[Tool]

yep.. absolutely bro...B&T
the 99.9 % of the cases we do in 5.1 majority of the panning and frequencies are being delivered through the full range speakers.. however... when we make FX.. as is when a car will go from left to right on your screen... we do employ a certain amount of panning on the sub frequecies from left to right... so in this case people with a stereo bass setup here will benifit.. ... but that is very little.. majority of the effect is through the use of the full range speakers..as u stated correctely... and the .1 sub in GOOD systems in mono is more than capable of delivering the right amout of low end......
hope this helped guys...
2nd smiley.. telling you... IM LOVING IT !!!!

[jkdas]

And will you guys be coming to a conclusion soon?

Me Gonna do PHD. Can I use this thread posts for my synopsis?

[kb100]

Originally Posted by low_bass_makker

Rest I think KB100 will do what his GURU will tell him to do.......So let us stay out of this and let the Guru and Shishy do the talking.....

LBM...If I had to just ask "my" guru (whoever THAT is - sheeesh!) I would have used the PM... Trust you will also resort to the same!! If you are done contributing fine!.. But pls dont dissuade others from doing so!

Why do I get a feeling you still have an axe to grind as far as certain individuals are concerned??

Some of us like me are here to learn! In all humility, being cursed with an inquisitive brain, I have a compulsive urge to understand what makes things tick and hence attempt to ask whenever I get the opportunity - and at go seeking when I dont get one!

I have been immensly benefited by everyone here - Including you!!

Trust we can go back to discussing subs/placements/treatments etc now!!

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by jkdas

And will you guys be coming to a conclusion soon?

Me Gonna do PHD. Can I use this thread posts for my synopsis?

(1) NO. That would be against the great tradition of the ICE Forum.

(2) What's your thesis on? "An Exercise in Futility" ?

kb's right. There are too many egos. Sujit you're better off talking to Anees or Subair of Emperor. Very nice guys - I met them this time around. Totally unassuming and very knowledgable.

[Tool]

Originally Posted by Tool

hello.. umm jst my 2 bits..1st smiley comming up ... i do a lot of work in the mastering department.. and having worked with people like lezz lewis .. shanker mahadevan , ar rehman .. etc.. all have come to our studio( purple haze @ bandra ) to work...
.. now.. we do use stereo bass .. but only in movies.. when we are doing 5.1 and above...not when we do music... when we master music.. agreed that we do make the bass in stereo... as in both channels.. left and right.. both .. but the Balance is always centered...(end output = MONO). ... but its just a rule that we all follow unless we do movies in 5.1... .. or unless the production department wants different......or unless the artist who made the track wanted different... but thats a very RARE case... 99 % of the stuff mastered is mastered with bass ( freq below 80 hz) as stereo but with the final outcome as mono as i explained (everything above 80 Hhz usually has panning effects on it.. hence you notice the pan effect out of the mid range and high's more).. so.. its all really about the MUSIC !!!!! hehehe.. Different generes have different ideas.. like trance.. its all ok.. do what you want !!! but you wouldnt finD shanker mahadevan DEAD ...doing half the stuff we trance guys do... .. so yeah.. its all about the music baby !!!!!!!
but as a personal choice.. id keep mono.. cause in a car.. bass which is Omni-Directional in any case !!!.. is just exactly that ... OMNI-directional.. cause the distances required to effectively percive left and right are tooo smalll.. and to add to that.. the fact that they are in a BOOT...
hmm all this is really enough to really spark off a new thread...
but yeah before anyone gets critical of this... all i am saying is.. its all done .. bass in stereo and bass in stereo which equals MONO.. and all kinds of variations are out there.. its part of the artists Creativity ....as to how path breaking he wants to be... but basically.. most of the music out there is like i explained...) bass as stereo=mono) .. this is just my view from the eyes of a engineer... i mean .. i make this nonsense... !!!!
heheheh hope this helped.. or confused even more.. let me know...
time for 2nd smiley...
BOOOOM

like i said

but as a personal choice.. id keep mono.. cause in a car.. bass which is Omni-Directional in any case !!!.. is just exactly that ... OMNI-directional.. cause the distances required to effectively percive left and right are tooo smalll.. and to add to that.. the fact that they are in a BOOT...

[Jatt]

WEll.......... Mono works better as compared to Stereo

[low_bass_makker]

Ok people let see this from a diff angle. Or make it a new Question.

If we have two subs in car they must be in a boot thats for sure and kept in left and right side extreme position. Now we will play only one sub no mono or stereo just one sub and ask some to sit in the front seat and ask him will he able to make out which one is playing left or right??????????????

[gunbir]

Originally Posted by Tool

when we master music.. agreed that we do make the bass in stereo... as in both channels.. left and right.. both .. but the Balance is always centered...(end output = MONO). ... but its just a rule that we all follow unless we do movies in 5.1... .. or unless the production department wants different......or unless the artist who made the track wanted different... but thats a very RARE case...

Wow!!! For a change, this weekends been like super active here. KB100, what was that again... something you said about the gurus getting sloshed over the weekend and only attaining 'verticality' on Monday. Jb and I work on Sundays... And today we were rewarded too... Jb, Driven and I were treated to a homemade speciality meal by one of the forum members. He knows who he is... Thanks man... it was fingerlickinglicious...

One more thing, I feel immense pride in the level of discussion some of our threads have... like this one... Less than one year ago, the topics were rarely beyond the usual Sony 504, Pioneer 306 blah blah blah. The quality of this thread is as good if not better than most threads on international ICE forums.

Back on track...

Some very interesting points. Tool, great input. Quite interesting.

LBM, you're a little off target, we are talking about the iDQ10. which requires a sealed box of .25 to .55cuft NET volume. In a 0.5cuft sealed enclosure the iDQ10 is linear and very musical. And quite capable of low bass. We have end users running a single iDQ10 sub in a .5cuft sealed enclosure off 170w only... in an Endeavour. Very musical and quite loud. Not everyone wants ultra low bass or SPL. The iDQ subs usually find favour with music lovers who DONT want a sub in their car, cuz they think all subs sound like the typical low dhummm dhummm made famous by Pioneer. For a change, they DONT want their subs to be heard outside their car and they dont decide a sub based on how far it can be heard outside their car. Thank God for real music, and thank God for people who love real music.

Stereo or Mono subs. The cases have been made. We all can choose whats right for us. Some agree stereo subs may have their place in purist setups, some agree mono is the best way. To each their own. Like Sam says, 'My moms Dal will ALWAYS be better than yours'...

As for me, I have heard both setups, playing my kind of music, in my own car, with my own ears. The difference between both setups is quite obvious on some music and questionable on other. But personally, I like that. I like to be able to hear the artists subtle creativity, and be able to know when the artist or his engineer have put in something that is not evident on most systems. Now like Tool said, thats rare and may be just 1% of the music out there. But thats whats special for me, finding that one album once in a blue moon that was recorded some 30 odd years ago, and still sounds better than most contemporary big label, big studio digital recordings. I have been running a single sub for a while now and am itching to go back to a stereo sub setup. Wont be long now...

In the end, beyond discussion, like Jb said... Hear and you shall Believe...

[Tool]

hey gunbir.. thanx a lot bro
umm you are right.. most of the GOLDEN stuff is in stereo.. ahh the good old analog days 2nd smily.. i love ANALOG enuff for even my 2nd smily .. seeeee .. hehehe but yes.. some of the big names just off the top of my hat... cause we use this material to tune our own ears hehehe... they are.. pink floyd.(absolute Gods). the doors.. a few albums... the greatfull dead... louis armstrong.....jannis joplin... and recently .. talvin singh.. in his album HA.. i know cause its mastered by me and my partner.. but getting back to the Golden Stuff....this is back in the day when RIBBON ruled supreme.... bro gunbir.. this is when a stereo setup really will killl for sure ....and yes... i FULLLY agree that stereo is the way to go in a FULL ON HIGH END SETUP.... i wish those days would come back.... getting into ribbons.. bro gunbir... saw some hertz comps on the site..... 3 way... fingerlinkinlicious hehehehehe can i come listen if i ever am in delhi ??

as not team-bhp.. THIS PLACE RULESSSSSS AHH!!!!!! ALL HEIL TEAM-BHP.. man i wish we had 3 smilies.. hehehe and i must second gunbir.. the quality of this forum is second to none !!!!!!
boom everyone....

[gunbir]

Originally Posted by Tool

and recently .. talvin singh.. in his album HA.. i know cause its mastered by me and my partner..

Even Talvins OK album was engineered well. But Ha has been our favourite for a while now. Great work...

[low_bass_makker]

Originally Posted by gunbir

LBM, you're a little off target, we are talking about the iDQ10.

Thanka man for correctting me I though we are discussing the two 12 inchs here. If it is 10 inch then a single box would be good enough for both the sub with a voulme of .78 for each.

[Sam Kapasi]

Originally Posted by Steeroid

(1) NO. That would be against the great tradition of the ICE Forum.

(2) What's your thesis on? "An Exercise in Futility" ?

kb's right. There are too many egos. Sujit you're better off talking to Anees or Subair of Emperor. Very nice guys - I met them this time around. Totally unassuming and very knowledgable.

Oh come on Steer, Thats a bit sceptical isn't it? I dont think there are too many egos here, maybe a couple only.

And honestly it's pretty obvious the ones that know what they're talking about are doing so for the love of audio and a good debate that everybody, all of us, is learning from.
I for one am thouroughly enjoying this debate and do not think it's "futile" or "pointless"

Also this thread has a 5 star rating and it's not because of the humour in it.

[santosh.s]

Originally Posted by kb100

You will have to MEET the guy... He is very much in Bangy ... and isconsidered a poineer in Car audio by everyone... and a legend by some!

PM me if you are intersted and I will be glad to give you his name and contact details!!

No need, if his logic was something what "philipreji" has mentioned. It is quite understood that the amp must boost the voltage level before feeding speakers. Basically its function is similar to transformers in AC circuits or gearbox in the car itself.

[kb100]

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

Oh come on Steer, Thats a bit sceptical isn't it? I dont think there are too many egos here, maybe a couple only.

And honestly it's pretty obvious the ones that know what they're talking about are doing so for the love of audio and a good debate that everybody, all of us, is learning from.
I for one am thouroughly enjoying this debate and do not think it's "futile" or "pointless"

Also this thread has a 5 star rating and it's not because of the humour in it.

I have been benefitted immensly .. not just by this thread by this forum... Though the forum is also another reason why I am flat broke! LOL

Ego's are a good thing to have!.. I have a HUGE one! ... how else will things around us improve?

[navin]

what a weekend!

conclusions as I see it....

1. it is great to have stereo bass so some recordings (few as they might be) offer the listener the ability to enjoy stereo bass so if you are wiling to sacrifice some loss of max SPL stereo bass is nicer to have esp if you are interested in have a system that can resolve stereo bass in certain recordings.

2. when left and right bass signals are summed there is a slight level increase partly due to removal of losses due to phase; and partly due to the fact that both woofers (in a dual woofer mono setup) will be producing all bass frequencies reagardless of which channel they originated in.

3. 2 channel home audio and car audio are similar yet the laws of acoustics (as applied to them) differ becasue
a) in a home the subswoofers (if stereo subs are used) are usally further apart than in a car and/or the use of large stereo speakers that cover the entire audible spectrum is physically possible.
b) in a home there is no road noise and other distractions
c) most good home audio installations offer the listener the ability to better localise the music.

then maybe the best of both worlds is...

Use 3 woofers. 2 smaller woofers (6-8") that play down to 40/45Hz in stereo and a single 12-21" woofer that reproduces a mono (summed) signal.

Why 40Hz. 42Hz is the Low E on a bass guitar. I find it easy to localise bass down to this freqency. Below this locallization becomes increasingly diffcult till at about 20Hz tests showed on a 50% chance of localizing bass correctly.