[KMT]

Mr DKG I am sorry for having a different opinion to yours! -LOL

Like many on this thread I too have been brought up on a staple of Mahindra Jeeps since the early 70's.
It frustrates me that in 2010 I have to be grateful to keep getting rebottled old stuff.

We dont have a choice for workhorses in estates as there is no other 4x4 that can pull pumps, trailers , labour etc.

Looking at the wholesale parts bin approach to development, I guess they can almost price the car on a Marginal Cost basis. It would have been nice to see some 21th century tech on the car (safety etc) and a bit more attention to presentation.

Anyway perhaps I have to remind myself that beggars (like me) cant be choosers, and that I have to be greateful for this wonderful machine.

[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by DKG

Its perfectly alright if some people here have driven the Thar offroad and vocally trash it. I would not waste a moment to persuade them otherwise, as I do realise that people's choices and tastes differ.

But to have never driven a product and then most categorically denounce it, in my view it doesn't say much about how objective the person is

Many, many posts have been made in this forum about the strengths and weaknesses of independent front suspension, full floating rear axle, rack and pinion steering, just to name a few things.

These are design considerations. They have inherent advantages and disadvantages. You do NOT have to drive a vehicle to know whether a design consideration is viable. And, a test drive is not going to tell you whether a particular application of a design is well done. Unless, of course, the vehicle just happens to rollover and die on you on a test drive. And how often does that happen? (Well actually, to me once. A North American jeep blew a head gasket as I drove it out of the dealer parking lot at a mind boggling speed of 30kph. I did not buy it, needless to say.)

To criticize a vehicle because of its design on paper before it hits production not only is fully warranted, it is also part of what engineers themselves do.

That being said, I have other criteria that I think are important in the case of the Thar. Here come the roses....

First, although I do not like it's design in the areas sited above, I think the components used possibly constitute a nice case of over-build. I think the IFS etc. was meant for heavier vehciles and therefore may be able to take more abuse than one might otherwise think.

Second, and this is a dangerous one, I have a certain amount of faith in B.D. pure and simple.

Here come the thorns....I am going to wait and see what happens with the Thar and with what else may come out of the M&M ovens. Meanwhile, I make do with my Invader. I was going to have painters write " Raid de Himalaya" on the back of it. But now I may change it to, "Invader, it ain't so bad."

[DKG]

Originally Posted by KMT

We dont have a choice for workhorses in estates as there is no other 4x4 that can pull pumps, trailers , labour etc.

All the international companies selling cars here in india have offerings that meet similar requirements elsewhere around the world. Only problem is they would all turn out to be 15 lacs plus if they were to offer the very latest in new tech and safety features. A brand new Hilux pickup truck with all the bells and whistles and 4x4 will be 20 lacs. Everyone knows there will be no market at that price point in India.

To me that something like the Thar exists and at a fraction of the cost is what I truly appreciate. Good luck hunting for a worthy alternative !!

Originally Posted by DirtyDan

You do NOT have to drive a vehicle to know whether a design consideration is viable.

I totally disagree. There is no black and white in design. The end result can be achieved through a variety of design options. I have driven sports cars with multi link and mc pherson struts. Both surprised me with supreme handling.

And, a test drive is not going to tell you whether a particular application of a design is well done.

Totally wrong there DD !! A test drive is the best way to tell whether a desired objective has been met

To criticize a vehicle because of its design on paper before it hits production not only is fully warranted, it is also part of what engineers themselves do.

Ultimately engineers don't decide what gets made, markets do. Am afraid you guys form a miniscule market which simply doesn't offer itself as a viable one to any mfg

I am going to wait and see what happens with the Thar and with what else may come out of the M&M ovens.

Not interested in an army disposal 550 totally refurbished? After all it meets your design criteria doesn't it DD?

[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by DKG

Totally wrong there DD !! A test drive is the best way to tell whether a desired objective has been met.

Not interested in an army disposal 550 totally refurbished? After all it meets your design criteria doesn't it DD?

As you yourself said, a customer test drive is a marketing tool. The average driver off the street probably does not even know what IFS, FFRA or rack and pinion steering are. He has no idea what are the INHERENT strengths and weaknesses of these design approaches. The only thing he knows is that he likes the ergonomics, he likes the power of the engine, he likes the handling. This certainly does not affirm the efficacy of IFS or much of anything else.

What came first, DKG, the chicken or the egg? The product or the market? If you really think you have the answer to that you should start a new world religion. This will take you away from your beloved refurbished jeep however. By the way, it is you who owns one of those, not me.

[star_aqua]

Originally Posted by DKG

Many people here had decided the Thar is not an offroader. For a few people here who have driven the car that conclusion no longer seems foregone !! You call our rejection of the premise that its not a offroader over praising? On that score what do we call your emphatic rejection of a vehicle without ever test driving it?

well, i did not see the same kinda praising by mumbai folks who test drove it. or i missed it somewhere?
please have a look at this video and observe carefully at 0:04

YouTube - Untitled

it was a simple boulder and it just missed the catcon. the THAR was bit lucky here. now think of a newbie who wants to explore a new world of offroading with this setup. i am not talking about hardcore offroading and THAR was not doing that in the above video.

[DKG]

Originally Posted by DirtyDan

This will take you away from your beloved refurbished jeep however. By the way, it is you who owns one of those, not me.

DD I am not so rigid when it comes to the technology that goes into cars so as to deny myself the opportunity to enjoy something that can excel both onroad and offroad. I am always open to being surprised by design. I'll give you an example. For years I never found diesels appealing. Until I drove the new BMW 530D. What a revelation. I've driven the petrol version too and frnakly would anyday pick the diesel over the petrol when it comes to this car. I've always loved petrols.

I learnt that a long time back when I realised different mfg's achieve spectacular results using different tech.

In summary I have a traditional offoader ie the CJ3B and hopefully will get a Thar soon. The day I can do stuff with the CJ3B which I cannot do with the Thar I would be very happy to report the news. I am neither pro nor against what some of you have been asking for. I just feel its pointless to so vehemently trash a car before you even drive it just because on paper it doesn't add up in your mind.

Just be open !

As for starting a new world religion, don't be too surprised if I actually do. I have a long lineage of "himalayan masters" running in my blood ! BTW I originate from the land where you now live

Originally Posted by star_aqua

i did not see the same kinda praising by mumbai folks who test drove it. or i missed it somewhere?

Vijay (hope I remembered your name correctly) many would like the Thar and many won't. That's cars and markets for you. Ultimately when you get to drive it assess for yourself if you personally find it appealing and an appropriate choice of offroader for your kind of use. All I have implied in my test report is I like it and am willing to buy it as my main offroad machine for long distance use. I know many others won't agree with my point of view. But that's okay, really !!

[harshavardhan]

Mahindra could have launched a SWB version (< 4.0m Length / 2-Bucket seats in front / bench at the rear) of the Scorpio, priced at about a lac cheaper than the comparable variant to the LWB / regular Scorpio. That would have sufficed. Agreed that MM 540 body style has takers, but with a Scorpio SWB, there could have been better economies of scale.

OT: If TATA were to release the SWB Safari which was showcased at Geneva Show (If my memory is correct . . .) with 2.2L Dicor, then it will set the cat among pigeons in the SWB SUV segment...

-Harshavardhan

[Blue Thunder]

Originally Posted by DKG

... Ask Skoda about what they think of the Octavia's success in India. Do you know that Skoda is the last car you think of when trying to buy cars abroad?...

Originally Posted by Muzungu

...i always wondered why people make a huge cry about skoda in india, when its not even looked at outside india!...

Sorry for going OT, but couldn't help this clarification

The Skoda example is very wrong in this context.

Please check the history of Skoda. Pre-1991, the Skoda brand was the laughing stock of the automotive world. In 1991, it became a Volkswagen subsidiary. VW now has 4 brands : Volkswagen, Audi, SEAT and Skoda. Build quality and design improved manifold. Skoda started operations in India in 2001. Hence, as a result of this , the Skodas that we have been getting in India are essentially 'Volkswagen' under the guise of 'Skoda'. No wonder they were best-sellers when they were launched in India. They share a lot in common with the VW Passat. In fact, the latest Octavias share the floorpan with the Golf Mk 5.

Nowadays, the brand image of Skoda (due to being a VW group subsidiary) in western Europe has gone up considerably.

So, PLEASE stop referring to the Skoda brand in a derogatory way.


(PS : This is with reference to just the product quality, not the quality of the after-sales support of Skoda in India).

[DKG]

Originally Posted by Blue Thunder

So, PLEASE stop referring to the Skoda brand in a derogatory way.

Regardless of what you would like to believe, for years the brand was the laughing stock of the automotive world.

I am fully aware of the takeover of the company by VW and subsequent improvements in mechanicals and design.

The car has always struggled on the international markets to overcome the image it carries in so many people's minds. The perception no doubt is changing, albeit slowly. Its basically viewed as a poorer man's VW. Another brand even lower in the spectrum from Skoda (in VW's lineup of marques) is Seat, a spanish brand. Actually I feel VW should launch Seat here !!

The fact remains that no one thought the car (Skoda) would do so well in India. It has come as a complete surprise to many including I'm sure Skoda executives.

The reference to Skoda is to illustrate that what works abroad may not work here in India (actually the reverse in this case)

I don't think any one is referring to the brand in a derrogatory manner. That aspect of its history is a fact, and I'm pretty sure the brand still suffers a low aspirational value in Europe.

Fact remains no one aspires to buy a Skoda the way they do in India, whether you choose to accept that fact or not is ofcourse your choice !!

[MileCruncher]

Originally Posted by DKG

Fact remains no one aspires to buy a Skoda the way they do in India, whether you choose to accept that fact or not is ofcourse your choice !!

Very true.
In the UK Octavia is the favourite with Taxi guys just as Indica is here. Doesn't mean that normal guys don't buy it, but aspiration wise, you know where it is placed. The Superb is placed slightly better. The cars from Skoda stable that finds many private homes is the Roomster & Fabia

[star_aqua]

Originally Posted by MileCruncher

In the UK Octavia is the favourite with Taxi guys just as Indica is here. Doesn't mean that normal guys don't buy it, but aspiration wise, you know where it is placed. The Superb is placed slightly better. The cars from Skoda stable that finds many private homes is the Roomster & Fabia

Sir, in germany Merc E-class is the favourite with taxi guys. So this means it is not placed well?? TAXIs in abroad are not seen in the same way as we see it in INDIA. People don't care which one is used as TAXI and which one is not when they want to buy one. It happens only in INDIA. Skoda octavia still sells in germany and its like maruti in Czech republic and you dont see any other cars. but it is not so cheap here and prices are comparable with VW sedans. 1.9tdi is what FE concious people prefer which consumes 5.5ltrs for 100km with a average speeds of 120-160kmph. 2.0tdi is what others prefer which is more powerfull and less Fuel efficient.

[Blue Thunder]

Originally Posted by DKG

Regardless of what you would like to believe...

'What I would like to believe' is not important...I was just stating some facts.

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Dear all - may I request you to come back to the title of this thread which is - MAHINDRA THAR - DROOL QUOTIENT. I was looking forward to some excellent photo shopping.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[DKG]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

I was looking forward to some excellent photo shopping

That actually was the original intention of the thread. Unfortunately I haven't picked up those skills but could someone here please show options for the Thar in terms of what we could do with it to enhance its appeal?

[Tejas@perioimpl]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

Dear all - may I request you to come back to the title of this thread which is - MAHINDRA THAR - DROOL QUOTIENT. I was looking forward to some excellent photo shopping.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

The best way to do this, is to shift this thread out of the 4x4 section. All the photoshop boys don't visit the 4x4 area.