[blackasta]

Originally Posted by whitecloud

The aircraft has not earned itself any honours in the battle fields or even during the Balakot strike, MIG 29 were not used

Pardon my shallow knowledge in this field, but as per wiki, "The Mikoyan MiG-29 known as Baaz (Hindi for Hawk) is a dedicated air superiority fighter and constitutes a second line of defence after the Sukhoi Su-30MKI. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian...trike_aircraft

Also "Indian MiG-29s were used extensively during the 1999 Kargil War in Kashmir by the Indian Air Force to provide fighter escort for Mirage 2000s attacking targets with laser-guided bombs."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29#India

Balakot was an exclusive ground attack mission, so I guess it was upto the dedicated multi role or ground attack aircraft to take it up. Just like during the Atlantique incident, and the Pak incursion into Indian airspace after Balakot was handled by Mig 21, the dedicated interceptor aircraft.

[fhdowntheline]

All things aside, the recent incidents continue to "kick in the pants" the general lethargy for acquiring high quality weaponry in high priority. Since 1983 (post PAF F16 acquisition), the IAF got themselves a flurry of new equipment, like the Mig-27, Mig-29, Mirage 2000 and Su30MKI. Beginning early 2000s , the rate of airplane acquisition really stalled badly. And it hasnt changed much with change of governments. Somebody must be accountable for this.
India has 500 billion plus USD of Foreign exchange reserves. Even 10% of that could be used to equip all three services with high quality equipment.

[whitecloud]

Hello Dr

1) MKI to NKI is a typo error which is regretted.

2)Please note that meteor and scalp will be for the M2k and Rafales and not for the Russian origin fighter jets & it's a known fact that competitors do not allow the integration.

3) Similarly, very few SU30 Jets out of 42 jets as requested by SFC have been integrated with Brahmos to take out high value targets and the project is many years behind. Hence the scalp required for the M2K and Rafale till such time. Again this may be helpful for only Pakistan and not the actual adversary china.

4)The articles are important and hushkit is a good site but still i usually form an opinion after some other research as well and read all with a pinch of salt.

5) The DARIN upgrade for M2K is not complete for the M2k till date and needs to be fasttracked. The jag needs to be seriously upgraded to make it nimble and increase its service period.

6) Yes AWACS & tanker refuelling facilities are still not what are required for the size of our Airforce & our adversaries.

7) SUKHOI upgrade is still years away with even specifics and then costs still not negotiated/in public domain.

8)Investing lot of money on legacy platforms without firepower could be wasteful and just for optics. Hence meteor and scalps required for M2k & Rafale.

9) The older MIG 29 UPG Will most likely retire in a decade to 15 yrs. So India will be left with 21 MIG 29 which given the riskiest way of doing things will get delivered in next 5 yrs amid cost escalations.

In the end I would like to thank you for your insight and also request you to read the book Dragon on our doorstep by Parvin Sahni and Ghazala wahab Although, pro China yet it's quite insightful.

Thanks

[Reinhard]

Originally Posted by whitecloud

The aircraft has not earned itself any honours in the battle fields or even during the Balakot strike, MIG 29 were not used. Moreover these aircraft orders will most likely take 5 years to be in India. Indian navy is also not too happy with their MIG 29k. Rather it would be better to invest in the weapons like meteors or the R77 with better BVR range to equip the present squadrons.

The Mig29 is primarily an air superiority fighter-interceptor. With Mig21 interceptors going out of service, its the Fulcrum that becomes even more important. Chronologically, the Mig21Bison is the light interceptor while Mig29 works as a medium air superiority fighter. The IAF squadrons have certain modifications and enhancements in place for it to be able to carry out multi-role operations. However - the Mirage2000 and Jaguars are designated strike/interdiction fighters in the force. Su30MKI is the heavy air dominance/multirole fighter. So you won't see a Mirage2000 scrambled as first choice if there comes an enemy air-strike. Roles are well defined.

Mig29s won't be deployed generally for a strike mission but for air defense, CAP and interception duties due to its high agility & capability for high air-to-air weapon load carrying.

Do also note that the IAF Mig29's were in refit undergoing heavy refit to become Mig29UPG standard (nearing Mig35 level in some aspects). So the combat readiness, availability of certified fighters in service & pilot trainings might not have been complete at the time of Balakot strike.
During Balakot operation - the SU30MKIs provided air defense and cover for the strike package because preference was to have heavy fighters staying within Indian airspace playing decoy/attack roles rather than smaller fighters penetrating Pakistani airspace in high numbers.

The Mig29 is a capable weapons platform and the R77 Adder that you mentioned are the primary weapon of this fighter along with the R73 Archer. Current state is such that we need planes to load the weapons on in first place. Acquiring just missiles will hardly make a difference anymore.

Any other plane order placed now is going to take multiple years for even the 1st plane to arrive. Mig29s fully built in mothballs will be the fastest short term arrangement possible. The force already has the plane in service and addition of the type will be cheapest when indirect costs are included.

And acquiring another tranche of SU30MKIs blindly for any role also makes no sense. The SU30MKI is a costly plane, needs 2 valuable pilots (pilot + WSO), much more cost vis-a-vis flight time. Similar is the case with the Rafale (with 1 less pilot.) So while these should surely be acquired in more numbers IMO, the smaller / cheaper fighters like Tejas, Mig29 have a very important role to play in defensive positions. Especially if they are available at cheap pricing than usual options due to special circumstances (like the mothballed Mig29s).

Originally Posted by blackasta

Pardon my shallow knowledge in this field, but as per wiki, "The Mikoyan MiG-29 known as Baaz (Hindi for Hawk) is a dedicated air superiority fighter and constitutes a second line of defence after the Sukhoi Su-30MKI."
Balakot was an exclusive ground attack mission, so I guess it was upto the dedicated multi role or ground attack aircraft to take it up. Just like during the Atlantique incident, and the Pak incursion into Indian airspace after Balakot was handled by Mig 21, the dedicated interceptor aircraft.

[DrPriyankT]

blackasta sir, the Fulcrum was acquired by the IAF in the 1980's along with the Mirage to counter the Pakistani F-16 acquisition. At that time our Mig 23(our most advanced fighter in the 70's). The Fulcrum then was only a dedicated air defence interceptor with only capability to drop dumb bombs. With the upgrade, we can also enable to drop smart munitions.

During the Kargil war, the Mig 29's from the Black Archers squadron based in Adampur. They had BVR ability at that time which made them lock on to PAF F-16 A/B at that time did not have BVR abilities , however they did not engage due to prevailing Rules of Engagement. Once they acquired Block 52 F-16's,they had an edge on us which will soon dissappear with newer R-77's, Astras and Meteors.

I honestly feel IAF deployed M2K's as they were proven ground attack platforms with history of similar attack runs when deployed at Kargil. Also like I mentioned before, compatibility with Israeli munitions would have also played an important role.

Sir, with respect to the Atlantique incident, Mig 21's were deployed at Naliya AFB, the base closest to the flight path of the PN plane, hence they were scrambled and sent in for interception. If it were Jamnagar, where the plane would have been detected, Mig 29's deployed there would have shot it down. The availability of planes on QRA(Quick Reaction Alert) and the base closest to the point of intrusion plays a role in deciding what is sent out. Mig 21's and their successors the LCA's are best for such point defence role. This can be compared to how Mig 21's were sent in on Feb 28, as the Migs were on QRA there at Awantipore AFS to take on the incoming PAF planes. If Su-30's or other jets were there, I am sure they too would have been sent in.

[AlphaKilo]

Originally Posted by Reinhard

...
Any other plane order placed now is going to take multiple years for even the 1st plane to arrive. Mig29s fully built in mothballs will be the fastest short term arrangement possible...

Where does all this leave our Tejas Mk.1A (in future Mk.2) and AMCA? As already discussed enough and quite enough times reiterated by many and myself, short term unplanned buying will lead only to chaos and derail the long-term plans. I just wish our Top officials in MoD/RM have some long term strategy and stick to it.

What do we do with the Baaz after the china conflict settles down? What will the next government do? Start all over again? Beyond a point, I guess even the Chief of Staffs should clearly communicate to the political and MoD Brass that this is absolutely not what they want. A stable plan and churn out of desi products accordingly and if that is not possible just have a plan to buy foreign products at regular intervals just like what Saudi does. Just decide a track and stick to it for heaven's sake!
!RANT OVER!

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by whitecloud

He
5) The DARIN upgrade for M2K is not complete for the M2k till date and needs to be fasttracked. The jag needs to be seriously upgraded to make it nimble and increase its service period .

DARIN III Upgrade is for the Jaguar Fleet...not the Mirages!!! Most of the Jaguar fleet is already upto DARIN II and not all of them will be upgraded to DARIN III standards.

Originally Posted by whitecloud

9) The older MIG 29 Upg Will most likely retire in a decade to 15 yrs .So India will be left with 21 MIG 29 which given the riskiest way of doing things will get delievered in next 5 yrs amid cost escalations.

Thanks

The MiG-29UPGs will be in service 2040. Also, the 'new' MiG-29s deliveries cannot take 5 years as these are already built airframes that need to be brought upto UPG standards.

Secondly the UPGs are a generation ahead of the legacy Fulcrums in terms of capabilities. The legacy Fulcrums were only capable of dumb bombs and rocket pods in its limited ground attack role while the UPGs can carry TV guided bombs, AShMs, ARMs etc.

[whitecloud]

Yes the DARIN upgrade is for jags ..my apologies but yes the M2k are being upgraded at approx 10 k cr with very few being in position .This will enhance the M2K
capabilities to near to Rafale .My simple point is why spend money on brand new merc w123 when there are better & modern vehicles out there at an some more expenditure.The reliance on Heavy fighter like SU30 MKI with expensive running costs and issues on serviceability needs rethink on extra numbers for a bilion $ .As of now they are 50% of IAF squadrons in position .What is required is to spend limited resources prudently and deploy the Russian platforms on western side and European platforms on north and east.with this I plan rest my case /rant.

[Reinhard]

Originally Posted by AlphaKilo

Where does all this leave our Tejas Mk.1A (in future Mk.2) and AMCA? As already discussed enough and quite enough times reiterated by many and myself, short term unplanned buying will lead only to chaos and derail the long-term plans. I just wish our Top officials in MoD/RM have some long term strategy and stick to it.
What do we do with the Baaz after the china conflict settles down? What will the next government do? Start all over again? Beyond a point, I guess even the Chief of Staffs should clearly communicate to the political and MoD Brass that this is absolutely not what they want. A stable plan and churn out of desi products accordingly and if that is not possible just have a plan to buy foreign products at regular intervals just like what Saudi does. Just decide a track and stick to it for heaven's sake!
!RANT OVER!

In the list of necessary acquisitions for short term - I already mentioned Tejas. So that's my opinion too.

And I'm not saying get the Mig29s for the China stand-off. They can't come in time. This stand-off seems to be boiling down within next month or 2. Neither party will want to escalate it further. The Mig29s are needed to fill up the huge shortfall even without China as a neighbour. The squadron strengths are starting to dwindle nearing PAF's numbers now. That's alarming.

And if you don't plan for such short term acquisitions - you are only left with some long term plan. Implementation of which takes at least 7-10 years to bear fruit in the aircraft hangar. By then the active frontline combat inventory will be scarily low in count. So having a long term plan of course is what everyone would want. But short term plans cannot be simply discounted. Especially since for decades there has been no long term plan!

P.S. - In arms acquisitions of the magnitude of fighter planes - short term itself is 10-15 years.

[DrPriyankT]

The Mig 29UPG is an extremely capable fighter, and it can hold its own against the F-16 and J-10 fighters. Also, we have almost 35+ years of experience in handling and maintaining this fighter, and we are well versed with the tactics developed around this aircraft. In fact, during exercise Iron Fist, this UPG has delivered smart ammunition with good accuracy, earning it laurels. The UPG variant has upgraded new build RD-33 Series 3 engines which overcome the low MTBO and smoky nature of the old engines. Of course, they are not as maintenance-friendly as the GE F404 or Snecma M-53/88 engines, but they do their job. They have a dorsal hump which increases fuel capacity, adds newer avionics and adds newer ECM gear. The UPG upgrade also gives it a better cockpit layout and HOTAS feature. Air to Air refuelling is also added in, as an upgrade. This upgrade has also extended its airframe life. Yes, the upgrade is slow and expensive, but we get an amazing air defence bird with respectable ground attack capability.

The M2K upgrade is expensive, but again like the Fulcrum, it is a bang for the buck. The RDY-2 pulse doppler radar for example gives it the ability to fire the MICA missiles. One thing, I would like to add is, not even the French have integrated their M2K's with the meteor, hence the question of us using M2K-Meteor combo doesn't arise. Newer integrated EW suite gives it the ability to fight in contested environments. This upgrade makes it a very accomplished nuclear-capable ground attack aircraft which is also quite capable of giving a tough fight to enemy air defence aircraft.

The Jaguars are being upgraded to the DARIN-3 standards, which gives them all an advanced multimode radar, better navigation equipment, ASRAAM missile integration, a better cockpit and better datalinks. However, unfortunately, the increase in weight due to these avionics is not being commensurately adjusted with an increase in thrust. Sadly due to cost issues, these planes are not getting re-engined with new Honeywell engines. Nevertheless, they still remain potent ground attack aircraft.

These 3 aircraft mentioned above still have more than half of their airframe lives left and they are still capable with their upgrades to fight till 2035, when hopefully (and fingers crossed), they will be replaced by the indigenous AMCA.

The Su-30mki will remain our mainstay heavyweight fighter for reasons like its range and sheer load-carrying ability, not to mention it's dogfighting ability. The wheels of its upgrade are already in motion. The Phazotron Zhuk-AE AESA will be replacing its IBRIS PESA radar. It will also get a better ESM suite, better datalinks, a better cockpit layout and an indigenous jammer pod. The 42 Sukhoi's as speculated to be fitted out with the capability to carry bramhos missiles currently will suffice, as the heavy bramhos which is carried currently will be supplemented by a bramhos-ng variant, which will weigh in at 1.5 tonnes, which will enable even the Tejas to carry it. It will be a nice complementary partner to the scalp missile. The upgraded Sukhois can actually act as bomb trucks due to their load-carrying capacity.

Hopefully, we will see the LCA production pick up, and we will see the deal signed for 83 LCA MK1A's, which are worthy replacements for the venerable Mig-21's. One point I would like to add, it's my gut feeling we will see options being exercised for the extra 36 Rafale's in 2022-23 timeframe.

Experts on the forum may correct me or add on to what I have mentioned.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by DrPriyankT

The Mig 29UPG is an extremely capable fighter....
The M2K upgrade is expensive, ...... This upgrade makes it a very accomplished nuclear-capable ground attack aircraft which is also quite capable of giving a tough fight to enemy air defence aircraft.

The Jaguars are being upgraded to the DARIN-3 standards, which gives them all an advanced multimode radar, better navigation equipment, ASRAAM missile integration, a better cockpit and better datalinks.....
The Su-30mki will remain our mainstay heavyweight fighter for reasons like its range and sheer load-carrying ability, not to mention it's dogfighting ability. The wheels of its upgrade are already in motion.........The 42 Sukhoi's as speculated to be fitted out with the capability to carry bramhos missiles currently will suffice, as the heavy bramhos which is carried currently will be supplemented by a bramhos-ng variant..... It will be a nice complementary partner to the scalp missile. The upgraded Sukhois can actually act as bomb trucks due to their load-carrying capacity.

+1 Very well summarized on all 4 aircraft that form our mainstay today. Actually we have through a long process of trial & error, starting with DARIN-1 and minor improvements we stitched into the MiG-21 in 1970s and 1980s, we have become very competent at pulling together avionic upgrades and integrating them. We are not short on quality only on quantity. That's a very big only :-(

[skanchan95]

Atleast Six IAF Rafales will reach India on July 27. The weapons will be delivered even earlier.

Atleast six Rafales will take off from Istres, France and make a single stopover at the UAE's Al Dhafra air force base near Abu Dhabi. The jets, to be ferried by Indian pilots, will be accompanied by a French Air Force tanker, possible one of the two new A330 MRTT tankers. While the initial plan was to deliver four Rafales,*Livefist*can confirm that the IAF and Dassault Aviation are working to ensure at least six airframes arrive in one go, with the possibility of that number increasing by a couple of airframes.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020...ive-ahead.html

Why not IAF's IL-78MKI as the support aircraft, as has been the norm earlier? Or is this a pitch to sell the A330 MRTT to the IAF?

[AlphaKilo]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

...
Why not IAF's IL-78MKI as the support aircraft, as has been the norm earlier? Or is this a pitch to sell the A330 MRTT to the IAF?

Great news and right timing. I guess the IAF force multipliers are now in "other" duties and cannot be spared for a ferry flight or may be the Rafael's are rated for refueling from A330s only for now and IAF wants to train its pilots with the IL's once it reaches indian soil.

[himanshugoswami]

as on date there are 24 IAF pilots combat certified on Rafales and more are being trained as we speak. we are getting 6 Rafales in July. What are the chances that in case all out two front hostilities break out around aug/Sep, we may see a few Rafales from France or even UAE landing in India?

[ads11]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

Why not IAF's IL-78MKI as the support aircraft, as has been the norm earlier? Or is this a pitch to sell the A330 MRTT to the IAF?

The A330 MRTT already has been in the frame for a new IAF tanker aircraft for yonks now. It's basically been stuck in the usual Indian procurement purgatory of winning a tender, tender being withdrawn, waiting for a new one to be issued, ad infinitum. I wouldn't blame Airbus for trying to ram the point home about their offering being the best option especially when it's fuelling the IAFs shiniest new toy with the undoubted glossy images we'll have from the ferry flight. It beggars belief how this one has been held up so long. It would be ridiculous if India stumped for the useless KC-46 from Boeing, the A330 MRTT has been quietly working away for a number of air forces for a while now. We should just sign on the dotted line and upgrade our tanker fleet. I'd wager it's availability stats are a damn sight higher than the long in the tooth Ilyushin's.

I suppose it's likely simply a matter of convenience for all parties involved. India only needs to send the Rafale certified pilots along instead of the logistics and cost involved in sending at least one of the IL's. France likely gets some decent air time for it's A330 aviators and gets to test it's legs on the ferry flight. Win win for both parties I'd say.

Does raise worrying questions for the IAF if the IL wasn't sent for availability reasons but I'd like to think it's mostly just the convenience factor listed above.