[Bulldogji]

Dear Anjan,


Currently, as long as your paper work is in order, at least in Maharashtra we have no issues and these cars can be driven as we please.


So what exactly has this draft done by way of helping??


What help are we talking about?/


The government with this proposed notification is not helping in the preservation are they? or am I missing something here?


All it seeks to do is to re register vintage cars and stop you from driving them regularly.

[anjan_c2007]

Originally Posted by Bulldogji

Dear Anjan,


Currently, as long as your paper work is in order, at least in Maharashtra we have no issues and these cars can be driven as we please.


So what exactly has this draft done by way of helping??


What help are we talking about?/


The government with this proposed notification is not helping in the preservation are they? or am I missing something here?


All it seeks to do is to re register vintage cars and stop you from driving them regularly.

The notification recognises our cars and bikes 50 years or older than 50 years as VINTAGE. (does not include three and six wheelers)
It exempts them from normal pollution tests and pollution certificates.
It entails payment of Rs 20,000 as fees for certification for a period of ten years.
It requires them to re-register with a number plate ( State - city code -VA- number) annhilating the older registration. Old RC books can be retained by owner.
It empowers a State Committee appointed by the Transport Commissioner's office comprising its own officials and member of a state recognised club to certify the car as fit for 10 years.
The car or bike must be original with its factory specifications to get certified by this committee.
It allows driving only for rallies, maintenance etc but has the phrase "NOT BE DRIVEN OR PLIED ON ROADS FOR REGULAR PURPOSES". This is draconian alongwith many other flaws, but the beauty of the draft notification is that it has recognised vintages as a separate class of motor vehicles.

Let us all join hands an represent to the Joint Secretary, MoRTH individually and through our Associations (BY both Regd POST AND E-MAIL) within 30 days from 12.12.2019.

I will discuss more points threadbare very soon.

[Bulldogji]

Basically this means a 1970 ambassador mark 2 or Fiat( assuming the rules come into place in 2020) which after passing fitness and pollution norms is currently used daily, now gets classified as a VINTAGE and cannot be a daily driver.


Do the authorities understand the definition of VINTAGE CARS??


We have already paid a life time tax on these cars, now we have to pay an additional 20 000 rupees every ten years for cars we cannot drive as we wish.



And who decides which car is not original and is as per factory specs?



What would happen in cases where you have updated specs for modern day driving?

Would it not be then that the owner is left to the whims and fancies of the committee certifying these aspects?


If an owner is not permitted to use his car as he wishes, he should be allowed to export.



Someone will ultimately move court on this issue.

Either allow me to have the freedom to drive my road legal car as and when I wish, or allow me to export as it is my personal property

[wbd8779]

This is the result of the Delhi gang lobbying the government to legalise thier recent imports , throughout the country we are able to drive classics normally if we have up to date documents . Rather than going to the NGT to get approvals for every event in NCR and take out their cars ( which is a pain ) , they have lobbied for this .

Short sighted , benefits few , but is being tomtommed like a game changer for the vintage community .

[srini1785]

To the above post : #MeToo.

I have two motorcycles, one is 67 and other is 78 and am able to ride them in bangalore legally since paper work is in order. Now, due to this new rule should i get it re registered and pay more road tax?. Not to mention that i don't want new registration plate and wish to retain the old three letter one for its charm.

Its probably, as pointed out earlier , done to benefit only the Delhi / NCR clubs which felt betrayed by the 15 year NGT rule. In that case, they could have approached the NGT and got an exemption as a special case only for the delhi region or am i missing something here.

[Bulldogji]

Finally some understand who was behind this and why.


thanks wbd 8779 and srini 1785

[ajay99]

Originally Posted by Bulldogji

Finally some understand who was behind this and why.


thanks wbd 8779 and srini 1785

It was understood to many on a cursory read of the notification itself who was behind it and who are the beneficiaries

[anjan_c2007]

The note from automobile journalist Mr Gautam Sen, Vice President, FIVA, Paris addresses many of our queries especially Mr Cama, me and other friends concerned :-

For enthusiasts of historic vehicles, the recent letter from the Ministry of Road Transport and Highways has spelled good tidings. Of course, the letter raises more questions than answers them, but at least the thinking in the government seems to be heading in the right direction. The fact that there are more than a billion automobiles on Planet Earth, contributing to almost 75 percent of carbon monoxide emissions, is a piece of data, which cannot be denied. In congested cities, automobiles could contribute to over half the emission in certain cases, and this is reflected in the fact that Indian cities are some of the most polluted in the world.
Most of the major cities of the world are instituting the concept of Low Emission Zones (LEZs) for their cities to bring down pollution and improve the deteriorating health situation of its citizens. This is brought about by restricting the use of vehicles, more specifically, the older ones, as they pollute more. For instance, Paris does not allow vehicles older than 20 years to ply in the city during peak hours – from 8am to 8pm during the five working days of the week.
Initially the plan was to ban the use of all vehicles above the age of 20 entirely, through the week. The Fédération Française des Véhicules d’Epoque (FFVE), which is the federation that unites all the clubs (979 of them), museums (46) and professionals (354) in France, as well as the enthusiasts (some 250,000 of them, owning over 800,000 vehicles), with the help of FIVA, approached the mayor of Paris. The mayor was also made aware of the fact that UNESCO had recognized FIVA as a non-governmental partner. After detailed discussions and representations, she was convinced that the ban should be, at most restricted to 12 hours (8am-8pm) per day, for the five working days of the week, when traffic is at its maximum.
The mayor of Paris, as well as most government authorities in Europe recognise that automobiles above the age of 30 years cannot be one, which is in use extensively, and thus realise that the extent to which historic vehicles pollute is indeed minuscule. At the same time, there are restrictions to vehicular age of commercial use automobiles: for instance, taxis in Paris cannot be more than seven years old. (Though the figure for Paris have never been computed, it may be worth noting that the population of the commercial use vehicles in Beijing used to be three percent, but contributed to 38 percent of vehicular pollution in that city. By electrifying this fleet, Beijing has been able to address its pollution problems markedly.)
FIVA and the historic vehicle movement in Europe realise that with LEZs cropping up everywhere, what would happen to vehicles between 20 and 30 years of age (all the cars between 1990 and 2000, for instance)? Many will migrate to the countryside. Otherwise, people will keep them in storage and use occasionally during weekends or out of the city. The German federation ADAC has managed to get a different classification and recognition for the 20-30 years-old vehicles as Youngtimers.
The 15-50 years gap in the Indian system – as proposed by the ministry – will be terrible for all historic vehicles in the 30-50 years lot, and a significant chunk of India’s historic vehicles are amongst them. Of course, when the phrase historic vehicles is used, it implies all vehicles which are more than 30 years of age, and by that definition would include all the early Maruti 800s, the Hindustan Contessas, the Standard 2000s, as well as Kinetic Hondas and Yamaha RX100s. In Europe, much greater importance has been for the vehicles manufactured within the country – these are the vehicles, which are truly historic for the country. Unfortunately, many of the elitist enthusiasts in India tend to dismiss our own history.
Though figures are not available it has been estimated that around 20 million vehicles are more than 15 years old, in India. Of these, it may not be amiss to assume that, at best, only five percent are more than 30 years of age, which would still be as many as a million cars and two-wheelers (the latter perhaps representing more than three quarters of the total). Yet the numbers for the total fleet, which is more than 50 years of age, probably falls to just 25,000, at most. Which would mean that as many as 975,000 vehicles are in peril.
It may be worth noting that in the United Kingdom, the population of historic vehicles, which are more than 30 years old, is 1.2 million, and is valued at £17.8 Billion (Rs 167,000 Crores)! Even if the worth of the historic vehicles in India is not a fraction of that, just imagine the opportunity lost cost of the 975,000 vehicles, which may get destroyed over the next few years? Most European countries, as well as the US (which has an estimated 25 million historic vehicles in the country) and several other nations recognise the importance and value of the world’s industrial history, and the fact that to keep these vehicles “alive” they need to be driven, even if occasionally. It is important for us as a nation to learn from them, and not from China, which has systematically destroyed its history at every level (something that they recognise today, even if it is too late for certain aspects).
The most important learning from Europe and the US is that to discuss, present and convince government and authorities, it is important to have one voice, one set of criteria and standards, one cohesive story to tell and explain, instead of a set of diverse, often contradictory, objectives and points of view. It is also important that the representation made to the government reflect the desires of every enthusiast, and not just that of a handful of the bigger collectors, as this hobby mustn’t be seen to be the exclusive preserve of the wealthiest. FIVA’s past president Patrick Rollet had just three historic vehicles. Tiddo Bresters, the new president has one better – he has four of them, but all are VW Beetles.
As of the time of writing this, we are still the world’s biggest democracy. A democratic representation of the wishes of the enthusiasts, with a democratic process followed in heeding and deciding on the rules and regulations of the use of historic vehicles may go a long way in bringing about an intelligent and sensible solution to preserving our motoring heritage. At the same time, address the serious issues of emission and the wellbeing of all Indian citizens.
- Gautam Sen

[anjan_c2007]

This is a representation to the Ministry of Road Transport and Highways, New Delhi, with reference to their draft notification no. RT/16017/2/2018-T dated 12.12.2019 for " Vintage Cars". The letter drafted by my friend Advocate Anand Parchure, an enthusiast, with the Sl. No. 8 added by me can be edited by individuals as desired as it will be in their respective names.

You may please send it to director-morth@gmail.com and jspb-morth@gov.in

Also please follow it up by sending it to the postal address by Registered Post so as to reach them by 11/01/2020

To,
The Joint Secretary,
Ministry of Transport and Highways,
Transport Bhavan,
1, Parliament Street,
New Delhi- 110001.
Dated
Subject: Suggestions/objections to the proposed amendment to the Central Motor Vehicle Rules,1989.
Sir,
I am a vintage motor vehicle enthusiast and having come across the notification dated 12.12.2019, proposing formulation of an order to be called as “The Regulation of Vintage Motor Vehicles Order 2019”, wish to register my objections/suggestions as under :
At the outset I appreciate the concern of the Ministry to regulate and prescribe guidelines for registration and effective utilization of vintage vehicles, which would also ensure protection of planet earth and prevention of pollution. It is however submitted that in order to achieve the said objective the said order is definitely laudable and however there is need to consider the following suggestions:
1. The proposed order fails to recognize privately registered trucks, buses, six wheelers and 3 wheelers. At the same time it completely ignores motorbikes, scooters and mopeds.
2. The order completely prohibits use of each vehicle on road on regular basis. It overlooks the fact that unless the vehicles are regularly used, they will not be kept in order and in operable condition. Restricting its use only on specified occasions would render the said vehicles useless and would expose the owner of such vehicles to harassment by R.T.O and Traffic Police.
3. The suggestion to appoint Vintage Motor State Committee is apparently superfluous and would empower them to act as super regulatory authority over and above the R.T.O authorities. This would give them unbridled, unchannelized and arbitrary powers to reject the registration of vehicles at their whims and fancies.
4. Assuming though not admitting that constitution of such committee is necessary, the Local Vintage Association should be given adequate representation excluding other private individuals from the said committee.
5. In so far as fitness test by such committee is concerned, they may be directed to consider that the vehicle is maintained in its basic/ original structure and modifications that may be necessary to make the vehicle operable may be ignored. The procedures to obtain a valid fitness certificate from the Motor Vehicles Department under extant laws needs to adhered to for future fitness tests. Since it is required, the spare parts of vintage vehicles are not available in India and procuring such parts (if available with manufacturer) from outside India would entail payment of astronomical duties. The said aspect therefore deserves consideration and relaxation.
6. The proposed requirement of having display of registration in a particular manner as suggested under the order is unworkable, particularly where such series are already allocated. Instead, the vintage vehicles can be allowed to maintain their original registration numbers but with a different colour combination. Use of different colour combination would make such vehicles distinctly notable and would make the registration procedure simple.
7. The registration fees prescribed to the tune of Rs 20,000 as blanket fee is also illusory and unworkable and also not pragmatic. The fee structure for a 10 year fitness can be as under:

Sr. No Amount of fees (in Rs.) Type of vehicles
1. 4,000 Trucks and Buses.
2. 3,000 Cars.
3. 1,500 Three wheelers.
4. 1,000 Two wheelers.

8. In this context, I am to also refer to the note from Mr Gautam Sen, Vice President, FIVA, Paris, (copy attached) dated 20/12/2019 also widely circulated in the media, who has expressed his concern over the neglect and apathy for the 15-50 year old motor vehicles in India by the officialdom and vintage elite alike. In many countries in Europe and in civilised western countries including the U.S., a 30 plus year old motor vehicle is regarded as “historic”. Those manufactured within our country are truly historic as industrial milestones, but we are generally apathetic towards the mass produced Indian motor vehicles. We fully concur with Mr Gautam Sen’s views when he says “In the United Kingdom, the population of historic vehicles, which are more than 30 years old, is 1.2 million, and is valued at £17.8 Billion (Rs 167,000 Crores)! Even if the worth of the historic vehicles in India is not a fraction of that, just imagine the opportunity lost cost of the 975,000 vehicles, which may get destroyed over the next few years? Most European countries, as well as the US (which has an estimated 25 million historic vehicles in the country) and several other nations recognise the importance and value of the world’s industrial history, and the fact that to keep these vehicles “alive” they need to be driven, even if occasionally. It is important for us as a nation to learn from them, and not from China, which has systematically destroyed its history at every level.”
I would hence like to add that by preserving the older motor vehicles that are 30 plus years old, not only are we creating a new class to add to our national wealth, but are also preserving our industrial history.
The proposed suggestions are made with a holistic approach and ensuring that rules and regulations are made in such a manner that the historic vehicles are preserved and heritage is nurtured.
I do hope and trust that the above suggestions would be taken into consideration in proper perspective to solely aim at the real essence of your notification dated 12.12.2019 for preserving our industrial heritage on wheels.

Yours faithfully

( N A M E )
Address

[anjan_c2007]

This is a survey being carried out by the oldest and much respected vintage association FIVA, based in Paris, France.FIVA stands for the Fédération Internationale des Véhicules Anciens which helps in protecting, preserving, promoting world motoring heritage and related culture. All owners with motor vehicles older than 20 plus years ( 20 plus year olds are called Young Timers) can participate in the survey. The purpose is to prepare a comprehensive, worldwide database, country wise to know the exact numbers of old surviving historic vehicles. Such a database will help in deducing the total value of such vehicles for a particular country. FIVA takes up matters like long term preservation and promotion measures and measures to make ownership more meaningful with the respective governments, if need be. So suppose if there is a scrappage policy that makes old automobile scrapping compulsory, FIVA's data can help the government understand the total loss of national assets of a certain value that could be colossal due to such policy measures.

For the U.K., present data available with FIVA shows that they have 1.2 million such vehicles worth £ 17.8 billion (Rs 167,000 crores). This will be updated with he present survey.The US has nearly 25 million such vehicles worth hundreds of billions of dollars.The US data is still not very well made available and we hope this survey will help complete the exercise.

Hence, please take up the survey which will be helpful to improve India's database.
Our Teambhpians abroad may also please take up the survey as the historic vehicle movement is for us all irrespective of a country's borders, as we love these beauties of ours.

Please click the UK flag to fill up the survey in English (country language) and so on as per the language preferred.

https://fiva.org/en/fiva-survey/?fbc...Ry_ejXvwpvHF0M

[anjan_c2007]

Some intimidating statements from the Union Transport Ministry to injure the sentiments of old car owners are being read/viewed in the media by us since the past few days. I have drafted and sent a representation to the PMO on 11.03.2021 against the proposed, draconian Green Tax and Hiked Fitness Fees. Would request all friends to send it to the PMO so that we can try to check the damage before it's done. We as enthusiasts may be able to save our 15-49 year old cars, but would like the others to survive, not scrapped out of frustration with unwanted the tax hikes.

The latest from 08.03.2021:-

https://m.economictimes.com/industry...w/81380750.cms

Please edit the text below in the box as per your choice. Since there is hardly anytime for finalisation of the Scrappage Policy (2 weeks from now as press reports say) , please send the representation immediately. The Babus do not realise that unless you encourage the younger cars to survive, that are a part of India's industrial and mechanical history, we are negatively acting against the interest of our automobile heritage and its preservation for posterity.

With this policy that comes with a devils guillotine, many later Ambassador Mark II's, all Mark 3's, Mark 4's, Deluxe's, Novas, many Classics, Grands, nearly all Contessas, Trekkers, all Premier Padminis, S1's, 137 D's, all Premier 118 NE's, 1.38 D's, Peugeot 309's/ GLD's, many later Jeeps, many later Mahindra CJ3B's, CJ 4A's , all CJ 500D's, many 540 DP's, all Armadas/ Grand's/ older Boleros, later Standard Heralds, all Gazels, all Standard 2000's, all Maruti SS 80's, all older SB 308's, all older Gypsys, Vans, Omnis, most Esteems and all 1000's, all Opel Astras, some Corsas, all Ford Escorts, almost all Daewoo Cielos, Matizs, all Mercedes W 124's and some more brands and models may face the axe. Not all owners are enthusiasts and out of frustration with the hiked taxes their cars may swiftly reach for the gallows. The targeted 20-49 year Indian made/ assembled old cars are mostly included in the above list.

That will be cruel as very few of these cars have endured through the decades to still survive and remain fit. Hence, please send even if you own only vintages that are 50 plus year or older cars and are safe now. This will be a great help for the car community as a whole.

The link to the PMO portal:-

You will have to please give particulars as desired. The category is Public Grievances.

https://pmopg.gov.in/pmocitizen/Grievancepmo.aspx

* Please enter Grievance Description upto 4000 characters
* Special characters like ^ [ ^ { } ` ~ | ^ & # ! \ [ \ ] < > ] $ are not allowed.

The representation :- (2759 characters only)

Respected Sir, I wish to thank the PMO for the voluntary vehicle scrappage policy, wherein 20 plus year old private cars will be only subject to scrapping if they are not able to meet the Automated Fitness Test criteria. A Green Tax levy and a hefty hike in Fitness Test Fees are being proposed by the Transport Ministry. Wish to inform you that the draconian hikes in such fees proposed are extremely regressive and will perturb, frustrate, create mental agony and disturb the financial and mental well being of most such old car owners who happen to be either daily wagers or from the lower middle class or retired senior citizens or enthusiasts who preserve their family jewels in most cases. The hefty hike in such taxes and the Green tax aims to compel many such old car owners from the above categories to opt for scrapping their prized possessions with a heavy heart. Many will not be able to buy replacements. Such coercive methods for people with limited sources of income are uncalled for and totally avoidable. Old cars are very sparingly used. A congregation of cars in a parking lot or in a traffic jam will show only five to ten percent of such cars. If old is replaced by new by some owners, the usage will go up five to ten fold resulting in pollution and spurt in fuel consumption and import bills. No civilized democracy in the world follows coercive policies for vehicle scrapping with such unreasonable taxes and hikes, making their ownership frustrating. China follows a compulsory vehicle scrapping policy, but are we to emulate China? Old cars have a financial valuation and are national wealth for any country. The United Kingdom has an estimated 1.2 billion, 30 year or older motor vehicles worth 17.8 billion UK pounds or Rs 167,000 crores. Other western democracies are in the process of determining their national wealth from older vehicles. Germany and UK have recognised 30 year or older motor vehicles and Young Timers and these are prized possessions for their owners. In Delhi where old cars have been scrapped, the pollution for 2019-20 and 2020-21 winter smog and AQI were the worst ever in history. The pollution due to private cars is only a fraction. The other causative factors need to be identified. Such policies should be people centric and not vested interest centric. I would be very happy if you can look into the matter and restrain the hikes in fitness fees and hefty Green Tax levies on old cars that would be very regressive and damaging to the owners. Scrapping should be voluntary and unfit vehicles need not be given fitness certificate. But coercion with regressive, exorbitant fees and taxes on ownership of old cars should not be a matter of government policy for its common people. Yours Respectfully,
(Name)

Dear Mods this post is already in a basic form at # 40 on this thread below. I ahve added a few paras here. For a wider circulation, I am taking the liberty to post it here. Thanks

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/vinta...ge-policy.html (Padminis, Ambassadors and the vehicle scrappage policy)

[anjan_c2007]

This quote is from a new post # 41 today by me on this thread. Do please go through the other posts here on this thread where members are discussing about the proposed tax hikes that will do irreparable damage to the well being of all 15 year plus old motor vehicles.

There is a draft representation in the post #1 on this thread. Do please edit/ modify as per your choice and send a mail to the designated mail id.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...er-cars-3.html (Representing against the new Re-registration & Fitness Tax hike proposals for older cars)

The post # 41

Our friends owning vintages may also please note that this draconian notification of 15/03 is applicable for any private motor vehicle that is older than 15 years. Hence 15 to 100 or 100 plus year old motor vehicles are all within the ambit of this draft notification. True, they are going to amend the Motor Vehicles Act and Central Motor Vehicles Rules for 50 plus year old vintages, but there is no such amendment done as of now whatsoever. Hence, if before 01.10.2021 no amendment in the laws/rules for vintages are effected, all 15 plus year old motor vehicles will face the HIKED FEE AXE.

[anjan_c2007]

Originally Posted by anjan_c2007

This quote is from a new post # 41 today by me on this thread. Do please go through the other posts here on this thread where members are discussing about the proposed tax hikes that will do irreparable damage to the well being of all 15 year plus old motor vehicles.

There is a draft representation in the post #1 on this thread. Do please edit/ modify as per your choice and send a mail to the designated mail id.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...er-cars-3.html (Representing against the new Re-registration & Fitness Tax hike proposals for older cars)

The post # 41

A soft reminder referring to post on the link provided in the trailing post here on this thread for friends who may have not sent the representation by now.

Do please edit the draft posted as desired but positively send the above mail to:-

comments-morth@gov.in

so as to reach the Ministry of Road Transport and Highways by the last date 13.04.2021.

[KartikeyaL]

The much awaited notification for Vintage and classic car has been published in the Gazette of India.

[anjan_c2007]

Originally Posted by KartikeyaL

The much awaited notification for Vintage and classic car has been published in the Gazette of India.

Basically they have kept all the older provisions as in the draft notification issued earlier.

The notification is valid for 50 year or older private vehicles.

-Registration will be in a new series of the respective state and city with the Vintage code VA to identify it as a vintage.

Numerous representations were sent to them to retain the existing registration numbers that have become an identity for each of these vehicles over the years. But they appear to be stubborn and have notified that a new registration plate with such a series is required.

-Registration will be initially valid for 10 yrs.

-Registration fee is Rs 20,000/- for 10 years and Reregistration fee is Rs 5000/- as stated in this notification.

It means that all two and four wheeler owners have to pay a common fee of Rs 20,000/- and there is no distinction between a Suvega moped and a Rolls Royce.

The worst part remaining intact is the usage criteria wherein it states in Sec 81 E that :-

81E. Restriction on uses. – Vintage Motor Vehicles shall not be driven or plied on the roads for regular purposes and shall not be used for any commercial purposes whatsoever.

All said and done, vintages get the official seal for preservation for the first time in India's history and have been recognised as such.