit them again, it is then they have mentioned that there was some malfunction with the sensor(not sure what it is) and have changed it. The service center mentioned that I should not be getting this issue if I were to change the driving habits. From that point, I have only driven my car on longer ride exceeding 50Kms or more with a couple of shorter trips in the city.

Things were going well until yesterday, after the first incident, I drove my car for around 1200 Kms. Now again the DPF light is on along with the Check Engine Light. Since, I was on a highway yesterday while the DPF has come up, I tried the regeneration process suggested by the user manual. However, after trying that for more that 30 minutes the neither the DPF light nor the Check Engine light still doesn't go out. It is yesterday, I have also noticed something strange, the car doesn't go above 2500rpm on third gear(did not try this on 4th or 5th gear). Today morning, I have filled the fuel tank full and again tried DPF regeneration and nothing happened. However, I have noticed that the car simply wouldn't go above 2000rpm in the first run. This however was temporary and again on the run, the car simply wouldn't go above 2500rpm.

I am not sure, what to check or how to proceed further. The DPF light is still on along with the Check Engine Light, the car wouldn't go above 2500rpm or 70km/hr in 3rd gear .

Any suggestions will help on how to correct this or take this up with the service center.
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Old 2nd June 2021, 14:19   #41
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Default Re: Diesel DPF clogging due to short city commutes

Quote:
Originally Posted by kar_thikr View Post
I have one question, It may seems stupid but, We moved to BS6 regulation in order to reduce our emissions and to make the environment cleaner. So if we are reducing our emission by filtering our exhaust gases and then later burning off the filtered particles by regeneration, what will be the net benefit to the environment.
Are we just postponding the emission from one time to another.?
The DPF is intended to reduce pollution due to particulate matter, mostly soot which is a product of improper combustion of diesel due to various factors. In vehicles without DPF, it is visible in terms of black smoke which has been the observation in many cars. With DPF, these soot particles are stored and when the exhaust temperature crosses a certain level, the soot is burnt to form carbon dioxide.

The net benefit is that instead of soot particles which will affect your health, CO2 emissions are relatively less harmful. It is similar to how we use a catalytic converter to convert a poisonous Carbon Monoxide to a relatively safer Carbon Dioxide. Neither would reduce emissions itself but would give cleaner emissions.
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Old 3rd June 2021, 11:15   #42
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Default Re: Diesel DPF clogging due to short city commutes

Quote:
Originally Posted by gopalsunny View Post

Since, I was on a highway yesterday while the DPF has come up, I tried the regeneration process suggested by the user manual. However, after trying that for more that 30 minutes the neither the DPF light nor the Check Engine light still doesn't go out. It is yesterday, I have also noticed something strange, the car doesn't go above 2500rpm on third gear(did not try this on 4th or 5th gear). Today morning, I have filled the fuel tank full and again tried DPF regeneration and nothing happened. However, I have noticed that the car simply wouldn't go above 2000rpm in the first run. This however was temporary and again on the run, the car simply wouldn't go above 2500rpm.
The DPF regeneration happens when a defined amount of PM fills up the DPF chamber. Can you share here what procedure is mentioned in the users manual? There are normally 2 types of regeneration - standby regeneration (vehicle stationary), moving vehicle.

Sometimes when the regeneration does not happen on its own (due to some conditions being not fulfilled within the system), the system is subjected to what is called a "forced regeneration" using a Diagnostics tool from the manufacturer / dealer.

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Old 3rd June 2021, 11:52   #43
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Default Re: Diesel DPF clogging due to short city commutes

Please find the chronology of events below.

First Week of March - DPF & Check Engine Light comes on - Warning lights disappeared without any action from my side

Third Week of March - DPF & Check Engine Light comes on - Warning lights disappeared after I tried the regeneration process suggested by users manual.

Diesel DPF clogging due to short city commutes-dpf.png

24-Mar-2021 - Check Engine Light come on - Have given the car for servicing, Service center mentioned that there is no issue and they have cleared the error message from ECU and I should not be seeing it any more.

6 -Apr -2021 - I have again observed the issue and have dropped the car in the service station for further diagnosis.

From 6-Apr-2021 until 21-Apr-2021, I had been intimating the service center about the Check Engine Light issue and they were only clearing the error from the ECU(that is their version)

22-Apr-2021 - Around 7797Kms - I sat down with the technical person, got him connected to the ECU to perform DPF regeneration and there was a LNT regeneration in their laptop, got that done as well. All was fine and there were no warning messages on the dashboard. I have learnt that the service center changed LAMBDA sensor.

1-Jun-2021 - 9021Kms - The DPF & Check Engine Light again appeared, this time, because I was on an highway tried the method suggested in users manual, the fuel was low, however, ran the car for almost 30 minutes on 2000+ rpm but nothing changed the warning lights were on all the time. I suspected that this happened due the low fuel.

2-Jun-2021 - 9059Kms - Filled the fuel tank full - Again tried the regeneration process for more than 40 minutes this time but nothing changed. However, I noticed that this time, the car wouldn't go above 2500rpm on third gear. Overall I tried this process for an upward of 90kms.

Last edited by gopalsunny : 3rd June 2021 at 12:20.
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Old 3rd June 2021, 12:29   #44
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Default Re: Diesel DPF clogging due to short city commutes

Quote:
Originally Posted by gopalsunny View Post

Third Week of March - DPF & Check Engine Light comes on - Warning lights disappeared after I tried the regeneration process suggested by users manual.
But did regeneration happen?

Quote:
22-Apr-2021 - Around 7797Kms - I sat down with the technical person, got him connected to the ECU to perform DPF regeneration and there was a LNT regeneration in their laptop, got that done as well. All was fine and there were no warning messages on the dashboard.
Based on the OEM design, dealership can 'normally' check through their diagnostics tool following:

a) Last successful regeneration
b) How long did the last regeneration run
c) Time elapsed since last full regeneration
d) No. of unsuccessful regeneration attempts
e) Aborted regeneration

So if you can find this info and match through your timeline, you will be able to conclude if regeneration is happening in your car. Once you find this out, next step would be to find out why is it not happening. Answer to this would be the 'triggering conditions' which when fulfilled start the regeneration process.

Quote:
1-Jun-2021 - 9021Kms - The DPF & Check Engine Light again appeared, this time, because I was on an highway tried the method suggested in users manual, the fuel was low, however, ran the car for almost 30 minutes on 2000+ rpm but nothing changed the warning lights were on all the time. I suspected that this happened due the low fuel.
Seems regeneration didn't happen.

Quote:
2-Jun-2021 - 9059Kms - Filled the fuel tank full - Again tried the regeneration process for more than 40 minutes this time but nothing changed. However, I noticed that this time, the car wouldn't go above 2500rpm on third gear. Overall I tried this process for an upward of 90kms.
During these 40 minutes, lamp remained ON?

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Old 3rd June 2021, 15:51   #45
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Default Re: Diesel DPF clogging due to short city commutes

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
But did regeneration happen?
I assume the regeneration happened the first time around because there were no warning lights on the dashboard


Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Based on the OEM design, dealership can 'normally' check through their diagnostics tool following:

a) Last successful regeneration
b) How long did the last regeneration run
c) Time elapsed since last full regeneration
d) No. of unsuccessful regeneration attempts
e) Aborted regeneration
Thank you for these questions, I have connected with their team and will make sure they answer all these questions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
During these 40 minutes, lamp remained ON?
Yes, the lamps were on during the whole drive.
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