[ringoism]

Dieselhead: I can see yours is being done up very nicely... and is going to be some serious fun to drive. The 2.6 is gutsy and you may want to think (at the expense of some articulation) about a bigger anti-sway bar up front (pickup one works). And disc brakes (also pickup).

Happy to see this turning into a Marshal thread of sorts...

-Eric

[dieselhead]

Originally Posted by ringoism

Dieselhead: I can see yours is being done up very nicely... and is going to be some serious fun to drive. The 2.6 is gutsy and you may want to think (at the expense of some articulation) about a bigger anti-sway bar up front (pickup one works). And disc brakes (also pickup).

Happy to see this turning into a Marshal thread of sorts...

-Eric

Thx for the good word. Next time I plan to plonk in a scorpio coil rear end. Not sure what to do with the front. Do not like the IFS though.

[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by ringoism

The 2.6 is gutsy and you may want to think (at the expense of some articulation) about a bigger anti-sway bar up front (pickup one works). And disc brakes (also pickup).

Happy to see this turning into a Marshal thread of sorts...

-Eric

...and for us Marshal wannabes. So nice of the CMVR, Central Motor Vehicle Rules folks, to save us all from ourselves. I feel so safe now running on Indian roads populated by people who don't know how to drive but with airbags protecting THEM from their lunacy if not me...sans the 2020 safety "Improvements".. I am now about to pay 120% more for a new car I don't like as much as a 4X4 Marshal? Nope! If the creek don't rise and the virus don't get me, I am gonna find a Marshal and woo it.. ...can you marry machinery in India?

Eric, by the way, the doggy ways of the original Thar were greatly cured by some anti-polution work suggested by dhanushs. See https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-t...-torque-9.html (Thar CRDe: Improving its low-end torque)

My two Thars run good up hills and from a standing start now. Would rather have a Marshal though...with heater and defrost.

[Kosfactor]

^ Please come down to the Ghats - Ooty is where you`ll find your Marshal. Makes it a nice trip.

[ringoism]

Originally Posted by DirtyDan

If the creek don't rise and the virus don't get me, I am gonna find a Marshal and woo it.. ...can you marry machinery in India? My two Thars run good up hills and from a standing start now. Would rather have a Marshal though...with heater and defrost.

One can (ceremonially) potentially marry several things in India, but I'm not sure I've heard of vehicles as yet.

Ken, honestly at one time I thought to try and buy your Invader... Now it sounds like that's gone; and in the meantime I am getting close to thinking of (maybe) selling the Marshal (is that sufficiently non-committal?)... So will keep you in mind!

Heater / defogger and much more should be do-able. There was a Kerala Marshal posted in the forums here way back that had the entire late-model Bolero dashboard fitted, with A/C and all. And Bhpian Vikrant (handle? - it's there someplace earlier in this thread) has done up his Marshal (2005-ish?) SOOOO nice with most/ all the creature comforts, 35" tyres - and now a turbo on the DI! Lots of potential in these, and I have half a mind to do the same with ours.

To my surprise, was looking through my documents just after my last post, and realized the RC was expiring THE FOLLOWING DAY!!! (31st March) Got the fees paid online real quick, and I need to get it re-inspected in the next few weeks for our next five years' "passing" (hoping)... Shouldn't take much but a bit of paint/body touch-up - mechanically all's well, so let's see.

Anyway, other half of my mind gets thinking it's served us well for longer (nine years) than a lot of people keep cars they bought brand-new. It's just turned 20, and while reliability-wise I have absolutely no concerns about it whatsoever, and it seems perfect for local use, thing is that with aging in-laws 2500km's away on the one hand, and on the other the usual Himalayan trekking routes highly improved vs. what they once were - and then again, with collector / enthusiast interest increasing, and the new scrappage laws looking to be turning out voluntary and not too highly exorbitant / difficult to deal with... I DO get thinking we might actually be able to sell it vs. scrap it - and that something biased more towards highway capacities may serve us better looking forward. 4wd still not negotiable, but something a bit more "plush" and quiet at 100kmph (wife doesn't like when I shout at her!) may be in order.

I have people pretty often chatting me up, telling me how these older cars were great, and how the new ones they own are an expensive pain to own / maintain.

All this to say we may just update it and run it another five years... or we may take the plunge into electronics (and EGR's/ECM's, and turbos, and those damnable electric-shift transfer-cases, and...).

But that's for another thread...

-Eric

[ringoism]

I drove it down today to get a bit of body welding done in a couple spots... I've got all my body/paint supplies together and as soon as we have a sunny day will get at it (raining like mad at the moment). Not doing an overall, just a bit of touch-up here and there in preparation for what I hope will be a successful "passing".

When I drive this thing after testing others... I get thinking that if I never intended to drive outside of H.P., I'd just hang P/S and a turbo on it and drive it till my dying day... Such a great machine, really... But alas, as aforementioned, want to do some highway travels looking forward. And as a responsible human, probably ought to be aiming beyond BSIII eventually.

****

Now I know the following should probably be in the "Which Car" section of the forum - but I figure anyone who's been following this thread may be better able to advise than the T-bhp masses / thread scanners...

Ok. So options seem awfully slim in light of our basic requirements and aversion to EMI's: Basically want a 5-door 4x4 that's reliable and reasonably efficient / travel-worthy. It should be able to handle rough roads and highways alike. And ideally not be more than about 7-8 years old. And with both Himalayan residence and long-distance roaming in view, we also have to think about the competence of local mechanics and parts supply in smaller towns / remoter regions, etc. So here we go:

1. Bolero: The next logical step as it's basically on the Marshal platform. Probably could work. M2DiCR and CRDe (Storm) models seem pretty compelling as upgrades, the former for its better NVH & 20kmpl highway, the latter for its smooth and energetic performance. But the former came only a couple recent years in 4x4, and that only in spartan LX trim w/o A/C. The latter had a truly brilliant engine and all the creature comforts, but never got the 4x4 option. Either way, luggage and second-row space are really cramped for a full-sized SUV - and we've got two growing sons and loads of stuff to carry.

2. Bolero Plus / hightop: Solves the space issues, but if they made them recently with 4x4, I believe it was only with the rattly old MDI-TC - a truly great engine but not really feeling like an upgrade vs. the Marshal. Not sure these were available with P/S & A/C, for that matter, and even if they were, where do I find a good private one that hasn't been hammered on in taxi duty?

3. Safari: Lovable and large - the ultimate domestic cruiser maybe, loads of good (and some bad) stories here in the forums. They'll do it all... but beyond several years seems they'll keep you busy. Looked at a friend's 2007 one-owner Dicor (3.0) 4x4 here. Truly tempting machine. But a long list of outstanding maintenance items to be resolved. Also a very heavy (2200kg!) and large car to handle, and the relatively high gearing used in the 3.0 (that some here have controversially complained about) probably would drive my wife mad at points. It is a bit tricky to start out on steep gradients (like our parking). Especially in reverse.

4. Aria: Hardly knew they existed till recently. People seem to like them mostly, probably a better all-round traveler than the Safari and perhaps a bit more reliable / safer, too. Great second-hand deals out there. If the 2014-onwards Pure (simplest, least gadget-laden model) had come with 4x4, it would have been nice. Trying to avoid the electronic bells and whistles of the premium variants. And a low-range transfer case would really be helpful for us here, we use it all the time. And I'm a bit old-school in my preference for being able to see the front fenders / corners of a car. We do a lot of tight maneuvering up here.

5. Gurkha: Would do the job very well, but 5-door 4x4's seem too new (expensive) / too rare. Very few Gurkhas around in general, so parts supply iffy, too.

6. Fortuner: Great cars of superior quality/ reliability, but they do look a little overblown / ostentatious to me (I guess that was the whole point, right?)... and the 1st generation ones we have the budget for are getting near 10 years, so a bit on the older side. Also not highly efficient with the 3L, I suppose?

7. Duster (/Nissan) AWD: Brilliant design and package, but low torque and apparently highly flawed mechanicals (injectors, rear suspension, etc - going by threads here). Maintenance nightmare / money-pit, sounds like. What a shame, considering "what might have been".

8. Pajero - great cars, but too old/ thirsty. Mitsu service/parts rare.

9. Xenon - Probably one of the better options, assuming they're a bit less problematic vs. Safari. Not too easy to find up here. And they say they're as long as a 7-series BMW (and a lot more rattly!)!

10. Scorpio Getaway - I like 'em and people say they're pretty okay. Looks pretty butch, and most components shared with Scorpio, so quite serviceable. Not too fancy, a good option but also not easy to find up here. Gotta find a white-plate registration, besides.

11. Camper Gold: They've got some sound-deadener and creature comforts in them, and pretty okay as Mahindra DI cars go. 4x4 model exists and must have the manual 4x4 lever, but rare - and supposedly only the 2wd can be granted a white-plate (due to load capacity or whatever).

12. Scorpio 4wd: Pretty okay cars. A LOT more spacious than the Bolero. Original 2.6 and CRDe are good all-round performers but getting old. And as my (controversial) earlier thread (1000km in Lahaul/Spiti) suggests, the early mHawk (BSIV, at least) was a terrible performer at high altitudes - just no torque available at all at low revs, loads of lag with that sudden, ridiculous thrust forward till running out of steam at 4,000rpm's. Heard this from a number of other hill-region owner/operators as well. Unpleasant / impractical to me. That said, probably a re-map on a simple LX 4wd (all that cladding on other models is a waste in my view) would suit us fine - but haven't seen the LX for sale much. M2Di(/CR) Scorp also kinda ok and very efficient, but never got the 4wd, afaik. Bringing us to the 3rd (current) gen Scorp, where the mHawk has finally found its grunt, the suspension / ride is said to be far better, etc... But then, these are holding a pretty high value second-hand. Friend here selling one said she couldn't take less than 7.5L for a 2015. Personally the styling of this gen (especially the rear door cladding) has seemed pretty frumpy to me right from the start. They've got about the ugliest steel wheels ever put on a car. The hood (bonnet) seems to slope upwards from the windscreen, like the car's chassis is sagging someplace. So haven't been able to warm up to its looks yet. But that may be overlooked for now. Above all need something that WORKS: "Form follows function".

13. CRV / Grand Vitara / Tucson / Terracan / SSangYong, etc - Thirsty and/or rare enough to not want to be stuck in the middle of nowhere with one.

14. XUV AWD- Bit beyond our price range and said to have electrical niggles (I'm a mechanical engineer, so electricity is like black-magic to me!). And again, no lo-range.

So all said, as usual, most models don't have the combinations of equipment we want. Could convert a Bolero Storm to rigid axle 4x4, but that's a real project. Or put A/C, P/S, 4x4 on a rigid-axle hightop Plus. Or whatever. Apart from (il)legalities, I'm not trying to be a custom-car builder here.

Or else, for those vehicles that DO have the right combo (Gurkha 5-dr, Fortuner, Getaway/Xenon), they're either hard to find or expensive, or both.

Gonna look at a 3rd gen Scorpio (mHawk 4wd) rebuild project tomorrow. Let's see.

Meanwhile, any thoughts / suggestions very welcome.

-Eric

[abhikb]

Hi,

Any thoughts on the VCross, don’t have idea on the price but I believe there will be many of them plying uphills then in the plains.

Best one would be look out for a good Xenon or Scorpio Getaway. All the other 4x4 listed above were sold in less numbers apart from the Fortuner, hence finding a good one will be a task. You may also try looking out for a endeavor.

All the best !!!

[ashis89]

Originally Posted by abhikb

Hi,

Any thoughts on the VCross

+1 to the VCross

Originally Posted by ringoism

8. Pajero - great cars, but too old/ thirsty. Mitsu service/parts rare.

....Fortuner, Getaway/Xenon), they're either hard to find or expensive, or both.

Gonna look at a 3rd gen Scorpio (mHawk 4wd) rebuild project

VCross is a good suggestion though a tad long for the hills. You can also look for a MUX (it's even rarer).

Apart from your shortlist of Fortuner>>Scorpio>Getaway/Xenon, how about adding Pajero Sport to pool? It has good FE, is newer and would be reliable. I believe parts could be sourced from Delhi markets though you would have to confirm this.

Edit: How about retaining the Marshal for pure off-road use and grab a comfortable cruiser for long trips or good roads in the hills, say a 2WD Scorpio/XUV/Duster? Two warriors for the two different worlds?

[Kosfactor]

Camper 4x4 with power steering - yellow plate. Down here in the Ghats , that is the preferred option to buy new from a utility perspective. Tea \ coffee gardens etc has run out of old M&M Pickups to buy.

For highway & hills & town = Scorpio. Gen 3 has lesser wheel articulation in the rear, they have tightened up the roll bar for better highway manners, the previous version has better articulation (I have them both). Get the 7 seat version with jump seats , they have good legroom in the second row.

[dieselhead]

Or else, for those vehicles that DO have the right combo (Gurkha 5-dr, Fortuner, Getaway/Xenon), they're either hard to find or expensive, or both.

Gonna look at a 3rd gen Scorpio (mHawk 4wd) rebuild project tomorrow. Let's see.

Meanwhile, any thoughts / suggestions very welcome.

-Eric[/quote]
Yours seem to be the same exact problem which pushed me to go the whole hog - Marshal, chain drive sz plus, 4x4,ac( dial with ceiling),ps,paint,deadening et all in the age of ecus and scrappage.
Watch this space...coming soon.

[ringoism]

Originally Posted by ashis89

+1 to the VCross


VCross is a good suggestion though a tad long for the hills. You can also look for a MUX (it's even rarer).

Apart from your shortlist of Fortuner>>Scorpio>Getaway/Xenon, how about adding Pajero Sport to pool? It has good FE, is newer and would be reliable. I believe parts could be sourced from Delhi markets though you would have to confirm this.

Edit: How about retaining the Marshal for pure off-road use and grab a comfortable cruiser for long trips or good roads in the hills, say a 2WD Scorpio/XUV/Duster? Two warriors for the two different worlds?

MU-X is what my friend sellling the Safari had replaced it with... but both Isuzus out of budget.
Good thoughts, though... Pajero Sport probably great, but lack of local service/ showrooms here and Mizoram (& plenty of places in-between is a concern.

I too thought of a second car, but in the interest of simplification, want to avoid 2x parking, maintenance, insurance, etc... And besides, when we travel I DO intend to get into spots where the 4x4 would be useful.

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

Camper 4x4 with power steering - yellow plate. Down here in the Ghats , that is the preferred option to buy new from a utility perspective. Tea \ coffee gardens etc has run out of old M&M Pickups to buy.

For highway & hills & town = Scorpio. Gen 3 has lesser wheel articulation in the rear, they have tightened up the roll bar for better highway manners, the previous version has better articulation (I have them both). Get the 7 seat version with jump seats , they have good legroom in the second row.

Yellow-plates a pain due to the bi-annual inspections/taxes, of course. Nonetheless. standard Camper and Gypsy are by far the #1 4x4's around Manali.

Indeed am leaning strongly towards Scorpios.

Other than suspension, what could you mention as the relative merits / demerits of 2nd vs 3rd gen Scorpios? I have an option to buy either right now actually, both need some work, but plan to handle that mostly myself. Was impressed by a 2010 vlx 4wd (BSIII) I drove today. That terrible lack of responsiveness / low-end grunt the early mHawks had was there, BUT the car started immediately, ran smooth & quiet, didn't clatter or rattle or shake anywhere in the body on about the worst village link-road in the area... Steering on-center and devoid of play... all in a car with approx 350,000km's clocked, and that done full-time in the hills,. Wow.

Apart from these Scorpios could probably give the Aria another look. Sleek, safe, 4x4, and perhaps a little less problematic than Safaris often seem to be. Going to try and drive one tomorrow. I think they look ugly in most photos, but very nice in real life. Great, comfy cruiser with good vehicle dynamics and some 4wd capabilities.

-Eric

[ashis89]

Originally Posted by ringoism

Apart from these Scorpios could probably give the Aria another look. Sleek, safe, 4x4, and perhaps a little less problematic than Safaris often seem to be.

The Aria was known to be problematic and this was another reason for its failure, apart from high price. Most of the problems/niggles were electronics or poor QC across the car. Knowing you, you can fix most of the mechanical issues easily and hope the electronics are not in bad shape.

Another point worth noting is the low sales of this model which could impact parts availability. Lot of parts would be shared among Aria, Hexa and even Safari but for those exclusive ones might be a tough find.

Going to try and drive one tomorrow. I think they look ugly in most photos, but very nice in real life. Great, comfy cruiser with good vehicle dynamics and some 4wd capabilities.
-Eric

Yes, it would be a very good cruiser. The only con would be the weight of the vehicle which could act against its 4wd capabilities and also lack of low range, in case you ever need it.

[starter]

I would still suggest the first gen fortuner Eric.
Here is an example on tbhp classifieds - https://classifieds.team-bhp.com/buy...Fortuner.html/
Parts are easily available. Gives you around 12 kmpl on the highway.
Proper body on frame - full time 4wd and a low range for those tricky situations.

PS: You could pick one from the NCR for even cheaper price due to the 10 year ban.

[Kosfactor]

These vehicles see a lot of commercial use, therefore has been updated over the years - every model gets a refresh in time. So the Gen 2 Scorpio`s last refresh in 2013-2014 August should be your target in that range. The vehicle should pick up speeds well normally - usually its the vacuum modulator that controls the Turbo that is slow, change them out, its cheap.

Gen 3 pre 2017 has same engine as the previous one but its quieter inside and outside , the vehicle is lighter, feels much more agile. I prefer the Gen 3 for its performance although I like the looks and the ride of 2013 refresh. Tires are 17 inch, less side wall.

Get either a 2013 + refresh model or a Gen 3.

Check for the usual suspects.

Clutch - should not be hard nor any uneven kickback, it has a smooth hydraulic clutch. The concentric slave cylinder used to be a failure point in the older models, its good to change them out of if the vintage is unknown.

Brakes - should not be spongy or long travel, front rotors are slotted, check for any leaks near the master.

Engine - smooth, the engine cover should not vibrate excessively - worn out nvh dampers (cheap to replace), it uses a timing chain, as long as the oil is upto spec and changed properly, dont have to do anything to it. No blowby is expected, no noticeable oil consumption is expected either . Will pull away effortlessly as you release the clutch (else its the vacuum modulator controlling the VGT).

Steering - no play is expected.

Suspension - Torsion bar in Gen 2 Vs Coilovers in Gen 3.Tires are 17 inch in Gen 3 vs 16 in Gen 2 refresh.

This thread has a comparison between the two in their early days.

Link

[MB4DI]

Originally Posted by ringoism

2. Bolero Plus / hightop: Solves the space issues, but if they made them recently with 4x4, I believe it was only with the rattly old MDI-TC - a truly great engine but not really feeling like an upgrade vs. the Marshal. Not sure these were available with P/S & A/C, for that matter, and even if they were, where do I find a good private one that hasn't been hammered on in taxi duty?

-Eric

Hello Eric,

I am following your thread and reading it extensively. I am also searching for a similar long wheel base Bolero with stepped roof and 4WD capability. This thing does need couple of upgrades ranging from Rane PS from Camper/Pickup, HVAC including demister from ZLX version and comfortable seats atleast to complete the basic minimums of a daily commuting vehicle.

Another upgrade which I am contemplating to do is regarding the turbocharger. I felt quite thrilled after checking a friend's Bolero LX 4WD which was fitted with bigger turbo from SZ2600 Scorpio engine. There is a considerable difference in highway cruising as the vehicle easily touches 120 and RPM climbs at much faster rate.


Thanks