[Aaditto]

Hello,

This is a humble appeal for help – to all you highly-informed experts at Team-BHP.

But to begin with, thank you very much T-BHP moderators – for including me into this amazing community! I have been an avid reader of this forum for a number of years. And it feels great to be a part of it.

To introduce myself…

I hail from Kolkata, originally. I live and work in a remote rural area, in the district of Birbhum. And if I may quote my standard ‘social media’ introduction here… I am a wanderer, by nature... An artist, by training... A teacher & permaculturist, by profession.

This will be my first new thread here. Advance apologies for the lengthy post – I'll try and make it as detailed as possible, so that I can explain my situation better. In case you do not want to go through the whole post, here are the bullet points of my query :-

NEED HELP IN DECIDING THE BEST OPTION FOR A NEW – PETROL, MT – CROSSOVER/ CSUV / HATCHBACK CAR – WITHIN 10 LAKHS (On-Road price, Kolkata, West Bengal) – which can be stretched up a little, if justified.

It will be used by my family of two adults and a 7-year old (with an occasional addition of 2 more family members).

• The car will work mostly in rural areas – with a monthly trip (or two) into the city, which is c. 200 kms away – travelling mostly over super-expressways (i.e. 400 kms to-and-from, on highways, each month).

• It will not have heavy commute on a daily basis, either in it’s usual rural surroundings, or during the occasional trip into Kolkata (one of the most congested cities – where I generally prefer public transport)

• During local commute, the car will often have to negotiate really bad dirt roods (village access roads in Bengal can be quite an off-road experience!)

• However, we hope to go for at least one yearly family vacation in it (petrol prices be damned!) – and our favourite haunt is usually the hills (Himalayan foothills) to the North-East of our State

• I am a careful driver – who also enjoys driving – and takes pride in optimised use of the right foot.

I do not race up to a red traffic-signal.

But I neither do I believe in ‘carefully’ cruising at 80 kmph on a highway – where I regularly hit 100-110 kmph in my 29-year old Maruti 800 – taking on every ‘new-age’ vehicle, with a sloppy driver behind the wheel, who might block my path!

• I need the car to have/ be –
o Reliable
o Sturdy
o Comfortable – from a suspension point of view
o Good ground clearance – village roads worthy
o Longevity – I won’t be changing it for a new one in the next hundred years
o Decent mileage – my economic standing is strictly middle-class
o Grounded – I enjoy cars with good traction
o Good throttle response

• I don’t need the car to have/ be
o Super-charged with ‘features’
o Turbo charged engine – I prefer NA engines
o Fitted with a sun-roof (in fact, I’d prefer if it does not have one)
o Any other ‘fringe benefit’ that does not affect the vehicle as such

However, there is one specific ‘feature’ – which would be very helpful to have. That is a HEIGHT ADJUSTABLE DRIVER SEAT. I am just 5’6” tall – and most of the modern cars don’t seem to offer as clear a view of the left corner of the bonnet as the cars of old did!

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My Background

I am 50 years old (though I often get confused, and believe that I am really 30!). I learnt driving at an young age – in a second-hand Standard 8 (a tiny, Morris Minor like car, which was discontinued in the late 1950’s) – by observing my father, an expert but rash driver – and my mother, an expert and copybook driver.

However, my whole family was a stickler for rules – as am I. Of course, my father refused to let me drive out in the roads without a license. So, for two years, I could only drive in my mind, sitting in the co-passenger’s seat. Once I turned 18, and got my license, I started driving my grandmother’s Maruti Suzuki 800 (Second Generation - 1993 registration) – which is the car I still drive.

For the past seventeen years, I have been living and working at our family-owned rural-action project – in a backward and rather wild area of West Bengal. This project owns a Maruti Suzuki Gypsy (“MG 410” – 1991) & also a Maruti Omni (2001 registration) – and, of course, I have been entrusted with maintaining – and driving – both these relics!

Old as they may be, all these three cars have performed beyond expectation, over the years.

The Maruti 800 (registered in my Grandmother’s name) gives me an average of 15-18 kmpl and runs nonchalantly at 100-110 kmph speeds (the engine can still go up to 120 quite easily, it’s the suspension and breaks that I don’t trust anymore) – but its just too damned old now! The local PVD is not going to allow a change-of-name (I checked!). So, once the present ‘Fitness’ expires, in 2023, I will have no option but to ‘scrap’ that little darling of ours!

The Gypsy (owned by the Project I run) still pulls a quintal of logs over rough terrain, with disdain, and has actually pulled out a tractor once, which had broken down in mud.

Having been with these three Marutis for so long – and given their performance over the years – I have probably become a bit biased towards the company, when it comes to reliability!

However, I am not an ostrich. I know that many of the other companies around today would be just as reliable, or better even, when it comes to making a quality vehicle. But do they have a comparable service network/ low maintenance costs? I am not clear in that area yet.

So basically, in my 32-years of driving, I have only been with very old Maruti vehicles. And I have never owned a car myself. I do own a Suzuki Fiero 150cc motorcycle – which I bought in Delhi, 20+ years ago.

WE ARE NOT AN AFFLUENT FAMILY. In fact, we are a family of freaks, who have deliberately desisted from pursuing wealth, and chosen to spend our lives trying to work at the grassroots, alongside the really poor but amazing people of rural India – for the past 40 years or so.

However, I have suddenly come upon some ‘one-time-wealth’, by way of selling a small flat, after the demise of both my parents and my grandmother – over the past few years. So, that is how I have arrived at this point – where I have decided to ‘pamper’ myself, for once – and start owning a car – and a ‘proper’ one at that! But even if I have the ‘one-time-funds’ to start dreaming about a ‘good car’ – I have to bear in mind that my day-to-day economic position will not allow me the luxury of owning a high-maintenance vehicle, in the long run!

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Was that too much detail to share on a public forum? I hope no one found it inappropriate – if you did, please accept my sincere apologies! The thing is, I believe that my background – in life, generally, as well as with cars – has a lot to do with the ‘right choice’ of a new car – that fits me.

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What do I want from the vehicle – and why?

• A sturdy body: Not just in terms of tensile strength, durability is the greater requirement here. It needs to last long, without paint peeling off, rust forming under the hood, or plastic parts coming loose within a few years. I intend to live with the car for the rest of my driving-life – say a 10-15 year period.
• A responsive engine: Not the ‘turbo-charged’ variety. In fact, I would prefer a Naturally Aspirated engine. I don’t have any intention of drag-racing with it – but it needs to be responsive enough so that high speed overtakes don’t become a drag!

The way I understand it, the simpler the design is, the better a machine functions.

I can understand the requirement of turbo boost on the race track. But I really don’t see the point of it, in the given Indian road conditions. Also, the turbo mechanism is complicating the combustion that much more – and with the dusty as well as hot and humid conditions of our country, I think it is recipe for complications, over a longer period of time.

• Comfortable suspension & good ground clearance: The car will do quite a bit of dirt road travel. Also, the city as well as highway road conditions in our State are atrocious! I don’t like bumpy rides. Some of the CSUV’s that I have recently done TD with – such as the Hyundai Venue – have really hard suspension. While that is quite nice at high speeds, on our potholed village-roads, the ride was unbelievably jarring!

The highway-connectors that I travel over regularly are dotted with ‘locally commissioned’ speed breakers – which we refer to as Himalayan ranges. They can be a serious challenge, as well as a hazard, for a car without sufficient ground clearance. The same goes for the dirt-roods in the rural areas where we live for more than 9-months in a year. Lack of maintenance and tractor-travel can create craters that will challenge anything short of a

• Good traction: I don’t like light cars. I like cars that feel grounded. Even though it is very convenient to have a small turning radius, especially in our cities, I still prefer cars with longer wheel-base – simply because they feel comparatively more rooted.

• Decent mileage: An average of 18 kmpl would be amazing – but I can live with 15 kmpl. Anything below that would be a strain.


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Cars I have shortlisted – done TD with – awaiting TD
PLEASE SEE ATTACHMENT AT THE BOTTOM

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My reactions to some of the TD’ed vehicles in the above list (added as attachment at the end) – the ones that impressed – in ascending order of liking

1. Hyundai Venue –
Like –
• Smooth engine & transmission
• Responsiveness
• Excellent ground clearance
• Looks – especially the rear
• Interiors & features

Dislike –
• Stiff suspension – extremely bumpy on potholed dirt-road
• Lack of traction – at higher speeds on the highway
• Too light steering
• The odd bulge over the front mudguards – I think that mars the otherwise smart look of the car
• The width (and ‘boxyness’) of the design[/indent]

2. Honda WR-V –
Like –
• Excellent suspension
• Smooth engine & transmission
• Relatively narrower design – less of a boxy SUV, more a Crossover
• Nice traction
• Plush interiors & features – love the driver’s cup holder on the dash![/indent]
Dislike –
• Remarkable lack of responsiveness of the engine at the lower end
• Design – especially the front view – with the slightly upturned extremities of the headlight – makes is a little too ‘fruity’ for my liking
• Only two variants – so, the upper variant, which is much more plush, forces the sunroof – which I want to avoid

3. Mahindra XUV 300 –
Like –
• Excellent engine & transmission
• Smooth suspension
• Excellent ground clearance
• 5-star NCAP rating
• Nice traction
• Plush interiors

Dislike –
• High price – only the base variant is within my budget – which leaves out the rear wiper
• The width (and ‘boxyness’) of the design – too bulky for city traffic
• The general design/ look – not very appealing to me

13. Maruti Suzuki S-Cross –
Like –
• Excellent suspension – butter smooth, even over potholed dirt roads, at a pretty high speed
• First class traction – thanks to long wheelbase & vehicle weight
• Great looks (exterior) – contrary to the popular dislike for its design, I actually like its looks the most, in its current avatar – among all the other SUVs / Crossovers.
• Smooth engine & transmission
• Relatively narrower design – less of a boxy SUV, more a Crossover
• Disk breaks all around
• Tilt and Telescopic Steering
• Quite tall gearing – even when I tried 4th gear at 30 kmph / 5th gear at 40 kmph – the engine seemed to be totally composed
• Plusher interiors & features – compared to other Marutis – thanks to the Nexa branding
• ‘Maruti’ reliability

Dislike –
• Noticeably poor mid-range response of the engine – along with excessive engine noise at that slot. The car sails effortlessly from 0 – 60 kmph… again, after 80 kmph, the response is good enough. But it suffers quite evidently, if you try to pick up speed quickly, between 60 – 80 kmph
• Turning radius of 5.5 mts is worrisome, especially in a congested city
• Just a little too long for comfort, in cities. Would have been happier if it was actually a sub-4 mts vehicle.
• Interiors and features are not as refined as most of the other cars in the range
• LED headlamps not available even in the Zeta variety – which is already just beyond my budget – and where the vital “Driver Seat Height Adjuster” feature starts
• The Alpha variety is too enticing, in terms of finish and features – but its too expensive

Various quandaries

1. I have a mechanic friend, who worked as a Grade-A mechanic at a Maruti Service Centre for many years, and then started a very successful local workshop of his own. He is a truly expert mechanic, with lots of experience and a very good sense.

When I asked for his advise, specifically about moving away from Maruti as a brand, he categorically mentioned that I should not venture into TATA & Renault vehicles – while the Mahindras, & Hyundais were fine. In his opinion – those two brands are not trustworthy in the long haul. But I see that the new TATA CSUV’s are amongst the highest rated and very popular vehicle in the market today!

So, should I disregard the warning of my mechanic friend?

2. How reliable – in terms of after-sales service/ service network/ reliability/ durability – are brands (Indian versions) such as –

o Nissan
o Ford
o Renault
o Skoda
o MG
o Kia

3. Should I be looking at – do TD’s – for some of the cars I have left out in my initial shortlist? Such as –

o Ford Eco Sport (the low mileage is a worry – and also that it is dated)
o Skoda Kushak (after sales / cost of parts / maintenance worries?)
o Hyundai Creta (I would only be able to afford the base variant)
o MG Astor (again, could afford only the base variant / also, service network and maintenance worries?)
o Kia Sonnet / Seltos (tried repeatedly for Sonnet TD – both with our local small-town dealer, as well as in Kolkata – they just couldn’t manage to organise a TD with a Petrol-MT variant! Also, do they have their act together with service networks?)
o Renault Kwid Climber (the Petrol - 1.0 MT DT engine?) ?)
o Mahindra KUV 100 (can’t say I am too happy with it’s look!)
o Even the Hyundai i10 Nios (which is actually one of my early favourites, from the new crop of cars – and I have left it out so far only because of it’s super-low ground clearance)

4. Given the serious requirement for ground clearance, with my high rate of village/ dirt road travel – should I just stick to the CSUV / Crossovers – or is it actually worth checking out some of the Premium Hatchbacks too?[/indent]
My ‘TOP CHOICE’, at the moment – and some trepidation around it –

MARUTI SUZUKI S-CROSS

• The “2022 upgrade” is around the corner. I DON’T like that look at all – since I really like the look of the present avatar. But once the NEW DESIGN arrives, will it become that much harder to find parts (body) for the older one?
• The 4300 mm length – how much of a bother will that be in the congested traffic of Kolkata? (Eagerly waiting to do the 2nd TD in the city)
• The ARAI rated mileage of 18.55 (MT) – is that going to be achievable in real life (of course, provided proper driving habits)

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Once again, apologies for the extensive post. I guess it’s my middle-aged, middle-class panic at work! It’s a lot of money for us – the temporary riches notwithstanding! I desperately need to get the call absolutely right – since this will be the first as well as the last time I will be doing this. A wrong call now, and I’ll be cursing myself for the rest of my life…

Thanks in advance, for any and every help from all you experts out there!

[boniver]

Just one point: since you're only looking at petrol cars, I doubt any of them will be able to deliver 15kmpl in non-highway conditions on a daily basis. Petrol Hyundais that I've driven struggled to give above 10-11kmpl in urban and sub urban conditions.

The only car I actually like in your list is the S-Cross, however, I'm not experienced enough to say it's the best one. All the best, and hope you take the right decision.

[nik0502]

Hello Sir,

Your requirements scream a Bolero. It’s robust, built like a tank and will last as long as you want it to. It might not be as comfortable and refined as other cars you have listed but trust me it will be the right car for you. Yes it will be diesel but the maintenance is very low and the parts are inexpensive and easily available everywhere. Buy from Mahindra if you have money buy from local shops if you have less money otherwise buy from scrapyard if you are short of money. This is the first time I have advised someone a Bolero on the forum but I have my reasons. All modern cars that you have listed will not be very good on broken village roads over a period of 8-10 years. Plus the repairs are very expensive. A suspension job easily costs 40-50 K in modern cars which you will have to undertake in next 5-6 years and if you ignore these repairs car will start eating tyres which will also be expensive. Give it a try. Otherwise you should also consider Bolero Neo (TUV).

[Aaditto]

Originally Posted by boniver

... I doubt any of them will be able to deliver 15kmpl in non-highway conditions on a daily basis.

Thank you for your reply.

Yes, I am aware of the point you rightly make.

Actually, I meant an average of around 15 kmpl - i.e. average of city+highway travel.

[Dry Ice]

Welcome to the forum!

Are you willing to wait for the new car?

We keep hearing Maruti may launch the Jimny anytime now, and from what you have mentioned, it would suit your needs to the T. Maybe not the best in terms of ride quality, but hey, you handle a Gypsy so Jimny will most definitely be an upgrade in all departments.

[Shreyans_Jain]

You really need to give the TUV300, now sold as Bolero Neo, a long and hard look. This the the car that comes closest to meeting your requirements. It is tough as nails, spacious, comfortable at lower speeds and is super reliable and economical to own. This should be your first choice.

I do not like the idea of buying a model that is about to be discontinued. You will be left with an ‘old model’ within 6 months of buying. Why do that? If you are keen on Maruti only, wait for a few months for the updated Brezza and S Cross.

[Bibendum90949]

Welcome to the forum. All the requirements you've listed out may not be met in one vehicle. Compromises has to be made in one way or the other. One clear thing is none of the modern day cross-overs would stand the abuse the vehicle will be subjected to in your line of duty, especially when you're looking at very long term. Please do stay away from the Kigers, Magnites, Venues, Sonets et al.

The only car which may be an exception is the Renault Duster. It's got the credentials to withstand rough road usage a fair bit. You check it out and see if that works for you. RXS 1.5 Petrol MT variant would cost 11 lakhs OTR in Kolkata.

Thar AX four seater may well shoot past your budget, it'll be 14.xx lakhs on road in Kolkata.

Jimny may well be the car for you, but we all have been waiting for it since 3 years. It won't be under the 10 lakh mark. It would surely be 13-14 lakhs OTR even for the entry variant.

Else, as Shreyans suggested it has to be a Bolero or Bolero Neo. That's the closest car that you can buy new that suits your budget and requirements.

This is just another thought which may sound stupid and impractical but worth exploring. Pick up either a well maintained civilian Gypsy MGW 413(hard to find, but not impossible) or rebuild one with a 1.6 baleno engine, fix an AC and upgrade the suspension. All would cost 7 lakhs at the maximum. Since you've a trusted and experienced Maruti mechanic with you, this would be a fairly easy affair. It's still one of the very very few vehicles in your budget which can handle your type of usage on a long term. And you very well know the mechanical simplicity of Gypsy and it's highly reliable nature. At some point later, you can switch to a new Jimny, if budget permits.

[GTO]

If I were in your place, I'd go for the XUV300. A truly premium crossover (you'll love the interiors) with a fantastic engine + road manners + ground clearance that you need for rural areas. Mahindra has an excellent network in rural India too.

[mayuresh]

Originally Posted by nik0502

Your requirements scream a Bolero.

Had the same thought after reading your requirements.

Do share what you arrive at finally.

That apart, aren't you considering going for an electric one?

[Aaditto]

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

You really need to give the TUV300, now sold as Bolero Neo, a long and hard look. This the the car that comes closest to meeting your requirements. It is tough as nails, spacious, comfortable at lower speeds and is super reliable and economical to own. This should be your first choice...

Thank you very much for your input, @Shreyans_Jain!


I think I need to REPOSITION my "requirement" a bit - I have a feeling that my original post (inordinately protracted!) has managed to paint a rather EXCESSIVE picture of things...

While I understand why many of your are suggesting the Bolero/ Neo - I think that might be a bit of an over-kill?!


Out project is close to (15 kms) one of the most popular tourist destinations of West Bengal - Shantiniketan - the University township created by Rabindranath Thakur.
And local car vendors have been using the Bolero quite extensively - for a number of years. Along with the TATA Sumo.

So, I have seen the Bolero up close. And yes, I realise that it is up there in the league of a Gypsy, when it comes to rough roading and physical tenacity.


However, the car I am trying to buy for myself will NOT be required to yank out a tractor stuck in the mud (we have the company owned Gypsy for that)... neither will it be covering broken village-tracks for more than 20% of it's travel.


But yes - it NEEDS to last long - and yes, it will be doing SOME duty over pretty bad roads.


But, the point I am trying to make is, that whatever terrain/ travel the new car will be subjected to is EXACTLY what I have been making our 29-year old Maruti 800 do - pretty decently - over the past 6-7 years!


So, yes I do want a sturdy and reliable car - with a good ground clearance (that's the one department where our Maruti suffers badly) - but I also want a car that is at least decently comfortable and a little plush - if I am going to spent that much nomey on it.

I am NOT looking for a 'jeep' - I am looking for a sturdy CAR.


Also, my association with the Bolero - directly related to the 'tourist vehicles' provided by local vendors, and the trappings of 'tourism' in general - is rather sad!

And I HATE it's look, to be very honest - I haven't seen the Neo upfront though... (and here comes the smiley!)


Does that make any sense?

[PaddleShifter]

In simplest of words, look no further than the S-Cross/Brezza duo.

1. These two are among the most fuel efficient petrol cars, if not the most fuel efficient.
2. These are reasonably safe. Brezza is a 4 star tested car.
3. Service and parts support will never be a hassle. Even if updated or say discontinued, these cars will always get support. The 1500cc engine is common with many others such as Ciaz, Ertiga, XL6.
4. Brezza is getting updated for sure. So, if you want the updated model, better to wait for it now.
5. S-Cross may or may not get updated. Even if updated, the current one has its own design language. As you will be keeping the car for 8-10 years, resale does not matter so having the updated model is strictly a personal choice. What if updated model has a price increment?

These are my views based on reading your opening post thoroughly.

XUV300 is good but I will buy middle variants of Brezza/S-Cross over base variant of XUV300 without a thought. Same for Nexon. If it is a Nexon, it has to be the top variants.

[Aaditto]

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

... I do not like the idea of buying a model that is about to be discontinued. You will be left with an ‘old model’ within 6 months of buying. Why do that? If you are keen on Maruti only, wait for a few months for the updated Brezza and S Cross.

Originally Posted by boniver

... The only car I actually like in your list is the S-Cross, however, I'm not experienced enough to say it's the best one. All the best, and hope you take the right decision.

To be very honest, the S-Cross has actually gone to my heart, to some extant. As I did the TD, over an empty highway-connector (hitting 100 kmph), as well as a seriously broken down village tract, I was thinking to myself that I had found my car! My ONLY real concern with the performance was the unresponsive mid-range (along with the engine noise at that range).

My TD with the Brezza was not at all impressive. I did not like the feel at all.

Yes, as I said in my original post, I do feel 'happy' staying with Maruti - but I don't mind going to other brands either. In fact, the ONLY car from Maruti that I am seriously drawn to at the moment is the S-Cross.

So, when I saw both @Shreyans_Jain & @boniver mention the S-Cross, even as a possibility, my hopes rose further!

@Shreyans_Jain - I don't mind waiting - it's just that I DON'T LIKE the look of the UPDATED S-Cross - and as far as my research shows, that update will NOT change anything under the hood? Would you say that even the 'cosmetic' changes (body parts) might affect maintainability, in the long run - it's a Maruti, after all?!

Along with the feel of the vehicle, I REALLY like the LOOK of the present S-Cross!

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So, @boniver - I am eager to know a little more about why "The only car (you) actually like in (my) list is the S-Cross". And if you share your thoughts in that regard, then I'd be very keen to hear what other experts have to say about the choice.

Thanks a tonne, for all of your time and effort! It means a lot to get such feedback from all of you.

[Aaditto]

Originally Posted by mayuresh

... That apart, aren't you considering going for an electric one?

Thanks for your feedback.

Not that I haven't thought about an electric car... But frankly, I haven't done much research on it.

That is mostly because my experience tells me that, in India, one should wait for a while, before getting into any 'new technology' that has just 'arrived'.

Allied services, a vital part of maintaining any machine, takes a lot of time to get into the mainstream.

So, say I get an electric car. Can I take it to the mountains for a 7-day holiday? Will I find charging points within easy access? What if there's a breakdown? Will anyone be available in a remote area? And so on...

Just out of curiosity - would you RECOMMEND any particular electric car, as such?

[Ferruccio]

Originally Posted by nik0502

Hello Sir,

Your requirements scream a Bolero. Otherwise you should also consider Bolero Neo (TUV).

I am a Bong, 50, of a similar background to you and have been a product guy in many of the companies who's products you have shortlisted. Bolero or Bolero Neo is the best suited to your requirements. Don't look any further.

You shall also notice that after the demise of the Tata Sumo, Bolero is the most popular vehicle in the 7 Sisters, Nepal and Bhutan. So blindly go ahead and buy the flavour of Bolero that fits your pocket and taste. You shall be very happy.

[Aaditto]

Originally Posted by Bibendum90949

This is just another thought which may sound stupid and impractical but worth exploring. Pick up either a well maintained civilian Gypsy MGW 413(hard to find, but not impossible) or rebuild one with a 1.6 baleno engine, fix an AC and upgrade the suspension. All would cost 7 lakhs at the maximum. Since you've a trusted and experienced Maruti mechanic with you, this would be a fairly easy affair. It's still one of the very very few vehicles in your budget which can handle your type of usage on a long term. And you very well know the mechanical simplicity of Gypsy and it's highly reliable nature. At some point later, you can switch to a new Jimny, if budget permits.

Thanks! @Bibendum90949

I see the point you are making about procuring and modifying a Gypsy... but again, as I tired to clarify in an earlier reply, I DON'T need Gypsy-class hardiness. Besides, I already have a Gypsy at my disposal, at our Project. And what about the atrocious mileage of a Gypsy? Of course, changing the engine to Baleno would solve that issue. Also, what about 'papers'? The PVD is progressively becoming more and more tight fisted about renewing old vehicles!!!

Frankly, I am sick and tired of maintaining old vehicles, and however much I may modify it, a second-hand car is always that - an old vehicle, with constant issues and niggles.

Thanks for corroborating my inkling there, that I should "stay away from the Kigers, Magnites, Venues, Sonets et al".

I am actually seriously looking at THREE cars only - from the list I posted originally -

• S-Cross

• WR-V

• XUV 300

In that order of preference.

Though I do have a few TD's lined up for some of the "Kigers, Magnites, Venues, Sonets et al" varieties too.

Would be great to know what all you guys feel about those three choices!