[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by directinjection

we always remained dependent on the Soviets for MiG spares whose supply had interruptions! In fact, all versions of the MiG 21 operated by IAF (PF, FL, PFM, M, MF, BIS, etc.) had their origin in the Soviet Union, not in India. [

Sorry for the nitpick, but the IAF never operated the PFM. The Type 74 MiG-21F-13 was the first and the Type 75 MiG-21bis was the last, with Type 76 PF, Type 77 FL, Type 88 M & Type 96 MF being the intervening variants. The Bison was of course the upgraded Type 75 MiG-21bis.

The trainers(U/UM/US) were all direct supply with a few examples being bought from the Romanian Air Force in the 90s or early 2000s . A couple of those trainers sported the Romanian camouflage scheme for quote some time after delivery.

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

Sorry for the nitpick, but the IAF never operated the PFM. The Type 74 MiG-21F-13 was the first and the Type 75 MiG-21bis was the last, with Type 76 PF, Type 77 FL, Type 88 M & Type 96 MF being the intervening variants. The Bison was of course the upgraded Type 75 MiG-21bis.

Thank you for your feedback skanchan95! My reference to MiG 21 PFM was based on the information given in Encyclopedia of Air Warfare published by Salamandar Books Ltd. UK (1977 edition), a copy of which I have had since 1978! Page 197 is devoted to warplanes of the Indian Air Force and the MiG 21 with tiger stripe pattern (?) colour scheme, having tail number C992 is described as the PFM model. (See photos below.)

After reading your post, I did some web search and the same plane C992 is described in a Twitter post by one Stefan Knippschild as

"MiG-21FL Fishbed D (Type 77), a downgraded Export version of the MiG-21PFM and built under license in India by HAL until 1973."

His post has another photo of the same plane which seems to be from an Indian government publication. Link here:

https://twitter.com/StefanKnippsch3/...373888/photo/2

C992 is also on display at the IAF museum at Palam with the same colour scheme and is described by the photographer Arjun Sarup as MiG 21 FL. Link here:

https://www.planespotters.net/photo/...evich-mig-21fl

So you are right and the Encyclopedia is incorrect; thank you for the correction! This should be brought to the notice of the publisher, if it still exists!

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by directinjection

So you are right and the Encyclopedia is incorrect; thank you for the correction! This should be brought to the notice of the publisher, if it still exists!

You are welcome. The publishers back then had limited access to information, even I have some old books that contain incorrect information.

The second generation of MiG-21s had the following variants. Externally, the looked very similar with a few changes and it is easy to mistake them for the other.

MiG-21PF (Type 76) - operated by the IAF alongside first gen Type 74 MiG-21F-13s in the '65 war
MiG-21FL (Type 77) - called Trishul in IAF service and license manufactured by HAL from 1966 onwards and played a stellar role in the '71 war
MiG-21PFS (Type 94)
MiG-21PFM (Type 94A)



The MiG-21PF, PFS & FL had one piece forward opening canopy like this(an IAF FL), but had different tail fine types depending on the variant:


while the PFM(last and most modern 2nd gen MiG-21 variant) had a side opening canopy (a North Korean AF example) like the later third & fourth gen MiG-21s like MiG-21M & bis and a bigger tail fin like the FL.


Except for the canopy, the MiG-21FL and PFM were virtually the same. Easy to see how they mistook an IAF FL for a PFM.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by directinjection

Thank you for your feedback skanchan95! My reference to MiG 21 PFM was based on the information given in Encyclopedia of Air Warfare published by Salamandar Books Ltd. UK (1977 edition), a copy of which I have had since 1978!

So you are right and the Encyclopedia is incorrect; thank you for the correction! This should be brought to the notice of the publisher, if it still exists!

Interesting, I have the same encyclopaedia. Not sure since when, but probably about as old as your copy!

Jeroen

[BoneCollector]

GE Aerospace has signed a MOU with HAL for production of GE's F414 Jet engines in India. These engines are used in the Tejas MK2 program. Tejas uses a GE F404.

[Jeroen]

Earlier this week I had an appointment in Aalsmeer, next to Schiphol Amsterdam Airport. In Aalsmeer you will find the Aviationmegastor. (https://www.aviationmegastore.com/en/). I have been coming there for decades, ever since I was in my early teens.

Whenever I find myself near I will always try to visit it. I noticed they had a whole section on the IAF. I am sure you will be familiar with many, if not all of these books. But for me, it was mostly new. Very interesting!

[arijitkanrar]

Saw this short documentary on YouTube.
Not sure how authentic this is but if true, its a glaring example of how government short-sightedness is having an impact on our home grown fighter industry half a century later.
If only we persevered, we'd probably be at par with other global powers in fighter jet technology if not rivalling them.

As the author so beautifully mentions in the video: "For the want of an engine, an industry was lost".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgeNkMmuQ3I

[ads11]

Originally Posted by arijitkanrar

Saw this short documentary on YouTube.
Not sure how authentic this is but if true, its a glaring example of how government short-sightedness is having an impact on our home grown fighter industry half a century later.
If only we persevered, we'd probably be at par with other global powers in fighter jet technology if not rivalling them.

As the author so beautifully mentions in the video: "For the want of an engine, an industry was lost".

https://www.Youtube.com/watch?v=LgeNkMmuQ3I

If you go back far enough on this thread (or maybe a dedicated one on it), I'm sure you'll find plenty on this very topic that's been shared already by V.Narayan. It's how I came to know about the story of Kurt Tank and the Marut. I think in the aviation world there's abundant what if's we can speak about, and this certainly is up there at least when it comes to Indian aviation as a big what-if. The real shame is that a lot of the learnings from the whole experience seem to have been forgotten.

That being said, I had this video come up on my Youtube home page as well, though never got round to giving it a watch.

[dragracer567]

So, finally, better sense has prevailed and the IAF is planning to make 100 further orders of the LCA Tejas Mk1A taking the total number of orders to 183. To that end, HAL will ramp up their production to 24 units annually within the next 18 months - meaning that the entire order would be completed within the next 8 years.

Offcourse, this isn't formally announced and HAL's promises tend to fall short. This is badly needed given that the entire bunch of 4th gen fighters such as the Mirages, Jaguars & Mig-29s will reach their retirement age in the 2030s (earlier for the Jaguars) with no replacement in site as the Tejas Mk2, AMCA & TEDBF are still in development and the MRCA competition is going nowhere!

link

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

This is badly needed given that the entire bunch of 4th gen fighters such as the Mirages, Jaguars & Mig-29s will reach their retirement age in the 2030s (earlier for the Jaguars)

These are replacement jets for just Mig 21 and Jaguars.

Mig 29s and Mirages will be flogged for an even longer time, and likely to be replaced by Rafales or Tejas Mark 2. IAF wants to keep MRCA competition alive because they do not fully trust ADA/HAL to deliver Tejas Mark 2 on time. Else, Govt/IAF might just order Rafales in 18 or 36 units from time to time, and give HAL a long rope.

Another possibility is transfer of Navy's Mig 29k to IAF while they get Rafale Ms. After all, these are relatively new jets (delivery started from 2009) and the same jets will see less strain on components when taking off/landing on airstrips rather than aircraft carriers
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india...vqOuLNoYO.html

AMCA is a replacement for Su 30 MKIs. After all, IAF started getting deliveries from 2002. These older units will be retired first and replaced with AMCA

[fhdowntheline]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Earlier this week I had an appointment in Aalsmeer, next to Schiphol Amsterdam Airport. In Aalsmeer you will find the Aviationmegastor. (https://www.aviationmegastore.com/en/). I have been coming there for decades, ever since I was in my early teens.

Whenever I find myself near I will always try to visit it. I noticed they had a whole section on the IAF. I am sure you will be familiar with many, if not all of these books. But for me, it was mostly new. Very interesting!

Attachment 2478390

Attachment 2478391

Attachment 2478392

Its a bit of a shame really, such books should also adorn the bookstores in India. But all we get are bizarre mythologies, fly-by-night experts on self motivation and biographies of self-exaggerated celebs. You cant find a single science/technology book of any decent quality on the book shelves these days. Hopefully the success of Chandrayaan missions may change something in the Indian mindset.

PS- that's where I admire the public library system in the US. I spent hours during weekends reading on all kinds of aviation books on specific aircraft types.

[benu9714]

"HAL's promises tend to fall short"

I do not profess to have any expertise on aviation matter, but IMHO, I think this is a little bit unfair on HAL, as regards the Tejas.

This aircraft is not built by HAL alone. A number of other organisations are involved, each of which builds a piece of the aircraft, such as the nose, mid-section, wings, tail etc. There are also several other suppliers of the various highly technical systems - such as avionics, radar, etc.

Many different companies, each having multiple suppliers, are involved, and HAL puts all the pieces together to build the aircraft. Increasing the production rate is possible only when every organisation, big and small, gears up its production capability to meet the expanded volume.

We are talking about a full supply chain here, not just HAL.

So, lets cut HAL a little slack, please?

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

Another possibility is transfer of Navy's Mig 29k to IAF while they get Rafale Ms. After all, these are relatively new jets (delivery started from 2009) and the same jets will see less strain on components when taking off/landing on airstrips rather than aircraft carriers
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india...vqOuLNoYO.html

Not sure if that's possible. Only 22 of the 26 Rafales purchased by the Navy are carrier-capable - barely enough to fill one carrier out of the two. The Navy is also short when (or if) the TEDBF ever becomes a reality!

Originally Posted by benu9714

"HAL's promises tend to fall short"

We are talking about a full supply chain here, not just HAL.

So, lets cut HAL a little slack, please?

True and it's exactly the reason why HAL shouldn't promise unrealistic timelines when there are so many such complex factors at play. This is because the procurement for the IAF and the Navy is being planned based on these unrealistic timelines which means they are being forced to flog ancient planes as the babus/politicians won't let us buy foreign jets (like MRCA) since the domestic ones are just over the horizon as per HAL's overly optimistic timelines.

[sandeepmdas]

Not really relevant to the ongoing discussion.

I went to see the static display organised by the Southern Air Command in Trivandrum yesterday. Saw this Su-30 and noted the tyre appears almost worn out.

Don't know which make but I think the nosewheel was MRF.

[dragracer567]

A quick update from SAAB - one of the competing manufacturers for the MRCA contract. So this is an early indication that the RFP is coming up despite the increased orders for the Tejas Mk 1A. Even in the best-case scenario, the selection and contract negotiation is expected to take years with even more time needed before the first Indian-made MRCA starts flying - perhaps by the mid-2030s which is a full 3.5 decades after this requirement was put out - China has developed 2 stealth fighters during the time it took us to select an aircraft for purchase, aircraft available off the market!

The Rafale will almost surely win this unless Lockheed Martin decides to offer the F35 which is highly likely!