[Poitive]

Hi Guys,

Have been in the process of deciding a Diesel sedan. Started a thread under the What Car>Sedans section, but realized that the Test Drives I had taken belong to this section also. Checked with the mods, who asked me to start a new thread here.

The original/main thread of deciding the car is at:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/sedans...continued.html

Briefly: Need a spacious sedan, which is reliable, inexpensive and hassle free to maintain. Being fun to drive is a big bonus. Budget: approx 7L (had the Manza in mind), which I can extend to 8L or at-most 9L for something very special (Optra?).
(Note: I have a fairly large built)

The test drives were based on the above. Other details about purchase considerations can be found in the link above. The discussions about the purchase can be made on that thread.

Now for the Test Drives in the following posts. Most of them were taken about a couple of months back.

@Mods, for better organization (and links) am breaking down the 5 odd test drives to different posts. It is not for disregard to forum norms, but just for ease of reading.

[Poitive]

The Volkswagen Vento

The showroom staff was neatly presented. Formally and Well dressed. Seemed that if one let them, they would take forever to attend to you. Pressed a bit to get things moving.

Soon was in the Vento HL (even tough I was really only considering the TL version). The first thing that struck me was the somewhat cramped feeling in the cabin. The windscreen started pretty high. I personally like airy cabins. This surely wasn't one. The dark interiors didn't help any. The space on offer was also strictly moderate. Good sitting posture though.

The cabin design felt sedate. No brilliance here - designed to please all and offend none, is what I thought. Have read people apprecaiting the quality of the interiors and plastics etc. I didn't find anything special at all. To me, it didn't have a premium feel.

The car felt easy to drive. Not too large. Nimble enough for the city. The wide power band only made it easier to drive. Vibrations did filter into the cabin though. Liked the power delivery of the car, however didn't feel as smooth as I would have liked it. The suspension was a bit on the stiffer side. The car handled pretty well. There was a pretty assured feeling when one swerved the car to overtake. Felt quite composed at high speeds.

On returning back to the showroom, I tried sitting on the rear seat. I was aghast. I could not even sit straight on the rear seat (am 6'). Am not talking about how much space between my head and the ceiling. I simply could not sit straight! The headroom was that bad. The ingress and egress from the rear seat was terrible. The front was only a bit better.

Overall was a nice car to drive. Not brilliant. Neither the handling. Nor the ride. The cabin was not at all to my liking. A lot of people may buy this because of the VW badge. Or for the overall well rounded nature.

It didn't seem my cup of tea. Surely not a car for tall people.

[Poitive]

The Fiat Linea

Have always admired this car from the rear and side. Especially in the off-white and maroon/wine colors. To me, the front of the car only looked moderate, at best. The design flair didn't carry on to the front, but we usually end up seeing cars a lot more from the back than from the front.

Was a bit of a chore to get the showroom for a test drive. Finally managed it. The ingress was easy. Liked the stance of the car. The cabin and dash seemed to be overtly modern. Had mixed feelings about whether I liked it or not. I think I quite liked the look of it, though not the comfort levels. Like in many modern cars the central console was wide and a bit intrusive into the knee space; but that may change a lot from person to person, with one's built, sitting posture, seat adjustment etc. Overall the cabin was quite comfortable. Probably more than the Vento. Personally I wanted even more space. A lot more (mind was onto the Manza now).

The engine was not as silent as I had expected, but that may only have been an issue with my expectations. To start with, the car seemed a tad underpowered, but as one went to higher RPM's things changed quite radically. The engine felt alive (turbo in action). Getting onto more open roads and the fun started. One felt a connection with the car. Maybe a bit too much - the vibrations etc. did filter in quite a lot, however one also had a better feel of the road and how the car was interacting with it. A driver's car, is what I thought. The bumps did filter into the car quite a lot. The steering was precise. One felt in control. As the speeds increased, the sense of control significantly diminished. The gear changes were quite frequent.

Overall seemed like a very good driver's car. May tire you if you drive long as the the ride was only moderate and the vibrations did filter in significantly. But if you like to drive hard, I expect you would have a very satisfying experience.

Don't remember the rear seat experience, but don't think it was something too bad, otherwise I would have remembered it.

PS: The showroom staff was not presented well and didn't seem too professional either. However, since they were lesser "trained" they would share more of what they knew about the car, if one was friendly.

[Poitive]

The Tata Manza (Elan)

Before the test drives, this was the car on mind - the base choice. Had taken two different TD's of this. Am merging the info. and impressions together here.

The showroom staff again had a bit of a desi demeanor. Not too formal or trying to be high brow and not coming out as friendly semi-professional chaps. Quite like what one would expect from Tata.

Contrary to many, I have liked how this car looks from the back. If we can put the desi Tata name etc and associated biases aside, it did look rather good and a segment or so higher to me. Things change as one moved to the side. The part from the A pillar and behind looks rather nice. The front - well, it is as if it was plucked from a segment or two lower and fixed there . One the whole, I quite like how this car looks from the outside.

On entering the car, was quite impressed with the improvement Tata has made. Very impressed with the first look, probably because I had much lower expectations. On a closer look, there were some parts which were terrible in finish and appearance. The foot room was lesser than in the Older Indigo. Other than that, it felt very very spacious. The dash was quite pleasing. Not too dramatic like the Linea (or the New Fiesta), but simple and clean. The ICE display could have been a lot better though.

The seats were very comfortable. Lot of space. To me, it has seemed that many people don't really given enough significance to the sitting comfort in a car and worry too much about the gizmos and figures etc. No offense meant to anyone, but if one is sitting uncomfortably, one can't really enjoy the experience. But maybe that is just me.

The ingress and egress was very easy too. The doors opened wide, from what I recollect.

The driving experience to start with was a bit like the Linea (no surprise here). On revving a bit harder, the differences started to come out. It was not as sharp in handling. The suspension was a bit softer. Went on to drive it more like a normal work day (read not hard). Surprisingly it felt like a better car to be in than the Linea and even the Vento. A better day to day commuter. Quite easy to drive, though with more gear changes than one would have liked (the Vento scores here with the 1.6 engine).

I tried driving it a bit hard again and rushed a bit into corners. (Could try it only a bit, as the TD's were quite short). I was impressed. It was no whimp. Seemed like a good balance - a car good for everyday driving, and one which could be pushed a bit for enthusiastic driving, even though it wasn't really built for it.

What I really did miss was the space around the ABC pedals - the deal pedal, or the space to keep one's left foot. I liked the heavy body metal feel of the car. A lot of metal, especially for the price and it is still meant to be frugal. Was built closer to the American/European cars than the Jap/Korean ones.

All in all, it was a very good car with space to set up a SEZ , but needed frequent gear changes, which made it a tad bothersome to drive.

After the TD too, it remained a favorite. (more on the purchase dilemmas is on the thread linked in the first post).

[Poitive]

The Maruti SX4 Diesel


When the SX4 was introduced, I had liked it's robust looks. When I first sat in it and drove it then, it felt like a Corolla on a budget, though good only for 4 people. Over the years the design didn't seem to aga well. It started looking a bit too bland and lacked any sense of design flair. (No offense meant to anyone here. Just my perceptions)

The showroom staff was rather professional. Was a good balance between the VW and the Tata/Fiat lot. They guy had instructions only for very short test drives, so in the middle of the TD, had to speak to his senior to allow a TD a bit more than just 2-3 kms. (was eventually about 10 kms, I think).

Ingress and Egress from the car was excellent thanks to it's height. No Esteem like dramas here!

The cabin was spacious. At first look, seemed even bigger than the Manza, but later seemed about as big. The rear bench of the Manza was a lot better suited for 3 people though. The console was sedate, without being boring. Overall a nice feel, but a few minutes in the cabin, and it feels a bit less airy. The weird A pillar design starts to bother.

Without going into the stats, the SX4 always seemed like a fairly big car to me to run on a 1250cc engine. Had pretty low expectations on how it may drive. To my surprise, it didn't feel as scuffed-in-the-neck as I had imagined. The engine revved quite freely. Felt adequate. Well almost. After a few minutes, one realized that one was changing gears a bit too often, to keep the car on boil. It is an issue with all the 1.3MJD sedans, it seems. Blame the biggish bodies on a small engine. Like the other MJD sedans, the vibrations did come into the cabin here too. Probably a bit lesser.

It wasn't as sharp to handle as the Linea - no way. Didn't try too much with the car. Putting it in another way- to drive, it felt a bit like a bigger brother of the Manza. Fairly neutral on most aspects. Designed to have a broad base of customers.

A special mention - The blind spot because of the A pillar design was a very big hindrance, with my driving style. Driving this on winding hill roads made me sweat!

The built quality felt somewhere midway between the typical Jap/Korean and the European/American ones. A refined and slightly lighter Tata

The Maruti peace of mind is what may attract people to this one.

I was left wondering if I would want to spend about 1-1.5L extra to move from the Manza to this with very little benefit.

[amit_mechengg]

Originally Posted by Poitive

The Fiat Linea

The bumps did filter into the car quite a lot. The steering was precise. One felt in control. As the speeds increased, the sense of control significantly diminished. The gear changes were quite frequent.

May tire you if you drive long as the the ride was only moderate and the vibrations did filter in significantly.

shocked to read your review. either the test drive car was real bad or you were not in a good mood.

linea is one of the best handling car and whatever speeds you drive the control is all yours. the best steering provides the best road feel.
whenever my friends drive my linea they hear a beep, when they ask me what beep is that i have to tell them that you have exceeded the speed limit of 90 that i have set.

they are shocked to believe that they are driving at 90. one never feels that you are driving fast in linea. So confident is the feeling to drive her.

Gear Change- one car drive all day long in traffic on 3rd gear, highways is only matter of 4th and 5th gear.

Bumps and vibration- there are none, linea has one of the best suspension set ups.

underpowered- yeah she is, till you learn the art of mastering her with the turbo boost.

i suggest you drive a well maintained linea.

[Poitive]

The Optra Magnum TCDI (Diesel)

The Optra was a car one had seen on the roads for eons. Somehow never really crossed my mind as a serous choice for any of the purchases amongst family and friends all this while. At times, I wonder why.

I think this was the first car I test drove for this purchase, even though I am listing it towards the end in the posts. Happened to read an advertisement about the Optra at ~8.46L with a huge list of goodies mentioned.

Had contrasting experiences at the two Chevy showrooms I visited. One could barely care less. The other was very energetic and eager to please. A TD followed soon. On probing the sales guy told me the (which really was obvious, if had applied my mind before) that the features were of the more expensive models and the price of the cheaper one. He called it a marketing trick (which did work in my case, I must confess).

From the outside, the car felt quite neutral. Nothing special. Dated. A bit bigger than the others. However on the inside it felt a whole lot bigger than the others. It had a lower stance than all the others. The cabin was very airy. The dash design looked dated, though the overall finish was good. Pleasing, without any sense of style is what I'd say.

This car is clearly a segment or more higher than the other competitors, though old. It clearly showed out. The seats were very comfortable. Very. Preferred the higher stance of the Manza, especially for ingress and egress (which was fairly good in the Optra). However the seats, per se, were more comfortable in the Optra. Liked the centre armrest and the width on offer. Loved the space on offer.

Now we start and move on. From the inside, the car had a sense of presence, if you know what I mean. That it was clearly a much bigger car than the others one had test driven. And it moved like a bigger car (the 1370kgs were showing up). I have never really had an issue with Turbo lags of cars. So didn't have one here either. As we moved to slightly more open roads, it was a pleasure to rev this car gently. The torque could still be felt. No feeling of strain at all; just an assured torque pulling you ahead (the 2000 cc here, vs the 1250-1600 in others). It is an EXTREMELY smooth engine.

Soon I realized how I could barely feel any vibrations. It was also surprisingly quiet (forgot to notice the tyres). Excellent NVH management. Also noticed how the irregularities of the road were barely noticeable. Brilliant ride, I said to myself. Soon we are on an open stretch and I take this beast on. The famed surge pushing me back to the seat was surely there. I was floored, as I floored the pedal.

Even at high speeds, the car felt very composed and sure footed. Had that planted feeling (I guess the independent suspension and the weight would have a lot to do with it). Tried braking it quite hard. No swerves. Composed stop.

There was significant body roll. I expect it would be due to the softer suspension setup. But taking this further, the handling was a LOT better than what I would expect from such a soft suspension. Didn't have a sharp feeling, however surely had a very composed and predictable feeling from the little I pushed it. A VERY good balance of ride and handling for everyday use, still allowing one to have fun every now and then.

As one returned to the showroom, one was left wondering why this car wasn't a big hit and if I was missing something. Tried sitting behind the drivers seat (which was set as per my 6') and surprisingly, I could sit in acceptable comfort. The seat felt a tiny bit low though.

Overall a brilliant car, which looks a bit dated. The old dated designs did have their share of advantages though. Typically they are easier to reverse, have airy cabins without consoles that 'wrap' themselves around us, typically lower centre of gravity (better around corners). The boot, however is often smaller in such designs.

In the end, one was left drooling.
One was left wondering if one would want to plonk 1.5-2L extra on a car which may be discontinued in the near future, leaving a question mark on the spares availability.

PS: It was irritating to note that like the Vento, the indicators/wiper configuration was for left hand drives. Irritating that these manufacturers don't take us Indians seriously enough.

[Poitive]

Misc stuff

Guys, I may have missed out on some other aspects, which I will add as I remember them. Will also add the TD's of the Verna and Fiesta as and when I do the TDs. The old Verna and Fiesta were not really considered due to their tight cabins.

What I had written above is just based on the few minutes spent with the cars. Well more than a few in some cases. And they are just personal opinions. Don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings towards their loved cars.

Hope this helps T-Bhpians.

[libranof1987]

About the unavailability of spares for the Optra (in case it is discontinued); I drive a '05 Corsa and spares have not really been a problem actually.

Generally manufacturers ensure spares up to at least 10 years from date of discontinue, so that shouldn't bother you.

[specialist1968]

Originally Posted by Poitive

The Optra Magnum TCDI (Diesel)

The Optra was a car one had seen on the roads for eons. Somehow never really crossed my mind as a serous choice for any of the purchases amongst family and friends all this while. At times, I wonder why.

Great car indeed. Great interiors. Styled by legendary Italdesign! However, please do a spare parts price comparison (available elsewher for most of the models you considered so far elsewhere in the relevant forums of Team BHP) before taking a decision. While taking a TD of Verna and New Fiesta, try to extract the cost of spares like say Bumper assembly, Head light assembly, Tail light assembly, oil filter etc. etc. For example, the front bumper of new fluidic verna is reported to cost around 4k+, painting extra.

[visweshkalambur]

Poitive, nice write up. I purchased an Optra Magnum two months back. I did my checks and I understand that GM currently has no plans to discontinue the Optra. I can relate to you when you said "the handling was a LOT better than what I would expect from such a soft suspension. Didn't have a sharp feeling, however surely had a very composed and predictable feeling from the little I pushed it.". I was on the highway recently, i could take a pretty decent curve at 130 kmph without any fuss. If you refer to the thread "Best cars under 12lacs" by smartcat, most were surprised to see Optra Magnum top the charts for diesel cars. It was ranked 2 in the entire list. Its a car which gives you super value at the given price point with the only compromise being dated interior design (though not much can be said about the quality).

[travelwriter]

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

shocked to read your review. either the test drive car was real bad or you were not in a good mood.

linea is one of the best handling car and whatever speeds you drive the control is all yours. well maintained linea.

I agree with amit's comment here. I have tested Linea T-Jet against Optra Magnum and Cedia Sports. I found the T-jet impeccable on handling and manners. It might seem underpowered since it does not have the 'zip' when starting from standstill. But once you are in the third gear, then its better than most other cars.

By the way, if petrol is not an issue, then have a look at Cedia.

[Poitive]

Amit & Travelwriter, Not sure if it was communicated well enough. Besides other aspects, I did appreciate the handling of the Linea. More on my (a layman's) understanding of suspensions, handling and ride below.

Originally Posted by Poitive

The Fiat Linea

Getting onto more open roads and the fun started. One felt a connection with the car. Maybe a bit too much - the vibrations etc. did filter in quite a lot, however one also had a better feel of the road and how the car was interacting with it. A driver's car, is what I thought. The bumps did filter into the car quite a lot. The steering was precise. One felt in control. As the speeds increased, the sense of control significantly diminished. The gear changes were quite frequent.

Overall seemed like a very good driver's car. May tire you if you drive long as the the ride was only moderate and the vibrations did filter in significantly. But if you like to drive hard, I expect you would have a very satisfying experience.

Originally Posted by Poitive

The Tata Manza (Elan)

The driving experience to start with was a bit like the Linea (no surprise here). On revving a bit harder, the differences started to come out. It was not as sharp in handling. The suspension was a bit softer. Went on to drive it more like a normal work day (read not hard).

Originally Posted by Poitive

The Maruti SX4 Diesel

It wasn't as sharp to handle as the Linea - no way. Didn't try too much with the car. Putting it in another way- to drive, it felt a bit like a bigger brother of the Manza. Fairly neutral on most aspects. Designed to have a broad base of customers.

Originally Posted by Poitive

Misc stuff

What I had written above is just based on the few minutes spent with the cars. Well more than a few in some cases. And they are just personal opinions. Don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings towards their loved cars.

Hope this helps T-Bhpians.

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

shocked to read your review. either the test drive car was real bad or you were not in a good mood.

The dealership didn't seem serious about their business, so the car could be a neglected one, though there wasn't any obvious suggestion of it.

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

linea is one of the best handling car and whatever speeds you drive the control is all yours. the best steering provides the best road feel.

In two digit speeds - fully agree.
In three digit speeds - one still had the road feel, though it was not as planted as one may want. The Vento was probably similar. The Optra (similar in price, but really a segment higher) was a lot more planted, though it didn't feel sharp and didn't provide as much feedback.

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

whenever my friends drive my linea they hear a beep, when they ask me what beep is that i have to tell them that you have exceeded the speed limit of 90 that i have set.

they are shocked to believe that they are driving at 90. one never feels that you are driving fast in linea. So confident is the feeling to drive her.

Perception of speed has a lot to do with what one is used to driving, besides other factors like the road surface, sound and vibrations in the car, traffic around, etc. I too was a bit surprised to see the speedo - had expected the speed to be 10kmph lower than what I read.

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

Gear Change- one car drive all day long in traffic on 3rd gear, highways is only matter of 4th and 5th gear.

In the 20 odd minutes I spent with the car, it felt different. It may have to do with one's driving style and what one expects of the car. Fro me the gear changes was an issue with all the 1.3MJD sedans.

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

Bumps and vibration- there are none, linea has one of the best suspension set ups.

Mate, I felt it has very good handing. Not the best ride for sure. From what I tried, it is the Optra which is miles ahead of the rest. You may also want to go through smartcats ranking's thread for sedans under 12L. It mirrored my feeling about the Optra (best ride amongst 25 sedans under 12L).

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

underpowered- yeah she is, till you learn the art of mastering her with the turbo boost.

True. As one gets to know one's car, one finds out ways of extracting more out of it. I expect the Linea would be no different here. Just that it wasn't a strong point of the 1.3MJD sedans.

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

i suggest you drive a well maintained linea.

Point taken mate. I probably should try out another Linea, given the way that dealership was running. Even if the tyre pressure isn't right, it can make a hell of a difference in the experience. Now that I talk about it, I recollect I wanted to check the tyre pressure on the way back, as it seemed to be a bit higher than normal. Could not as there were repeated calls from the showroom to return ASAP. Now that one thinks of it, it may be the tyre pressure which may be the culprit!

Originally Posted by travelwriter

I agree with amit's comment here. I have tested Linea T-Jet against Optra Magnum and Cedia Sports. I found the T-jet impeccable on handling and manners. It might seem underpowered since it does not have the 'zip' when starting from standstill. But once you are in the third gear, then its better than most other cars.

About the Linea, it is all there above.

Originally Posted by travelwriter

By the way, if petrol is not an issue, then have a look at Cedia.

Have read a lot about the Cedia on this forum mate. But never even considered it as I really want a diesel. For the fuel savings and for the torque. For the power at a lower RPM.

Guys you made me work so hard on this post and u need to thank me for it

@Mods, the post was getting too long, so am breaking it into 3 parts for easier reading. Once again, not as a disregard to the norms, but only to make reading and linking simpler. In case u think right, please merge the following back to back posts.

[Poitive]

Suspensions - A layman's understanding:

Suspensions are designed/tuned for the kind of ride and handling one wants from the car.

By Ride I understand it absorbing undulations on the road and giving comfort to the occupants.

By Handing I understand the sense of control one feels while driving, which includes feedback and consequently obeying what the driver wants the car to do.

From what I have observed, within the same price band/segment, between ride and handling one would have to compromise one to get the other. In our list, the Linea is very good on the handling front. In the time I spend with the car, the ride didn't feel as good.

My list on the basis of handling:
Linea>Vento>Optra(relative improvement with speed)>Manza/SX4.

My list on the basis of ride:
Optra>Manza/SX4/Vento>Linea

Techies and experts may correct me here and explain this better. I would be eager to understand this better and learn more. (guys, try an use language which non-techies too can understand).

[hondacity]

I also had a chance to drive the sx4, vento, verna and linea back to back last weekend. Unfortunately the vento was a TL version and looked really out of shape , infact it was knocking badly in 3rd and 2nd gear at relatively good speed. I wanted to TD a Diesel which is the real superstar car but the showroom didnt have one .

Linea TD was a great experience with the super cool TJET engine and effortless high speed handling. The staff was courteous and very knowledgeable. The Linea ranks very high in my regard but for the poor design of the rear seat which makes an impossible fit for tall people. I wonder what FIAT was thinking while designing the rear seats.

Sx4 Diesel was a very usual experience with a typical Maruti feel. Having driven ritz diesel and swift diesel , I didnt notice much difference in the mid range performance.

Yes, the gearbox was super slick and so was the quiet engine noise , apart from that it disappoints in the cabin quality and any other innovative features. I will pass on this car since except the ground clearance advantage, the number of aces up SX4's sleeve don't add up .

Nevertheless, in the end the Verna stole the show and I would surely take another TD of the petrol version just to make sure if it is as good as ANHC or Fiesta. The sx (o) price is too good to be true and it wins hands down.

I would pick either the Petrol SX (O) or Diesel SX version if I do end up buying the Verna which looks extremely likely now.