[Torque-ative]

The End of Manual Labor? - MSN Autos

This article on MSN featured again today and could'nt resist but share it with all here.

I drive a City CVT and a manual city, one is mine the other is the company car used on out-station drives (which is a LOT). The CVT is beyound doubt extremely responsive,..but lacks top end. The manual is definety more fun but a pain in all the wrong places in city traffic.

The attached article however tries to dispell the so called "myths".

1. Auto's are slower
2. Auto's are less fuel efficient.

I am not sure if this is limited to the realm of sports cars only, as all examples sighted in the artcile are of super cars only.

Do you really think an Auto box would be available in India both faster and more fuel efficient than their manual counterparts !!
And I mean affordable cars 10-20 lacs.

If yes then would you an avid enthusiast choose the auto over the manual ? I for sure would.

[fatherlover]

The machine can do it faster than us...so i think automatic is good when compared to manual

[Thad E Ginathom]

This subject is like flock of crows in a tree. They never, ever stay quiet for long. One thinks, that's it, they've finished, then one starts Kaaa, Kaaa --- and the others have to tell how wrong he is!



.

[raj3300]

Modern day autos are faster than Manual.

[suneel]

Originally Posted by headers

maybe thats what he means when he says "better engine braking". A sudden drop in a gear to use the engine capabilities better than gradually slowing doing the same.

I agree though that the gradual method is more comfortable for the passengers.

I dont think engine braking is better on Autos with paddles than in Manuals because in an auto, all you can do is paddle down the gear causing a very abrupt decrease in speed. Thats good only if you want really sharp braking. You can achieve the same sudden braking in the manual by downshifting and immediately releasing the clutch. The advantage in a manual is that you can choose how gradually you want the engine breaking to be by regulating the clutch. Thats something you cant do with an automatic with paddles.
I think thats what GTO was trying to say ^^

[raveen_2023]

Originally Posted by raj3300

Modern day autos are faster than Manual.

we can't generalize. It varies from car to car and mainly depends on the driver.

Originally Posted by fatherlover

The machine can do it faster than us...so i think automatic is good when compared to manual

Manuals have always been faster( with a few exceptions). Because you can wait till the tachometer reaches red line RPM with a manual, where as in an automatic car gears are pre fixed and transmission upshifts after reaching certain RPM.

Note from the Team-BHP Support: Please use the "edit" button if posting within 15 minutes of the first post, instead of creating another back-to-back post

Also use "Multi Quote" option for quoting Multiple posts.

[headers]

Originally Posted by suneel

I dont think engine braking is better on Autos with paddles than in Manuals because in an auto, all you can do is paddle down the gear causing a very abrupt decrease in speed. Thats good only if you want really sharp braking. You can achieve the same sudden braking in the manual by downshifting and immediately releasing the clutch.

i do see your POV, but in the automatic the gearboxshifts are faster.. always!

Originally Posted by raveen_2023

we can't generalize. It varies from car to car and mainly depends on the driver.



Manuals have always been faster( with a few exceptions).

Thats precisely why i started this thread. To understand public opinion about which is faster.

I've known a few automatics that are faster than their manual counterparts!

[Technocrat]

Sorry to be nitpicky, but aren't we talking about which one is quicker than faster?

I believe for a given engine spec both should be equally fast (unless the there is some difference in final drive).

Correct me if I am wrong.

[Thad E Ginathom]

The maximum speed should be the same or very close; maybe an auto gearbox is heavier, and that might shave a little off the max.

I have understood this thread to be referring to the acceleration, which is far more relevant to the feel and experience of driving a car than its actual top KmPH.

[suneel]

Well in all the acceleration timings done in roadtests (0-100, 0-150, Quartermile) the manual timings are always lower than the automatic timings of the same car. So in terms of acceleration, manuals are faster in most indian cars. At least the cars below the 30 lakh bracket.

[d_himan]

My observations (of the AT in Civic) after a thorough 4 day experience in Kerala's single roads last week. I'm a fairly aggressive driver and like to rev the engine every once in a while.

1. In the 'D' mode, I hated it. Kerala's traffic requires a sudden burst of acceleration in the opposing lane and quickly coming back in. The lag in response between the pedal being depressed and the actual acceleration killed most of my overtaking plans. I had to alter my style and press the pedal maybe a second or two in advance, but 'twas spooky. Overall, 'D' mode was only smooth if i was gently wafting along.

2. The paddles in 'S' mode were good. But like GTO pointed out, couldn't use engine braking as nicely as I do in a manual. Also, aggressive driving resulted in a jerky ride..maybe I need more practice. Was a pain to use paddles during turns. Also, the paddles refused to shift up to 5th gear at 40kmph.

3. Thanks to Immortalz's PM, I finally started liking the Civic AT in the S Mode without paddles. The shifts are faster, felt more like a manual. Surprisingly, the car also became smoother/no jerks during sudden acceleration etc. Also, it adapted to my driving style. Initially the shifts from 1-2, 2-3 took long, but later became noticeably shorter.

4. On inclines/stop-go traffic, the auto impresses! I'm sure if i were driving the Civic AT in Mumbai, the story would be different!

5. One surprising thing - when my a diff driver drove the car for a day in S Mode, and I took it for a spin again in S mode, the shifts became jerky!! It took a good half an hour to adapt to my style. Now I know why the S Class has diff driver memory settings!

6. My style of using Civic AT - S Mode till crusing speed and then D mode for fuel economy.

So, well, for Kerala roads, I think i'd be happier in a manual. In Mumbai, the S mode would be perfect.

[ImmortalZ]

Glad to know you were finally able to wrestle the A/T box into working for you.

I'm using the S mode more and more in city traffic now - 3000 RPM is way too addictive! The way the car just responds to minutest touch of the accelerator pedal is a great experience.

The paddles prevent you from shifting up at too low an RPM so you stall the engine or shift down at too high a speed so you hit redline (and damage the drivetrain). I've experienced that you can downshift straight into redline, so it is a very fine line it keeps from crossing. I've seen the D mode cruise in 5th gear at as low as 900RPM, but I don't keep note of things like the speed at that RPM as I'm a very "drive with feel and not numbers" guy. Besides, being a newbie, I gotta keep my eye on the road always.

I've not found much use of the paddles to be honest as I can control the whole thing using just the accelerator. The D and S modes provide me with a distinct Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde feel from the gearbox - and that's all I need.

[manim]

Originally Posted by d_himan

Thanks to Immortalz's PM, I finally started liking the Civic AT in the S Mode without paddles. The shifts are faster, felt more like a manual. Surprisingly, the car also became smoother/no jerks during sudden acceleration etc

Can you let me know how this is achieved?
I have driven 33K in my Civic-AT over two years and most of the time I use D-mode. S-mode with paddles for aggresive driving, but I find that pure S-mode (w/o paddles) is unneccesary.
So your reply would help me.

[headers]

Originally Posted by suneel

Well in all the acceleration timings done in roadtests (0-100, 0-150, Quartermile) the manual timings are always lower than the automatic timings of the same car. So in terms of acceleration, manuals are faster in most indian cars. At least the cars below the 30 lakh bracket.

lower meaning numerically higher ?

Originally Posted by manim

Can you let me know how this is achieved?
I have driven 33K in my Civic-AT over two years and most of the time I use D-mode. S-mode with paddles for aggresive driving, but I find that pure S-mode (w/o paddles) is unneccesary.
So your reply would help me.

IN pure S mode without paddles, the engine holds the RPM till about 6000 RPM and upshifts. One can feel the power!

If you are not one who likes to rev engines, then you would not enjoy the S mode.

Atleast thats what I gather going by your above post!

[d_himan]

Manim: Pure S mode without paddles is intimidating for the first ten min. The first gear upshifts at a high RPM (4k+ if i remember), the second at 4000+rpm and so on. But be patient and persist. Drive normally. Brake normally as is nothing's wrong. And presto, after a while, the upshifts start happenning at lower RPMs. The only drawback is that at 90kmph+, the car is typically still in the 3rd/4th so I manually slip the stick up to 'D' - 5th automatically comes in. For my driving style, the S mode was super smooth and the shifts were noticeably faster.

headers: nopes, couldn't hit 6000 rpm in any gear in S mode. shifts at around 3000 rpm after a while.