[omar1310]

I agree. If you read it carefully, it does say that they are same while on motion. But Honda steering feels light when you want to park. The steering's feel as far as the handling is concerned, there is no match to Linea. This is covered in the ride/handling point.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by GTO

The non-quantifiable factors of a Honda City are the exact reason that I'm still holding on, and look forward to driving, a 7 year old example. Despite not having an budgetary restrictions to upgrade. She works day in and day out with ZERO complain. And you know that I don't baby my cars, she is driven hard.

I'll give you another non-quantifiable factor, RX. FUN TO DRIVE. Honda's petrol engines are built first, then the car around it (not literally, but you get the gist). They are beautiful to high-revv and teh gearboxes amongst the best in the business.

Consider this (and look up multiple posts of mine stating so) : I find the OHC Vtec much more fun to drive than my Mercedes C220, a car that obviously blows the Linea away in terms of handling, high speed behaviour and all that Euro build quality talk. Heck, the C220's acceleration & mid-range are RS matching / beating. The OHC Vtec today brings more smiles to my face after a high revving session than the Mercedes does. That probably explains why I took the Vtec on my last trip to Pune over the Benz. The fun to drive factor is surely an "unquantifiable" factor that's important to enthusiasts?

And for all that handling advantage that the Linea has, where is the power to exploit it? The Honda City may have 20% less grip levels but with 50% quicker acceleration, it will exploit its handling more. The ANHC will go from Pt. A to Pt. Z much quicker than the Linea, and blow it away on the track. Not everyone goes to the track, but the point is, it can use its handling much better than the Linea can. In the recent ACI track tests, and IIRC, the ANHC was nearly as quick as the Civic (1 second diff?).

Originally Posted by EssYouWe

Not everyone can afford to spend the sort of money that you easily ignore in all your comparisons.

Actually, the masses (read = Indian market) is already spending the additional "sort of money" on the Honda City. September sales ANHC vs Linea 4 : 1 The ANHC is overall a better product than the Linea.

Perhaps for you the deal maker is the powertrain. It is not so for everyone.

Whatever the deal is, the ANHC seems to be meeting the markets requirements better. Even at a premium price. That's the thing about all-rounders. They appeal to the maximum number of people.

But then the reason people do go for it is the brand image.

That statement is entirely rubbished by the Jazz' market failure. If the H badge has value, it's for good reason.

there are almost as many Lineas as ANHCs in Pune. I have seen this first hand.

I'm sorry, but I choose to go with hard numbers over informal roadside spotting activites.

For me handling and stability is the most important thing and the Linea is more than just rewarding on that front.

I'm a fan too! Read up my GP review.

FYI I am yet to hear of any niggles about the Linea from anyone I personally know.

Look up the various reports on this forum of loose parts, niggles, ill-fitted components, unwelcome noises etc. etc. The list can go on.

Oh and one question, is the SX4 more fuel efficient than the Linea?

I don't believe so. The SX4, as things turned out, had more than its share of rough edges.

[SSN]

My Linea (petrol) has always returned me an average of 10-11kms per litre in city and about 14 kms per litre on the highways with AC on 100% in both the cases. The efficiency figures for diesel which I have read on TBhp threads were decent to say the least. So I was surprised to see comments about the Linea's fuel efficiency among other things.

The Linea-ANHC debate will be an endless one and I have stayed away from it all the time.But I would like to mention that the ANHC was my dream car and I was all set to buy it but then opted for the Linea. The major factor influencing my decision was the pricing and the value I was getting for the price which I was paying. The VFM factor and the looks was what did it for me.

Coming to the niggles I believe that no car has been put under the microscope as much as the Linea has been on TBHP by owners and non-owners. And also there are many new Linea ownership threads and they are updated almost hourly with all the positives and the negatives. I for one have enjoyed a fairly niggle free experience with my Linea and I know many others too who have enjoyed the same. So just generalizing that the Linea has a lot of niggles based on a few ownership threads on TBHP would be wrong IMO.

Just my two cents.

[vnabhi]

Great job Omar---frankly the best comparo so far. There is only one mistake---the Honda that you have is the ANHC, not the NHC as mentioned in the pdf

[omar1310]

Hi! But then, I have mentioned its a SMT and bought March 09. The SMT version comes in the ANHC only.

[neotraveller]

@GTO,

I think ANHC is riding on the "highly fuel-efficient" perception because of the previous NHC.
In reality, ANHC's fuel-efficiency is only marginally better than Linea or other sedans.
You can also check thread by Omar who owns both Linea & ANHC and he has reported same FE figures in City 10-10.5 kmpl for both cars. On highway, ANHC seems better by about 1kmpl.

However, Where the ivtec scores is .... even after being a powerful engine, it still returns same FE as the weaker engines of Linea,SX4 etc.

Originally Posted by SSN

But I would like to mention that the ANHC was my dream car and I was all set to buy it but then opted for the Linea. The major factor influencing my decision was the pricing and the value I was getting for the price which I was paying. The VFM factor and the looks was what did it for me.

+1 Exactly my thoughts too. World over people know that nothing can beat Japanese petrol engines (I owned a corolla previously). I always wanted to buy the city as I was a fan of Jap engines. But at the end of the day, the ANHC priced itself away from me.

[extreme_torque]

Another glaring omission in Honda City is the CD/MP3 player... I am supposed to carry all my songs in a USB drive everytime? What if I have a good CD and I want to play it along?

As far as reliability is concerned, I have never heard anyone say that European engines arent built to last. I have driven a Fiesta with more than 85k kilometers with engine as good as ever and I wouldnt be surprised if it maintains the same performance for twice the number of kilometer or more. As far as engine is concerned the Europeans are more cutting edge as far as technology is concerned.

[neotraveller]

This is a very useful feature for me.

I keep the car-cover in the boot. Every night after parking the car at home I wait few hours for it to cool down.

When I am ready to cover her up, all I need to do is just click-open the boot with the key FOB.
No opening doors, fiddling with levers and all!

Originally Posted by omar1310

Foldable key is definitely a plus, but opeing the boot from that key is a point to highlight and talk about, as it extends the convinience to the user.

[EssYouWe]

Hehe, GTO you sure are in love with the ANHC.

I absolutely agree with you that it is a great car.

What I do disagree with you on (now) is your opinion about the buyer mentality.

I do not know how things are in Mumbai and my knowledge would be limited to a few cities in the north.

People in Delhi looking for a car in a particular segment will invariably go in for a Hyundai or Honda if given the choice.
People in Delhi will also buy a premium sedan over a hatch if the price lies in the same range. The latter is the over-riding factor here. The idea of a long car appeals to the average Delhi-ite.

So it does not come as a surprise when people give the Jazz a miss for its exorbitant price tag.

PS:The SX4 thing was 'coz you quoted a post which claimed that the SX4 is more efficient v/s the Linea.

[Ravveendrra]

Originally Posted by Shan2nu

I'm not really impressed with Honda's descission on this. The Vtec engine won't make any difference in the NHC body shell.

Even if the NHC was to have a 106bhp Vtec engine, i doubt if it would be able to keep up with the older 1.5 non Vtec.

But getting an I-Vtec engine might solve that problem to a certain extent. You'll have quicker response at even low rpms which will help the NHC in roll-ons and acceleration.

Regards...
Shan2nu

Originally Posted by Tom

why do u think so?

Originally Posted by ajmat

Pwer to weight ratio
Not as good a handler

Originally Posted by GTO

The NHC is not a drivers car at all. Its heavier, nowhere as responsive, the current line up has a tard of an engine (from the high revving point of view), the steering does not communicate...and wait - Out goes the passion, in comes practicality.

GTO

Originally Posted by Rtech

I don't understand the logic of this.

It's obvious that this generation City is never going to be a car that is lusted after, even if it does have a 105hp engine in it. People who buy the NHC buy it for its practicality, reliability and interiors. They do not buy it as a style statement or performance car.

With the proposed pricing of the NHC Vtec in the mid 8 lakh range going upto 9 lakhs, I feel it is a complete waste. Yes, it may have a decent straight line performance, but overall, there is only so much you can do with this car when it comes to handling before the laws of physics take over. If it were my money, I would buy an Optra, as simple as that.

Honda desperatly needs to launch the Civic, but as they are waiting for the next generation model to come out, I guess we are stuck with this wannabe performer till early next year.

Closing statement: I'm not the least bit excited about the NHC Vtec.

Originally Posted by Shan2nu

I agree Rtech, there's a limitto how much suspenssion and tyres can improve ride and handling. I don't think this version is gonna have any special suspenssion.

Height and bulk being the biggest culprits. The new Vtec might ride and handle better than the NHC idsi but, it'll never be able to match the Ikon, Lancer, OHC or the Baleno.

The Corolla is the perfect example of this, light car, powerful engine, blistering in a straight line but, the moment the roads get twisty, the disadvantages of having a tall, bulky car start showing.

.........
Shan2nu

The OHC was in a different league altogether. H lost that DNA a long time ago (in the NHC itself) and nothing to show that the ANHC shares any DNA with the OHC.

There is one (elusive for now) thread somewhere here in TBHP where several senior members have pointed out, succinctly, that the difference between the OHC and the NHC is that the former goes around corners while the latter is likely to go through them.

IMHO if the car cannot handle, what is the point of it having 500 horses under the hood, or being able to touch 300 kmph on a straight if the first turning is going to do it in.

Cheers,

[GTO]

Originally Posted by Ravveendrra

The OHC was in a different league altogether.

Raveendrra, you have quoted our comments on the NHC (2nd City to be sold in India) which has an entirely different philosophy than the ANHC (current Honda City). The NHC had only 77 BHP, a tall stance and wasn't really built for speed. That said, and though I'd never be caught dead in one (can't digest the looks), it was an immensely practical car that met the needs of the market. Maybe met them better than the ANHC does in some ways.

H lost that DNA a long time ago (in the NHC itself)

Take a spin in the Civic, Raveendrra. You'll be impressed with the DNA. And while at a showroom, high-revv an ANHC too.

and nothing to show that the ANHC shares any DNA with the OHC.

Actually, the ANHC behaves FAR better at high speed than the OHC. One of the OHCs biggest weaknesses was its basic suspension and wafer-light weight. Helped the acceleration & driver feel, but its terribly nervous at 150. The ANHC has been a massive step ahead here, as well as in terms of handling & braking (OHC didn't even have ABS).

The ANHC sells at about the same price as the OHC Vtec did in its time. And car versus car, it is superior in almost every way. However, the OHC's hyper-vtec engine revvs better and the car being lighter / basic, offers more feel (its almost like a gokart).

IMHO if the car cannot handle, what is the point of it having 500 horses under the hood, or being able to touch 300 kmph on a straight if the first turning is going to do it in.

We are really going to extremes here. The ANHC can very well manage its horses. In fact, the handling of the ANHC can exploit that 116 BHP better than the Linea's BHP can exploit its handling advantage. In track tests, the ANHC has been marginally slower (1 second if IIRC ACI's numbers correctly) than the Civic! This with stock rubber, something thats the easiest to upgrade.

The ANHC chassis has good balance in corners, something that can only be extended by good rubber. Of course, the Linea has an edge here. But like I said, it really doesn't have the engine to use that handling.

Originally Posted by neotraveller

I think ANHC is riding on the "highly fuel-efficient" perception because of the previous NHC.

Hey, its physics. The ANHC is a substantially lighter car and the engine is high on tech. The ANHC will be atleast 1.5 kpl more efficient than the Linea in a city like Mumbai.

However, Where the ivtec scores is .... even after being a powerful engine, it still returns same FE as the weaker engines of Linea,SX4 etc.

Believe me, you gotta live with Honda's petrols to truly appreciate them. As you stated, the iVtec at play here.

[neoonwheels]

The primary problem with FIAT selling good number of Lineas is "brand image". The mass hardly visits TATA showroom when they have 8-9L ready with them. First thing they will do is to visit Honda/Maruti/Hyundai/Ford showroom.

My take on this is:

1. Linea will be familiar to people may be after another 6-12 months. Its been only 9 months since the car has been launched. This delay is primarily because of the legendary FIAT brand image. A company that was used to sell couple of hundred cars.
2. The TJet and 1.6 MJD can cater to more power hungry people while the existing FIRE and 1.3 MJD will continue catering sub 8L bracket. So one of the major "gung ho" about the Honda engine is gonna addressed soon.
3. The interior should improve a bit. FIAT is making efforts in this case. I guess they are working with TATA suppliers than their own good old suppliers (Palio time). ANHC has nice interiors which actually is a very important factor for many people than engine. NHC with 77 bhp was accepted, we should not forget this, so its not only engine in ANHC that is playing the trick.
4. Keep marketing Linea and Punto with ads every now and then. TV commercials on right time on channel makes sense. Instead of Travel and Living channel they should target Star Plus/Sony etc. Rather increase the frequency of ads.
5. Keep a tight check on dealers for the misbehave/goof up so as to improve customer experience.

FIAT being on a comeback should not make mistakes which people can not tolerate. The segment which Linea caters to, hardly tolerates quality issues and service experience. We should also understand that its a JV, so its not only FIAT which has the responsibility of selling cars. The sales and support is looked after by TATA. FIAT only produces cars, period.

Its not easy to defeat Honda/segment leader, but certainly not impossible. It will definitely take time for Linea to clock comparable numbers but it gonna surely happen.

[iTNerd]

Originally Posted by GTO

Take a spin in the Civic, Raveendrra. You'll be impressed with the DNA. And while at a showroom, high-revv an ANHC too.

Believe me, you gotta live with Honda's petrols to truly appreciate them. As you stated, the iVtec at play here.

I had test drive both the Civic and ANHC on Greater Noida Expressway in 2 days and true to what GTO had expressed, I am floored by the very refinned, high-revv iVTEC engine, so much so, even now, for 2-3 hours after the TD, I got disoriented in my SX4 driving it . Everytime, I tried flooring in the accelerator somehow in lower gears. The TD had given a lasting impression on the driving dynamics of the iVTECs.. purely FUN all the way!

PS. So much so, I'll be booking a new Civic MT toda!

[GTO]

Originally Posted by neoonwheels

The primary problem with FIAT selling good number of Lineas is "brand image".

FIAT being on a comeback should not make mistakes which people can not tolerate. The segment which Linea caters to, hardly tolerates quality issues and service experience.

True, though I must add that Fiat is on the right track WRT their comeback. Great cars, good diesel engine, heavy level of kit and well priced. Of course, there is still a lot of work to be done, especially in the areas of overall fit & finish, rebuilding their image and keeping customer satisfaction levels high.

One challenge to the Fiat Linea is coming up next week itself. This is going to be a crucial battle : The Tata Manza! Same Linea diesel engine, way better interior space, about the same level of interior fit and finish and better pricing. Fiat needs to work damn hard to convince those customers who will inevitably cross-shop in the same showroom. The Manza, Fiat seems to agree, is the most significant threat to the Linea.

The TJet and 1.6 MJD can cater to more power hungry people while the existing FIRE and 1.3 MJD will continue catering sub 8L bracket.

I am still not seeing any confirmations of this. And if & when the engines come, it will be at a higher pricepoint, partially erasing the Linea's VFM-for-the-segment equation. I don't expect these engines to substantially contribute to the sales, Indian customers are happy with the 1.3 diesels FE.

The interior should improve a bit. FIAT is making efforts in this case.

Easier said than done. Wafer-thin profit margins = squeeze suppliers.

Keep marketing Linea and Punto with ads every now and then.

The way I see it, there is nothing wrong with Fiat's marketing of the two cars. You practically see them everywhere (TV, newspapers, online etc.).

Originally Posted by iTNerd

I had test drive both the Civic and ANHC on Greater Noida Expressway in 2 days and true to what GTO had expressed, I am floored by the very refinned, high-revv iVTEC engine, so much so, even now, for 2-3 hours after the TD, I got disoriented in my SX4 driving it . Everytime, I tried flooring in the accelerator somehow in lower gears. The TD had given a lasting impression on the driving dynamics of the iVTECs.. purely FUN all the way!

PS. So much so, I'll be booking a new Civic MT toda!

Hahaha! That's the beauty of Honda engines. Congrats on teh Civic.

[SkyWalker]

Originally Posted by GTO

One challenge to the Fiat Linea is coming up next week itself. This is going to be a crucial battle : The Tata Manza! Same Linea diesel engine, way better interior space, about the same level of interior fit and finish and better pricing. Fiat needs to work damn hard to convince those customers who will inevitably cross-shop in the same showroom. The Manza, Fiat seems to agree, is the most significant threat to the Linea.

seriously, this is was a question mark ever since Vista came up. Manza is looking good, and looks like it will be an improvement in quality like Vista was over the regular Indica.

Both products in the same showroom - and Tata's showroom at that. Its doesn't take a genius to know where the customers will be dragged to by salespeople.