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Old 17th May 2020, 23:02   #1021
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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@DrPriyankT : Only a rogue country like Pakistan will use its AF against its own people in its own territory as it did in its northern Frontier. We can do it too with what we have like Jaguars and helicopter gunships but we are not Pakistan and will never do it.
100% agree. Our men in uniform are an extremely moral force exemplified by the recent martydom of a RR battalion commader and his men where they layed down their life to protect civilians upholding the highest traditions of our forces.

Last edited by DrPriyankT : 17th May 2020 at 23:03.
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Old 17th May 2020, 23:07   #1022
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

^^^^^^
Citizens rebelling are a sign of a deeper political malaise that needs a political solution, a healing touch rather than aerial bombing. Most of those citizens be they Maoists or Kashmiris are aggrieved about something. And the Maoists at least are not proposing a break away. That is why to this day the Army has not been used against the Maoists.
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Old 17th May 2020, 23:26   #1023
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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I was surprised to read IAF strafed a few MNF insurgents way back in 1966.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc...Front_uprising
I believe the men behind the exercise were even commended.
Later on after an outcry, the story became 'it never happened.' Truth - the military historians on this forum can enlighten us.

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@DrPriyankT : Only a rogue country like Pakistan will use its AF against its own people in its own territory as it did in its northern Frontier. We can do it too with what we have like Jaguars and helicopter gunships but we are not Pakistan and will never do it.
See above.
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Old 17th May 2020, 23:55   #1024
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
^^^^^^
Citizens rebelling are a sign of a deeper political malaise that needs a political solution, a healing touch rather than aerial bombing. Most of those citizens be they Maoists or Kashmiris are aggrieved about something. And the Maoists at least are not proposing a break away. That is why to this day the Army has not been used against the Maoists.
A discussion on this will be beyond the realm of this forum sir. With me being the one to start the COIN aircraft topic, let me be the one to humbly end it too.

Last edited by DrPriyankT : 18th May 2020 at 00:00.
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Old 18th May 2020, 01:41   #1025
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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I believe the men behind the exercise were even commended.
Later on after an outcry, the story became 'it never happened.' Truth - the military historians on this forum can enlighten us.


See above.
That was an interesting piece of history, but I always thought that it was only a defamation excercise against the Indian govt more than anything else.
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Old 18th May 2020, 03:39   #1026
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

The Super Tucano is a pretty effective aircraft for simple counter insurgency operations but I'd echo what others have said, it's simply not a great look for the air force to be used in offensive operations on domestic soil.

Instead the Super Tucano is ideally suited to places like Afghanistan or Colombia/Mexico even where you don't need a jet engined platform to take on narcos for example. In fact the USAF has long had an on and off again programme to acquire such a capability for use in environments with a relatively permissive aerial arena where a cheap platform to get munitions on target is the key. Can't see India needing to spend money for that capability. Instead we'd probably be better off getting a few HAL Rudras (it's available now compared to the LCH and the optics aren't as militaristic as the latter) ostensibly to cover any such COIN role perhaps under the CRPF's umbrella. We fulfill a self sufficiency mandate from the govt, back a domestic PSU and have an Indian platform that can rapidly be requisitioned by another service when needed.

I wasn't aware of the statement by the Brazilian minister but maybe there could just be an opportunity to be taken advantage of.. Won't get my hopes up though. For a country with often sweltering heat, the procurement bureaucracy sure moves at a glacial pace

Last edited by ads11 : 18th May 2020 at 03:41.
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Old 18th May 2020, 11:05   #1027
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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I agree they are our own citizens in many cases(Kashmir however has many from across the border too) , but without getting into politics, I mooted this idea, as it personally saddens me to see many of our braves being killed in operations to neutralize terrorists, hence i felt, why risk our men when a small 100 pound guided weapon can eliminate a terrorist. My idea of using COIN aircraft was based on this article I read on Wikipedia where I was surprised to read IAF strafed a few MNF insurgents way back in 1966.
Use of air power over civilian areas against militants is irresponsible and out of the question because the chance of collateral damage is just too high. There is a reason why we couldn't just bomb the Taj hotel during 26/11 with an air strike and save the lives of our esteemed commandos. Even the Americans carefully considered before using air power over civilian areas (PS in a foreign setting) and even then Fallujah was a disaster. By bombing what are mainly civilians, you are creating more militants than eradicating them.

Even the Chinese would never consider bombing Tibet or Xinjiang province in the 21st century.
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Old 18th May 2020, 12:36   #1028
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CRPF already operates armed Mil Mi-7 v5 under the COBRA team and it is primarily used to provide over watch or cover fire or for extracting the commandos from behind enemy controlled forests. It is armed only with unguided rockets and door side guns. This gun ship is primarily for self defence. The idea of helicopter gunship in our own soil isn't new to our forces nor their use is prohibited per se. The rudra sees regular action but only as a tool to insertion or extraction of the special forces. During such operations, sometimes, some bullets or rockets do leave their pods and land in the insurgents' bodies.

What worries me is the tall talks by the politicians are never followed up in action to strengthen or fund the PSUs. We have seen many such promises in the past and only end up with more foreign orders. Only asking PSUs to deliver goods without providing them the platform (manpower, financial power and a solid link to the private manufacturing base) will do more harm than good. Let's wait and see what the present government and the top management of these PSUs do to make use of the situation.

I personally know that there is enough knowledge base within our country to be able develop latest tech. What is lacking is the strategic move by the government. For example, the Kaveri has been a stalemate project for a long time due to the non availability of single crystal single piece blade manufacturing technology and the non availability of required core metals within our soil. Not one government did anything to help gtre acquire this piece of tech nor the raw material! Kaveri was a running Gag at MTU/iabg test center for the Europeans but never once was the lack of knowledge a problem. From my interactions with the people from gtre, I would put them on par with the best minds in the field right now. Some of them are alumnus of MITs and Stanford's and IITs and have some patents worth watching!!

Last edited by AlphaKilo : 18th May 2020 at 12:47.
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Old 18th May 2020, 14:23   #1029
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

What is the status of the Hawk-i project which was initiated by HAL? Can our Hawk's based at AFS Bidar be atleast be wired and kept ready to be weaponized at short notice?? They have a respectable capacity for carriage of 6800 pounds of ordnance, and have seen combat with the Air Forces of Malaysia and Zimbabwe. This can be a low cost close air support aircraft for our air force, as a complement to our attack choppers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britis...space_Hawk_200

Also, I wanted to ask about the status of the HAL HJT-36/39 and the HTT-40 trainer aircraft?

Last edited by DrPriyankT : 18th May 2020 at 14:30.
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Old 18th May 2020, 14:40   #1030
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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And hounded out so well, that he and his creation itself are pretty much forgotten altogether! There is a well maintained Marut on display in a museum in Germany but majority Indian citizens think Tejas is the first Indigenous fighter! India managed to get the services of the designers of one of the best propeller fighters ever made - the FW190, and then made a big hash of it.
Dr. Kurt Tank wasn't hounded out. His contract expired and he left for Germany and joined MBB as a consultant. Even after leaving India, his interest in Indian aviation never completely went away. In the early 70s, when there was project called the HF-73 fighter, Tank himself made proposals to HAL on MBB's behalf to co-operate in an effort to meet the IAF's DPSA requirement(for which the HF-73 was proposed & meant)

Dr. Tank even proposed to re-engine the HF-24 with Rolls Royce/MTU RB199 engines/. But studies showed this would have required substantial changes in the HF-24's airframe design and the project was shelved. Thereafter the HF-24 died a a slow death . The project for the afterburner equipped Orpheus powered HF-24 died when one of our greatest test pilots Gp. Capt Suranjan Das lost his life while taking off in the prototype HF-24Mk.1R.

There was an attempt to design a single engined HF-24(called the HF-25)to be re-equipped with the MiG-21bis's R-25 engine or MIrage F1's M.53 engine. The project enever went beyond the design stage and IAF had clearly showed a preference for the Floggers by then.

The HF-24 was a capable aircraft but for its Achilles heel -its underpowered engines. All three IAF HF-24 sqdns - No. 10, 31 & 220 converted to the MiG-23BN later.

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There is a well maintained Marut on display in a museum in Germany but majority Indian citizens think Tejas is the first Indigenous fighter! I
The Marut on display in the museum Germany was a gift from HAL to the Museum following a request by Dr. Kurt Tank's widow - as it was the legendary designer's last creation.

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I can't see the guy who is widely spoken of as the architect of the Rafale deal, ACM Bhadauria, now in charge of the IAF suddenly backing down on the very item he stepped into the limelight for facilitating. I agree that the deal will be put on ice for now given the entirely real fiscal issues, but the intent is still there.
ACM Bhadauria is a former Tejas test pilot as well. To be frank, I am glad to see the Tejas getting the attention it deserves under his leadership. Let's just hope the Tejas gets the support and spawns into promising variants in the future and does not end up meeting a sad end like the HF-24 Marut.
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Old 18th May 2020, 14:47   #1031
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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...
The Marut on display in the museum Germany was a gift from HAL to the Museum following a request by Dr. Kurt Tank's widow - as it was the legendary designer's last creation.

...
Not anymore with the Museum of Aircrafts and Aerospace, Munich (Unterschleißheim). The airframe was removed and loaned to Museum for Aircrafts and technology, Wernigerode in Saxsony-Annex (Museum für Luftfahrt und Technik, Wernigerode, Sachsen-Anhalt).

https://www.deutsches-museum.de/en/f...ircraft/marut/

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Old 18th May 2020, 14:59   #1032
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

There is an excellent article by Delhi Defense Review which busts the false canards being created about the Tejas as a lightweight fighter.

http://delhidefencereview.com/2020/0...tejas-fighter/
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Old 18th May 2020, 16:52   #1033
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Dr. Kurt Tank wasn't hounded out. His contract expired and he left for Germany and joined MBB as a consultant.
Any truth to the rumour that he wanted more money than we were agreeable to?

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Old 18th May 2020, 17:01   #1034
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The Madras Institute Of Technology (MIT, as it is known locally) was started in the late 40's by one Mr.Rajam Iyer, and he was very particular that it should have a department of aeronautical engineering, as no other institution in India reportedly had it at that point of time. He was instrumental in bringing Dr.Kurt Tank to Chennai, who for a time was the director of the institute and one of his students was Dr.Abdul Kalam.

My father told me Herr.Tank lived in a bungalow opposite our (under construction) house during 1958-59. I didn't get to see him, because I was born in 1960 and he had moved away by then. The said MIT is just a couple of streets away from where I live!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Tank

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Old 18th May 2020, 19:38   #1035
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by DrPriyankT View Post
There is an excellent article by Delhi Defense Review which busts the false canards being created about the Tejas as a lightweight fighter.

http://delhidefencereview.com/2020/0...tejas-fighter/
Excellent article: a couple of points were interesting to me.
1) The fallacy of high payload-where it was mentioned that a 7t payload F16 is essentially a "bomb truck" as opposed to a "Fighting Falcon" and is only effective in relatively benign airspaces like Afghanistan.

2) The trend of declining high Mach number combat aircraft: I remember reading early brochures of fighter planes in a air combat magazine in the early 80s. There were Tomcats with Mach 2.34, F15s with M2.5, Mirage F1 with M2.2 , even bombers like F-111 and B-58 had high Mach 2+ numbers.

Last edited by fhdowntheline : 18th May 2020 at 19:39.
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