[Reinhard]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Sorry I am now far off topic from combat aircraft. This is a good time to have Su-30MKIs and Mirage 2000s patrolling on the northern border.

Yes too!

Heard yesterday again that there is an express request to procure 20-21 good condition Mig29s and a dozen Su30MKIs by the IAF. I hope things are pushed fast & the planes start arriving next year (since the Fulcrums are already built and in mothball). Of course this is a must not for what China is doing but simply due to how much the squadron strengths would have dwindled further by next year.

Unless there is a decision made for a large order of MRA like Rafale or so - I feel India should simply have a contract of making 6 to 8 Flanker MKIs per year for another decade. These are good planes afterall. And these numbers would keep on making up for attrition / accident losses of hulls as well as slowly add into the front-line combat squadron strength. A longish deal of 5-8 years rather than these knee jerk shopping lists like emergency Mig29 procurement etc, shows better planning.

[fhdowntheline]

Why not lease a few Rafales as well as the Migs ? Why cant we adopt a more flexible approach to maintaining fleet levels while production is coping up ? We have leased planes and submarines in the past if I am not mistaken.

[Reinhard]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

Why not lease a few Rafales as well as the Migs ? Why cant we adopt a more flexible approach to maintaining fleet levels while production is coping up ? We have leased planes and submarines in the past if I am not mistaken.

Submarine leases are primarily for getting sailors, officers & engineers trained and exposed to the technology that is not yet available locally. India leased the 2 INS Chakra nuke subs from Russia primarily for such purposes.

Arms leases are very ineffective in real power projection / combat use. There are restrictions on the purposes for which the equipment can be used. Since such things hardly remain confidential, the enemies already know the limitations applicable even if inventory remains on paper.

Rafale won't be available for lease since France doesn't have any surplus stock of it. Mig-29 - some of them may be available in mothball but the commercials for a Mig29 lease won't be beneficial for Russia / India both. Buying the planes outright when available readily is the best thing to do for IAF. Especially since ground staff and maintenance capability for this airframe exists to a large extent (the version may be different so some cross training will be needed of course).

Fighter wings are the first line of defense generally and so the attrition losses tend to be high. Leasing this equipment is useful only if its for ceremonial duties and not combat.

[Alfresco]

An interesting read.

A decade after the end of World War Two, Canada built a jet which pushed technology to its limits. But its demise showed why smaller nations found it difficult to compete in the Jet Age.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...unts-a-country

[ads11]

Originally Posted by Alfresco

An interesting read.

A decade after the end of World War Two, Canada built a jet which pushed technology to its limits. But its demise showed why smaller nations found it difficult to compete in the Jet Age.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...unts-a-country

Oh the Avro Arrow is pretty much up there with the YF-23 in terms of N American military aviation what if's (think of it as akin to our own HAL Marut in the sense of what could've been if we'd stuck with it). You'll regularly see folks pine for what could've been for Canadian aviation. Speaking of which, with Bombardier essentially divesting entirely from their aviation sector (regional jet business to Mitsubishi and the promising high profile C-series taken over by Airbus to become the A220), I guess that's that for them. A bit of cruel irony because in a post COVID aviation sector, the C-series/A220 could be quite the Goldilocks aircraft in terms of being just the right combination of size and range for many airlines. Oh well hindsight is 2020 and I'm digressing.

[Gansan]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Forget about the bureaucrats, even the Army top brass

Has the same thing happened again in Ladakh now, more or less? Were we caught off guard?

[DrPriyankT]

This is a nice article, explaining the events of 27th February 2019.
http://fullafterburner.weebly.com/ae...rmish-analysis

[Gansan]

Till a few days ago this page was showing 17 Tejas in service, but suddenly shows 40 in service. How come HAL delivered additional 23 jets so quickly?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...itary_aircraft

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by ads11

why aren't they being made by HAL? I thought the last tranche were built by HAL to start with.

Originally Posted by Reinhard

Heard yesterday again that there is an express request to procure 20-21 good condition Mig29s and a dozen Su30MKIs by the IAF. I hope things are pushed fast & the planes start arriving next year (since the Fulcrums are already built and in mothball). Of course this is a must not for what China is doing but simply due to how much the squadron strengths would have dwindled further by next year.

At a time like this, when there is urgent need to procure fighters and attack helicopters, HAL still awaits the contract for Tejas Mk.1As and the LCH, which as dragracer rightly pointed out hasn't even been named yet!!!

In contrast, the LCA was named Tejas by former PM A B Vajpayee all those years ago!!!HAL is building 15 LCHs from their own internal funds. Where is the government support when it is needed the most by HAL? The Tejas performed very well in the trials at Leh, where even the mighty Super Hornet and Gripen failed in some parameters.

And yet, see the irony, in view of the chinese threat nothing seems to have been done to accelerate the procurement of more Tejas Mk.1A fighters . I am all for "Aatmnirbhar" Bharat & "Make in India" but if the govt does not support it fully, what is the point of such catchy cliches? And then of course you have these firms who have no experience in manufacturing military equipment who have messed up their orders royally!!! Just look what Ambani Jr. did with his Coast Guard ships order and yet he dreams about manufacturing Rafales in India!!!! Without the right government support and most importantly, the "right" firms being engaged in manufacturing defence equipment or for that matter any product, I am afraid "Aatmnirbhar Bharat" will end up just being a pipe dream.

The situation in Ladakh reminded me of this old painting by Derek Bunce that has been printed in No. 5 Sqdn's History book - Jags coming in low, in between the valleys to drop BL.755 cluster bombs on a truck convoy. Something that could very well become a reality if things escalate.

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

Why not lease a few Rafales as well as the Migs ? Why cant we adopt a more flexible approach to maintaining fleet levels while production is coping up ? We have leased planes and submarines in the past if I am not mistaken.

Nuclear Submarines were leased, but aircraft were probably never leased by the IAF or IN...except perhaps a few Boeing 737-200s from Indian Airlines.

[fhdowntheline]

I thought one of the two: IL-38s or TU-142 (MR) planes were leased from Russia ? On a related note, RM traveling to Russia to supposedly attend the Grand parade. I am sure there is much more to it than meets the eye.

[Reinhard]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

I thought one of the two: IL-38s or TU-142 (MR) planes were leased from Russia ? On a related note, RM traveling to Russia to supposedly attend the Grand parade. I am sure there is much more to it than meets the eye.

Indian Naval Air Arm operated both - The IL-38 and the TU-142. Both are "owned" and not "leased". Used to be seen around INS Humsa often in Goa. And some times at Port Blair also.
The mighty TU-142 was retired over last few years and replaced by the newer P8-Poseidon. IL-38s I think are still in service. P8 are now a regular sighting at Port Blair airport.

[DragonHawk]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

Why not lease a few Rafales as well as the Migs ? Why cant we adopt a more flexible approach to maintaining fleet levels while production is coping up ? We have leased planes and submarines in the past if I am not mistaken.

Provision for leasing has been introduced in the draft of DPP - 2020. However, this comes with certain clauses and most notably

- Leasing is permitted in two categories—where the lessor is an Indian entity and is the owner of the assets and where the lessor is a global entity.
- The provision of leasing in the draft DPP governs military equipment that is not deployed during the war—transport fleets, trainers, and simulators.

If you see the positive side, leasing can be a good option. Not only it will help us save some money but it will also save the flying hours of the owned aircraft for wars whereas the leased ones doing the duty of crew training and going on tactical missions like exercises abroad.

[ads11]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

On a related note, RM traveling to Russia to supposedly attend the Grand parade. I am sure there is much more to it than meets the eye.

I wouldn't necessarily read much into it. The parade to celebrate the end of WW2 for Russia is their biggest historic commemoration and they tend to use it as an opportunity to invite dignitaries not just from the allied countries that were involved in the fight at the time but also other closely allied nations like India. If memory serves right, even in the immediate aftermath of the Crimea grab, the parade coincided with the 70th anniversary, so although the heads of state of the US, France, Germany, Canada and UK were invited, they couldn't attend (NATO obviously took a grave stance against the Crimean shenanigans). However those nations still sent a more junior official instead as it was still an event honouring the fallen from WW2 or had their high level leaders visit Russia on a separate day to lay wreathes.
So I imagine India sending the defence minister could be simply this years high profile attendee especially as it's the 75th anniversary. The President attended on behalf of India 5 years ago so it had to be a similarly high level cabinet minister this time.

That being said however, if Rajnath Singh is there, you'd think it would be an excellent time to get deals done but I'm not sure how feasible that is considering the plethora of dignitaries from other nations who'll be present for a day or two. Russian bureaucrats will pretty much have their plates full. Any major deal will likely have been sorted well in advance with Rajnath simply signing on the dotted line and smiling for the cameras - so I can't see it being the opportunity to seal the SOS deal for more airframes as stated earlier. But let's see.

Originally Posted by DragonHawk

Provision for leasing has been introduced in the draft of DPP - 2020.
- Leasing is permitted in two categories—where the lessor is an Indian entity and is the owner of the assets and where the lessor is a global entity.
- The provision of leasing in the draft DPP governs military equipment that is not deployed during the war—transport fleets, trainers, and simulators.

I have to say when I came across the draft DPP the leasing provision was certainly a interesting work around our notorious bureaucracy for shall we say less high profile platforms. On the first of those points, I think it goes to show we won't be contracting out services like aerial refuelling or adversary air in the manner it happens for the USAF for eg. I could be reading that point wrong though

[whitecloud]

The MMRCA tender is going nowhere while the IAF squadrons are depleting day by day. As per former ACM Dhanoa, the SU30 purchase was being considered to make up for the lost aircraft but it is sheer wastage of approx 1 bn $ in buying the mothballed MIG 29. The aircraft has not earned itself any honours in the battle fields or even during the Balakot strike, MIG 29 were not used. Moreover these aircraft orders will most likely take 5 years to be in India. Indian navy is also not too happy with their MIG 29k. Rather it would be better to invest in the weapons like meteors or the R77 with better BVR range to equip the present squadrons. Expenditure on better range cum accurate ballistic and cruise missiles to counter China will be money well spent. Though a follow on order for Rafale for two more squadrons with meteor and scalp missiles package could be a deterrent for adversaries. The upgradation of Mirage 2k, Jaguar and Sukhoi 30 NKI could be the money well spent.

[DrPriyankT]

Originally Posted by whitecloud

The MMRCA tender is going nowhere while the IAF squadrons are depleting day by day. As per former ACM Dhanoa, the SU30 purchase was being considered to make up for the lost aircraft but it is sheer wastage of approx 1 bn $ in buying the mothballed MIG 29. The aircraft has not earned itself any honours in the battle fields or even during the Balakot strike, MIG 29 were not used. Moreover these aircraft orders will most likely take 5 years to be in India. Indian navy is also not too happy with their MIG 29k. Rather it would be better to invest in the weapons like meteors or the R77 with better BVR range to equip the present squadrons. Expenditure on better range cum accurate ballistic and cruise missiles to counter China will be money well spent. Though a follow on order for Rafale for two more squadrons with meteor and scalp missiles package could be a deterrent for adversaries. The upgradation of Mirage 2k, Jaguar and Sukhoi 30 NKI could be the money well spent.

Firstly the COVID crisis has put almost all deals on the backburner. For example the LCA MK1A deal will be now signed in August as per media reports, instead of May as planned before. Also why not invest an extra squadron with beefed up Mig 29UPG’s when we already have base infrastructure for the same. We already operate a 100+ Mig 29’s in the IAF and IN fleets. Then do you think MBDA (makers of the Meteor) allow a Russian aircraft to have access to the codes of the Meteor, when they aren’t allowing us the same with the LCA which is equipped with an Israeli radar. Post Balakot, India under emergency procurement measures acquired the extended range R-77 and R-27 missiles from Russia to attain BVR parity with the AMRAAM’s and PL-12/15 operated by our enemies. To be precise we ordered the longer range R77-1 and M variants with a claimed range of 110 and 193 km respectively. We also ordered extra R-27R1/ER1 and R-27T1/ET1 variants, with claimed ranges of 120-130 kms.

Now in the real world, BVR tactics are closely guarded secrets of all airforces, with multiple factors like speed, altitude, radar range, AWACS , IRST and GCI controlling the actual interception range of BVR missiles. Very rarely are they fired at full range, as the firing protocols of many air forces prohibit a shot in anger at long ranges to prevent a blue on blue incident. If not a visual confirmation, at least an electronic confirmation is needed to confirm the aircraft as an enemy aircraft.

Coming back to the Mig 29, it is actually a superlative aircraft for its role. It’s UPG variant is considered to be on par with the other Gen 4+ aircraft out there. It has respectable air to ground capabilities too, after its upgrade. Coming to Balakot, there are multiple reasons why it would have not been used, which include its current incompatibility to carry the Spice and Crystal Maze bombs, and its primary role as an air defence fighter in the IAF scheme of things. It’s a worthy companion to the Sukhoi for air defence. An extra squadron of Fulcrums for defence of the western borders would free a Sukhoi squadron for the eastern borders and IOR. The Indian Navy, yes it isn’t too happy with the plane primarily due to its low service rate when on-board carriers and its lower ability to resist shocks of a carrier landings unlike the Hornet and the Rafale. Other knowledgeable members may add in here.
Go through these articles to get an idea of what the fulcrum is capable off.https://hushkit.net/2019/08/12/flyin...harish-masand/

https://hushkit.net/2019/09/07/the-m...fighter-pilot/

Coming to Scalp missiles, why do you need more of them, when already our Bramhos are now certified for combat use. The Scalps will be carried only on the Rafales. Remember that all airforces will prefer to drop bombs over a target rather than extended range Air to surface missiles as these missiles are way more expensive than bombs. Missiles will only be used when standoff range is needed.

India has already invested about 2.0 Billion dollars in the currently ongoing M2K upgrade taking them to the 2000-5 standards. Coming to the Jaguar, we are already having the Darin-3 upgrade project wherein their avionics are being upgraded to modern standards, however we aren’t upgrading the engines due to cost factors. Also the Sukhoi 30 upgrade project is also gathering steam. All analysts the IAF to exercise its options for 36 more Rafales in the 2022-23 period. We already have invested in fixed cost for the first 36, hence the second lot won’t cost a lot.

IMHO we need many more AWACS which can operate at standoff ranges to guide our fighters and missiles(via cooperative engagement capability), whilst also jamming enemy comms and radars, which negates the need for our fighters to operate their radars, protecting them from being detected by enemy passive radar sensors, hence giving them enhanced survivability.

Sorry to Nitpick its not Su 30NKI its MKI. MKI stands for Modernizirovannyi Kommercheskiy Indiski - "Modernized Commercial Indian.