[keyur]

Originally Posted by sumobom4

Hey Poitive!


Out of all the cars you have mentioned, I am yet to try the NFF and the Optra.

Anyway, if you are wondering why I am checking out these cars, let me tell you that I have no intention of buying any car for the next 3-4 years!

You should definitely try out the Optra - and just because you are not in the market for a car, you are one of the best persons to write a review, or just comments for that matter!

Originally Posted by Poitive

Verna (Fluidic) Test Drive (1.6 SX Diesel)



Note: Have exaggerated the odd thing in the write-up above (amusement part, prison cell etc.) just to make it for better reading. No offence meant to anyone, especially people who like this car. I have only tried to share my thoughts and experience with this car in an honest and balanced way.

I did a test drive of the Fluidic AFTER I purchased the Optra, as a requested comparison. That thread is now closed, so I am putting my comments in here - hope you don't mind.

----

I did write a response to this 4-5 hours back, but there was a small nagging thought troubling me since. Did I write the answer in all fairness or was it because I am overwhelmed by my Optra? Was I biased, and am I really being unfair to the Fluidic? Did I recollect my Fluidic test drive experience correctly or was I blinded by the Cruze (that was my option then)?

Finally, at around 7 in the evening, I could not stand it any longer. I got in my Optra and drove to the nearest Hyundai showroom (Kundan Hyundai, Nigdi). They were near to closing time, but the sales person was courteous enough to arrange for a test drive of the Crdi SX 1.6.

While they were making arrangements for the car, I took a peek at a petrol variant (base model). The base model is pretty dull - all the features that people look for are absent in the base model - no issue there, just mentioning it! The doors felt very light (an not in a good way). It had a clanky feel, not the thud! I thought maybe because it's the lower end, they have tried to skimp here as well...

The sales guy arrived and we went for the drive. I got into the car (the demo vehicle was a 1.6 Crdi SX)., shut the door - 'CLANK'. Opened the door, got out checked all the doors one by one - "CLANK, CLANK, CLANK". Where the heck is the 'THUD' - searched around, didn't find it . The doors are light - not in a good way - I realized that I was automatically comparing every thing with the Optra. The interiors felt decent, the integrated music system too looked good - it has usb, aux, bluetooth and the works. The seating was OK, not very good, no huge encompassing seats, no lumbar support. The window control buttons looked OK, the ORVM control looked shoddy. (As I am writing this, I am trying hard to make this sound softer, and am realizing that I am being too critical, but i can't mellow it anymore than I have - if you don't believe me, take the Optra for a TD, check these very points, then take the Verna for a TD and let me know)
I then remembered the comment about the camera, so I slotted the car into reverse - the rear view was visible in the rear view mirror (along with a marking grid to indicate the distance). The sales guy walked to and fro behind the vehicle at my request. There I noticed 2 things :

1. The video quality is not very good - the aftermarket rear view cameras I had seen earlier seemed much better. The camera itself looks very good, positioned nicely - tried cleaning it - no change in the video quality.
2. The car has reverse ultrasonic sensors as well. The display for these is near the speed console. This causes problems as I am not sure whether I should look at the speedo console or the rearview mirror while backing - they should have put the reverse distance display in the rearview mirror as well (like the aftermarket ones).

So, in my honest opinion, do not consider this as a point of comparison - 7-9K will get you a better aftermarket one.

All this time I had not started the car. So, as the next step, I started the car slotted it into first. That's when I realized that I just SHOULD NOT have driven down in my Optra for the test - it was just plain unfair!!

When the engine came to life, it made quite a bit of sound, not exactly a roar, just a loud sound (can't seem to describe it). I rolled the windows up. The sound subsided, but it definitely was not as silent as the Optra. The vibrations could be felt, and they didn't feel good. (I am ready to attribute this to the fact that it was a test drive vehicle, but it had done a total of 5000 odd kms, so shouldn't affect it that much)

Then I slotted the vehicle into first, butter smooth! So, I thought, the good part starts now. Released the clutch, hit the gas, the car moved ahead. Had to reverse it now, put the car into reverse - gear stuck - tried again - slotted - released clutch - just revved, no movement - slotted again hard - car moved! (ok, no minus points here, attributed to demo car).

Got the car out of the compound, took it to an open road, stopped the car.
Then started the car, put it into gear and let go - was expecting a part of the 265 Nm or a few of the 128 horses to start showing - nothing showed. The first gear is pretty dull - tried it multiple times. Slotted to second, the car showed some promise, but the VGT makes the curve straight. There seems to be no turbo lag - or rather, no turbo at all. (Again, I should not have driven here in the bloody Optra - it's a beast). Drove on, didn't find anything stimulating. It feels as if the car is for some reason not using all the horses. The car feels light on the curves at higher speeds, kinda shaky, due to which you don't feel like 'letting it go'. The rear suspension with the dual torsion bar helps to avoid the roll, but makes the rear suspension not very good. Bumps can be felt.
Now the handling. I am in two minds here. The car has an EPS, not a hydraulic power steering. This makes the steering very light and feather touch, but doesn't give you the feedback like the hydraulic. At higher speeds the steering gets shaky and does not feel very nice on curves. Though I feel that it is good for city driving.
By this time, I was pretty much bored, so pushed the vehicle into traffic. The car weaved well through traffic. The ride was uneventful. Brought it back. Parked it. Got out - CLANK, CLANK (you guessed it, shut the doors).
Opened the boot. Well, the boot has height, but not the length. Gave me a feeling that it's not much - but I may be wrong. Went to the back seat - got in. There is just about enough space. Not much leg room - just enough. Asked two guys to get in with me - it was cramped - and the seats are a bit odd, with three guys - well it's 'uncomfortable' - honestly this cannot be compared to the Optra's rear lounge.
My conscience was clear - crystal clear - now I can repeat 'yes, the Optra is a better bet than the Verna'.. - REALLY !
I got out of the rear seat, and guess what (you guessed right) CLANK!



OK, I am not saying that the Fluidic is not good. It is a good car by itself, just don't compare it with the Optra. There is no comparison on any fronts. It is best compared with the Fiesta or the Vento probably.


Here are the things where the Optra bettered the Fluidic :

1. THUD vs CLANK - The Optra gives a nice solid feeling, nice and heavy doors, heavy trunk lid, solid car. The Verna feels more like a toy car (sorry, but that's what I felt).
2. Engine - No discussion here.
3. Comfort - Both the front and rear seating don't compare in terms of comfort. Driver seat has a lumbar support. Big spacious seats, lots of leg room, and butt room as well. Excellent noise reduction, vibration damping etc. (And this I am saying for the Optra, he he)
4. Power - Loads and loads of power coupled with the stability.
5. Price (OTR) - Optra LS 9.3L vs Fluidic 1.6 SX 10.7. I think that you can load in all the gimmicks and more and still save a ton!

Anyways, I am happy that I put an effort into re-verifying my claim and am sleeping contented!!

---
Followup :
Got a call from Hyundai today. They said that the test-drive vehicle was not serviced when I had taken a TD. Now that they had serviced it, they wanted me to try it again.

Went for a TD.

Observations :

The engine noise and vibrations had reduced - felt better.
The car was more responsive. First gear response better.

Still clanks.
Lack of power is noticeable - all the horses are still not coming out of the stable!
Tried driving at 120. The vehicle was struggling at 120 in a flat road! Lack of power was obvious.

Again, the car seems to be a sound car, good for city driving, not so great on the highway. But for the price, it seems expensive. It would have been great at about a couple of lakhs cheaper.

[charthom]

@Keyur,

Thanks for the effort to TD the Verna. I had considered and rejected it outright.
I fully agree with you. At least you encountered decent sales people. The Hyundai dealership has become high headed it seems after the success of Verna.
Anyway your experience and account confirms the fact that the Optra is still a great car.

Thanks again for sharing.

[mkpiyengar]

@keyur,
Nicely written. Seems like the Verna is over-rated in terms of the power figures on paper, but does not translate that much in terms of driving experience.
Also, Optra Magnum 2.0 diesel has been a very good product overall, but for the dated looks( as perceived by some). Looks are personal opinion though.
Even the recent comparison in overdrive rates vento > verna > fiesta in the diesel comparo.

P.S: Honda city still rules as the best petrol sedan though !!

[Poitive]

Originally Posted by charthom

@Poitive,

What a great way to begin a day!

--------
So when is your Optra/Manza coming out?

Toyota is launching Etios Diesel in September. Please do check it out before final decision.

Thanks again mate. If my purchase isn't made till then, will check out the Etios Diesel, but it really isn't my cuppa tea. Somehow despite it's immense practicality, the Etios has almost zero appeal for me. Strangely, I think I'd prefer the Tata over the Toyota in this case (even writing this sounds strange - that is the image Toyota has made for itself!)

Originally Posted by ajay_satpute

Hey Poitive

I don't know why you felt like this. You have a great knack for writing stuff. Your reviews on all cars are perfectly unbaised and more from a layman's point of view which is what most people are looking forward when they enter TeamBHP.

So stop cribbing now and let the reviews flow in.

Cheers!

Thanks mate. Incidentally last night I glanced through my mails. Read one talking about asking me to apply for TD vehicles. At some (deep in the heart boy) level I was full of joy. But then on closer reading, realized that it seemed to be a mass mail to all the members of that forum .

Coming to the point- Why did I feel like this?
(I know I sound like a kid when I say the points below. But somewhere deep inside, aren't we all? - probably just too scared to express ourselves!! - Gosh! this is getting tooooooo philosophical, especially for an automotive forum!!!)

1. I neglected work and put in too much time on TBhp and especially this NFF report and was mad at myself. It got only worse on 'realizing' that I put in so much effort and don't even know whether people appreciate, or even read the stuff on this thread. That got to me and was the major reason.

2. There have been many many times, I have answered queries of people. At times at ample length. Occasionally even from my phone! And people don't even bother to acknowledge it - come on! How long does it take to press a 'thanks' button?!!

3. And on top of that, there was this funny question asked on the Spacious Diesel Sedans thread, which could be interpreted as mocking me. This was a tiny issue though.

But well, at the end of it, it was all well. Thanks to what the following posts expressed.

Originally Posted by keyur

I did a test drive of the Fluidic AFTER I purchased the Optra, as a requested comparison. That thread is now closed, so I am putting my comments in here - hope you don't mind.

Hey Keyur! You are one passionate Optra owner. You should head straight to the sister thread of this one which started with my purchase decision and moved onto a more general what car thread for this segment (see page 15 of that thread). Link in the first post of this thread. You could help many make a good decision.

As things are evolving, that thread has become a more Optra centric discussion and this is there for more general discussions in the segment.

-------

The post/TD above by Keyur was on a thread where the OP wanted to know which car to choose between the Fluidic and Optra. The post which triggered Keyur is linked here:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/sedans...ml#post2438585

@Keyur, On reading your posts, wanted to comment in the end, but that thread got closed. I really appreciate your passion and sense of fairness to take those two TD's.

If you keep the Optra aside, the engine did seem to be a strong point of the Fluidic. It is a good city car for many, but may not suit the needs of many a enthusiast. The segment leader for petrol for long, the ANHC too has a CLANKish feel (maybe not as bad), and it may not matter much to many.

In it's price segment, the Optra, however is in a class of it's own, for those who appreciate 'cars' than the gizmos that come with them.

[keyur]

Originally Posted by Poitive

Hey Keyur! You are one passionate Optra owner. You should head straight to the sister thread of this one which started with my purchase decision and moved onto a more general what car thread for this segment (see page 15 of that thread). Link in the first post of this thread. You could help many make a good decision.

Thanks Poitive. If you feel so, you may have this post moved to the appropriate thread, and leave a link here.
Eagerly waiting to see what car you decide upon!

[Poitive]

@Keyur, not an issue at all to have the post here either. Since I have seen you being as passionate about the Optra, thought that would be the place for more Optra-centric talk, which I guess you would love. And I expect, others on that thread would value your comments.

About my decision, it was made a long long time back (mentioned on pg 15 there). Optra or Manza. Hope I end up with the Optra With my love for this car and how I recommend it, I had even started putting disclaimers that I am not an Optra/GM salesman . I just want people to TD this car before giving it a miss. Heck to even remember it exists when they go out shopping cars!

[Poitive]

Announcement/Request

The threads in question
1. Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan upto 12L
2. This thread.

Reasons to keep the Sister threads separate

There has been the odd suggestion on threads and even by PM to consider merging the two threads.

Why this thread was started is mentioned in the OP

Have been in the process of deciding a Diesel sedan. Started a thread under the What Car>Sedans section, but realized that the Test Drives I had taken belong to this section also. Checked with the mods, who asked me to start a new thread here.

Some History now - How things went over time

As the discussion progressed on thread 1, more and more people kept getting involved. I got pretty clear about my decision, but it seemed that others too were referring to the thread (page 11 there) and thought that it would be a good idea to keep that thread running. Made a more formal announcement on page 15 there. The thread title, which was about a what car upto 8L and about if Optra would be discontinued was changed to it's present form.

Now after this, I tried to involve a more open discussion on other cars also. The thread just seemed to waver into nothing. Almost silent. And then as we got back to talking about the Optra, there was a lot of action (about page 16-17 IIRC). It seemed that most of the people following that thread were more interested in the Optra.

This thread was largely quiet. Probably because the OP mentioned that what car discussions can be on thread 1.

Now given the above, and the TD's already being on this thread, it made sense to do what I am suggesting below:

The way forward for the two sister threads

Despite the title, the thread 1 ( Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan upto 12L) could be more for Optra centric discussions, though we don't have to limit it to that - just a guiding principle.

This (Driven!) thread could be more for a more general talk about all the other cars. Comparisons between various cars would be good, as it could help members decide better. For people clearly not interested in the Optra, it may not make sense for people to go through as many pages (on the 38th now). Even though petrol wasn't the focus, if there are members who also want to discuss petrol cars (as happened above), we should not make it taboo to talk about petrol cars on the thread.

Of course, there will be some overlaps and that is fine. The above is only a guiding principal.

Hope the above system will be better for members in general.

@Mods, I didn't edit this into the previous post, as this seemed to deserve a separate post. Especially for the times when it may need to be linked.

[bansal98]

Originally Posted by keyur

Lack of power is noticeable - all the horses are still not coming out of the stable!
Tried driving at 120. The vehicle was struggling at 120 in a flat road! Lack of power was obvious.

I had recently taken a test drive of Verna diesel 1.6 and the car had no trouble reaching 130+ on flat roads. In fact, it was only when I looked at the speedometer that I realized how fast we were going. I think it could have gone even faster. The engine did not feel strained to me.

I guess must have been an issue with your TD vehicle. I understand Verna doesn't have as much power as Optra or Vento but it's certainly not that dismal.

[rock22]

Originally Posted by Poitive

Thanks for the generous praise rock22. How this car handles corners, may be of ample value in your case mate. Do check it out. Overall I wasn't convinced about it's value as I was expecting more from the motor. Do check if the power feels adequate on climbs with full load. Being in Haridwar, that should be a point of concern for you.

With that bold bit above, my collars just sprung up and don't come down at all!!! LOL

Hey Poitive, you deserve that mate ! I just noticed that within a span of just 3-4 months, you have added great value to the forum with your very useful 500+ posts on various threads

Regarding the handling of the NFF, of course I'd be checking that out in the TD, but am more or less convinced, with everyone at TBHP including your goodself praising it all around. I'm more concerned about the engine power and torque (petrol motor) - apart from the price factor which so far is looking to be a big deterrent, at least for me :(

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by rock22

Regarding the handling of the NFF, of course I'd be checking that out in the TD, but am more or less convinced, with everyone at TBHP including your goodself praising it all around. I'm more concerned about the engine power and torque (petrol motor) - apart from the price factor which so far is looking to be a big deterrent, at least for me :(

So Rock, are you going ahead with your booking? Let us know your thoughts after the TD

[Poitive]

Originally Posted by sumobom4

Hey Poitive!
First of all, awesome comparison between the different sedans. One actually feels like one is there on the TD with you. The main difference I can see as compared to the official reviews here is that yours seems to come from the heart (personal opinions, biases et al ) while the official ones are understandably neutral. Both help to gauge the overall car. 5 stars, obviously!

Thanks sumobom4! It is great if you felt that way (that you were TD it with me).

Even being compared with an official TD is a huge compliment. These are just TD reports and not really reviews. Typically time spent with a car on a TD was about 20-30 minutes. I tried to keep then unbiased. If I saw it with bias, I'd only talk about how good the Optra was as compared to the others .

Value of Test Drives and Reviews

As I was saying in the Spacious Diesel Sedans thread, the value of TDs and Reviews is very different. Reviews are by how experts feel the car and then present it in a very neutral way, based on their perceptions of what the readers would want to know. TDs are more personal experiences. How those 20-30 mins with the car felt. I usually don't bother about the features etc - those can be checked on brochures. I try to feel the car. Experience it. Remember that experience. And see if that is what I'd want on a more day to day basis.

A collection of TDs also tells us how various people are experiencing cars. That something which was very prominent to a reviewer may not be as bothersome to an individual. Like for me, I usually haven't had an issue with turbolag of cars, since I have had ample experience with diesels. Those sort of differences come out from Test Drives. Some things may come out as more bothersome than what a reviewer may have had. For me, it often is the knee-room. I found the NFF hugely better than the Fiesta Classic on that front.

Out of all the cars you have mentioned, I am yet to try the NFF and the Optra. I never knew about the Optra's price cut. When I TD'd the ANV, it was ok in the city but horrid on a clear stretch. Steering had very little feel at speed and the back seat was like being in a boat on a choppy sea! Vento was impressive but I felt it lacked the bells and whistles offered by the others. Plus, the hoity toity attitude irked me !

We seem to have similar impressions about the Verna. If you are looking at bells and whistles, Optra may not be for you. If you want a LOT of 'car' then look at it.

About Vento staffs attitude - try and look beyond that. The A$$ staff isn't as bad from what I read. Interaction with the sales staff is short term.

The body-roll of the Magnum can make one think of it as a poor handles. It is a lot better than that initial impression. My last TD of it linked here:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/sedans...ml#post2428423

SX4 was an oddball of sorts. Am always put off by its looks, which are quite confused, IMO. That leaves the Manza and the Linea. Manza was a decent drive and oh so spacious. And the back seat...oh what a back seat! Till now, my favourite back seat was that on the Amby, but now the Manza holds that crown! I could live there! But overall, it felt like a poor fat cousin of the Linea. The Linea was the most FTD out of all the cars mentioned here. I did give her a proper rip and she performed beautifully! In fact, she seemed to be more balanced than my Punto, which feels a tad unbalanced over potholes. Maybe the boot balancing things out?

I really couldn't see myself spending about 1.5L extra for the SX4, over the Manza for better A$$; also keeping the A pillar of SX4 in mind, especially on hill journeys.

Oh yes! Linea is fun. Though not at all as sharp and with lesser feedback, you may give the FTD crown to the Magnum after a TD.

Anyway, if you are wondering why I am checking out these cars, let me tell you that I have no intention of buying any car for the next 3-4 years!

Oh mate! You'll loose out on the Optra, it seems. But you may go for it's elder bro - the Cruze.

One only hopes that 3-4 years is enough time for FIAPL to plonk the 1.6 MJD in the Linea! Oh...the drool escapes from my mouth as I think about that!

That is the one which had a chance of wanting something in this segment over the Optra!

Originally Posted by bansal98

I had recently taken a test drive of Verna diesel 1.6 and the car had no trouble reaching 130+ on flat roads. In fact, it was only when I looked at the speedometer that I realized how fast we were going. I think it could have gone even faster. The engine did not feel strained to me.

I guess must have been an issue with your TD vehicle. I understand Verna doesn't have as much power as Optra or Vento but it's certainly not that dismal.

The engines of Optra and Verna have different sort of an appeal. I was very impressed with Verna's engine and am not at all surprised at the ease with which it reached 130. Was rather free revving. It was the handling over 80, steering and cabin at the rear which were letdowns. Lovely smooth engine this.

Optra has a more raw power appeal.

Originally Posted by rock22

Hey Poitive, you deserve that mate ! I just noticed that within a span of just 3-4 months, you have added great value to the forum with your very useful 500+ posts on various threads

Regarding the handling of the NFF, of course I'd be checking that out in the TD, but am more or less convinced, with everyone at TBHP including your goodself praising it all around. I'm more concerned about the engine power and torque (petrol motor) - apart from the price factor which so far is looking to be a big deterrent, at least for me :(

Thanks again rock22 You make me smile.

I know I am repeating this, that you don't fit in the typical Optra buyer, but would still ask you to take a TD of it. Some aspects of it (the feel, the engine, the raw power, the assured torque at low speeds, the huge space, the ergonomics, the very plush ride with the AWIS, the composure, the big car feel inside) can really make one forget about the other smaller issues with this car. It is not as petrol like to drive as some of the others, hence may take a bit of getting used to. And after that, it is pure joy! In short - do TD it mate, it may be a revelation for you, like it was for me.

[rock22]

Originally Posted by vb-san

So Rock, are you going ahead with your booking? Let us know your thoughts after the TD

Yes vb, I have so far not cancelled my booking... the dealer convinced me to put it on "hold" ! He said some discounts might be forthcoming during the festive season in October. Maybe but in any case I've put off my buying till that time !

In the meantime, I've again opened myself up to Vento highline petrol... would be taking another TD soon. With 14K corporate offer and free insurance, it seems not a bad deal (notwithstanding some interior issues...)

Originally Posted by Poitive

I know I am repeating this, that you don't fit in the typical Optra buyer, but would still ask you to take a TD of it. Some aspects of it (the feel, the engine, the raw power, the assured torque at low speeds, the huge space, the ergonomics, the very plush ride with the AWIS, the composure, the big car feel inside) can really make one forget about the other smaller issues with this car. It is not as petrol like to drive as some of the others, hence may take a bit of getting used to. And after that, it is pure joy! In short - do TD it mate, it may be a revelation for you, like it was for me.

Thanks for reminding me buddy ! My visit to Dehradun is planned for 6th August. With all the car showrooms in a row, plan to TD NFF, Optra and Vento

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by rock22

Yes vb, I have so far not cancelled my booking... the dealer convinced me to put it on "hold" ! He said some discounts might be forthcoming during the festive season in October. Maybe but in any case I've put off my buying till that time !

In the meantime, I've again opened myself up to Vento highline petrol... would be taking another TD soon. With 14K corporate offer and free insurance, it seems not a bad deal (notwithstanding some interior issues...)

Cool, and October is not quite far. Pretty good idea to buy time and weigh up more options.

Vento HL may look anemic on features when compared to competition, but I guess it has got almost all the required features to live on a daily basis. Check Noopster’s thread to know more about Vento Petrol HL

[Poitive]

Originally Posted by rock22

Thanks for reminding me buddy ! My visit to Dehradun is planned for 6th August. With all the car showrooms in a row, plan to TD NFF, Optra and Vento

rock22 (I prefer calling you rock, but then there are many other rocks on the forum) - Mate, you don't seem to be in the biggest rush. Hope you are aware of the Nissan Sunny coming up around Diwali with a petrol engine. Not sure if this has been mentioned before. BTW, some odd talk about it on the sister thread, though this would probably be a better place to discuss it.

ACI talks about this one. Should be more spacious than the NFF, Fluidic and also likely to be so than the Vento. IIRC it also mentioned a softer suspension setup. Wheelbase is more than the Optra and Corolla Altis IIRC. It may be worth doing some basic research on this one. It may have some headroom issues for tall people, on the rear seat, from what I can figure out based on it's pictures.

The Skoda Rapid is also on the cards - but then there is Skoda A$$!

[NoMind]

Originally Posted by Poitive

@NoMind - Mate I liked the Manza a lot. It was not as 'un-sporty' as the image seems to be. It actually was pretty good. A 10mm tyre upgrade too should help a lot. In case I don't go for the Optra, this is the likely choice, as it has been almost from the beginning (I need the space). Sheer VFM besides many other positives. The only place it seemed to lack on space was the foot-well. No dead pedal either.

The Optra LS at just over 9L OTR is a steal for a 2000cc car with AWIS etc. Please check the sister thread mentioned in the first post, as it talks a lot about the Optra.

I have talked on the phone to this owner of Manza who has extensively written about issues with left leaning issues. I was a little too shaken up by his ordeal to want to take a risk with this kind of Issue.

I talked to kropex in bangalore and sundaram motors has put up some numbers on their site.. Very strange but they quote an exshowroom price of 10 something and absolutely deny any price drops in the Optra.

It was a little like the Twilight Zone with me insisting that my good forum buddies have indeed bought the optra for 9.3. I really don't know what to make of it.
Any ideas ?