|
Search Forums |
Advanced Search |
Go to Page... |
Search this Thread | 1,185,722 views |
3rd July 2020, 17:19 | #1201 |
BHPian Join Date: May 2013 Location: Mumbai
Posts: 175
Thanked: 595 Times
| Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force @Skanchan95, to get around the CAATSA, India may buy NAASMS, more P-8 Poseidons, more MH-60R's, more C-130J's and a few more Apaches. The American Military Industrial complex won't get a customer like India sanctioned under CAATSA. We are a bigger customer than even the Turks. And regarding the Fulcrums, I feel its just a on paper acknowledgement of the deep upgrades that have been happening now. Last edited by DrPriyankT : 3rd July 2020 at 17:20. |
(3) Thanks |
The following 3 BHPians Thank DrPriyankT for this useful post: | dragracer567, Reinhard, skanchan95 |
|
3rd July 2020, 17:52 | #1202 | ||||
BHPian Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: Leeds
Posts: 937
Thanked: 2,259 Times
| Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Cost - dragracer567 is correct, the current blocks of the F-35 are indeed much cheaper than the stratospheric costs we saw in the media with early Block 1 and Block 2 versions. This is because Lockheed has finally achieved the economies of scale through all of it's facilities and with a massive order book, they'll be churning F-35s out by the bucket load, further reducing the cost, especially when compared directly vs expensive small rate production European competitors like the Rafale and the Typhoon (it's very similar to what you see for cars). Another point that gets lost is that there are 3 variants of the F-35 and it's the VTOL capable F-35B that's most expensive (nearly $30m more than the standard A variant)! That F-35A is pretty much in the ballpark of the Rafale's price. Unless the IN were planning to incorporate the F-35 (and considering they want a twin engine fighter and not VTOL) we can safely exclude both the F-35B and F-35C for arguments sake - then it would be the IAF operating a small F-35A fleet as a sort of silver bullet force. In that regard you now have a compelling argument vs the Rafale in terms of just how much more the F-35 can give in terms of sensor fusion. Sensor fusion - ah but this segues into a good point. Aircraft in Indian inventory already operate a bizarre mish mash of Russian, Israeli and French systems all networked to each other using what I can only imagine are workarounds on our side. Over time I'd reckon the IAF has a fairly competent capability in this regard. The spanner in the works is by virtue of the F-35 being the most networked fighter in history, and underpinning the digital battlespace picture for NATO forces, Lockheed and the Americans are understandably Insanely protective of not just the hardware (there are only a few authorised service level locations for hardware fixes) but more so of the software - you literally require Lockheed technicians to come with their secure data linked machines to make firmware updates on the jet (and that's a big part of a jet that's had more issues stemming from it's software than hardware over the years). In fact Israel is the only operator country that's allowed to have access to source level code to make adjustments to their fleet. Let's be honest, India will Never have the sort of Congressional lobbying power to get that sort of concession in stark contrast to policy with other historic NATO partners. So if we got it, we'd have a right pickle working out how to network the F-35 with our combat assets, juggling not only the requirements of COMCASA but how to get around CAATSA sanctions because these F-35s would be expected to talk to Russian origin jets in IAF service. This last issue is a major sticking point I just can't see us getting around, not easily at least. The Turkey precedent - Turkey got booted primarily for the high profile S-400 purchase even though they're a NATO member. Buying Russian missile systems as a NATO partner would be akin to India purchasing the JF-17, it's absolutely bizarre. Now there's a myriad other reasons for Why Erdogan did this. To summarise, he felt aggrieved at the Americans for not extraditing exiled Turkish cleric/leader Fethulla Gulen who Erdogan was convinced was behind the abortive coup against him. Also there was the repeated US pushback to Turkish efforts to engage in offensive operations against Kurdish forces which Turkey view as enemies (they have a complicated history with the Kurds - they don't recognise them). All these combined to have Erdogan royally irked enough to go out of his way to get back at the Americans. His petulance resulted in Turkey rightfully getting booted from the JSF programme even though they're a partner with Turkish firms manufacturing a fair few components. Now India won't exactly have this NATO issue but let's spin this around. The US has repositioned itself from counter insurgency ops in the Middle East back to great power competition since the tail end of the Obama administration (it was reflected in their most recent defence white paper). No surprises in the great power it's competing against being China and to a less direct extent, Russia. India's inside line into the F-35 would only come in the day that the requirements for the US to counter China are So enormously pressing that it would be in their interest to station a US origin platform on China's southern doorstep. This is obviously very hard to forecast.. But we've come this far, so let's just imagine what it Would look like to have IAF roundels on an F-35 - well you guys asked for it. Say India, after concerted diplomatic efforts both in New Delhi and Washington pulls off the coup of being granted sales of the F-35 (not partner access to the programme - bridge too far imo). We end up fielding a squadron's worth. This is where it'll be useful to borrow the example of the F-35s wearing IAF star of David's, I speak of course of the Israeli's. We've seen that they pretty much wasted no time in getting theirs before pressing them into service against the Syrians (the Israeli's have launched strikes with impunity the last few years). India would likely be more circumspect but I'm not speaking purely about the operational issue here, my worry is the regional escalation issue. Shortly after seeing the Israeli's using their F-35s with abandon, there's been voices in the Arab parts of the Middle East, particularly the UAE in wanting to have some of their own. Now this will be halted by the fact that there's an unwritten rule in Washington that Israel must be provided weapons by the US that allow it to maintain a technological and warfighting advantage over their near peers. If India would get the F-35, we'd have a deep penetrating platform that would likely terrify the PAF and royally irk the PLAAF. What we might see then is that as a way to get back at the US and India, China might sanction the sale of the potential J-31 to the PAF (unlikely they'd sell the J-20 to Pakistan) and would likely position J-20's in Tibetan forward air bases in concert with their upcoming stealth strategic bomber. The latter would really ruin India's day because it would give an almighty headache to our defence planners. So you're starting to see that the F-35 would immediately set off a set of consequences that could exacerbate an already tense picture on the subcontinent. So it's really not as cut and dry wrt getting an F-35. I've just laid out and gamed the scenario for you based on my thinking. It's here that I think a softer option in terms of the ensuing ramifications would indeed be an advanced LO UAV. Quote:
| ||||
(10) Thanks |
The following 10 BHPians Thank ads11 for this useful post: | Alfresco, AlphaKilo, dragracer567, DrPriyankT, itwasntme, MegaWhat, R2D2, Reinhard, skanchan95, V.Narayan |
6th July 2020, 12:27 | #1203 | |
Senior - BHPian | Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force Quote:
You made an interesting point about J-31s. What if China sells J-31s to the PAF just to piss India off first? The legendary Indian reactionary purchase instincts will kick to look for an equal or better alternative. With India pulling out of the Su-57 programme, what other options does India really have in terms of stealth aircraft? F-35 only realistically, unless India partners the UK in the Tempest programme, which is still on paper. So the F-35 will be the only viable option left. To counter both the PAF & PLAAF stealth aircraft together on two fronts, one would need atleast 4-5 squadrons worth of F-35s. | |
(7) Thanks |
The following 7 BHPians Thank skanchan95 for this useful post: | ads11, Alfresco, AlphaKilo, Foxbat, R2D2, Reinhard, V.Narayan |
6th July 2020, 16:06 | #1204 | |
Distinguished - BHPian | Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force Quote:
Once & if the enemy stealth planes manage to breach this line of defense into our airspace, dogfights with them can be reasonably possible with conventional 4.5G fighter interceptors as well since at closer distances the plane should be identifiable, engage-able with modern AESA phased array radars onboard frontline fighters. (My guess i.e.) Own stealth fighters would be better for preemptive and/or retaliatory strikes instead. Last edited by Reinhard : 6th July 2020 at 16:15. | |
(1) Thanks |
The following BHPian Thanks Reinhard for this useful post: | skanchan95 |
6th July 2020, 16:22 | #1205 | |
BHPian Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: Leeds
Posts: 937
Thanked: 2,259 Times
| Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force Quote:
Anyway you've cottoned on to what I was alluding to - the fact that all China would need to do to throw a spanner in the works is kit the PAF with the J-31. That being said it's been a while since I've seen any new flight test imagery of the J-31, so I'm curious how far along that programme is. On paper it really it takes a lot of the boons of the F-35 in terms of it's LO surface shaping concepts and instead of requiring a single mighty engine, it opts for a twin engine load out (granted that also has to do with the well published fact that Chinese engines just aren't on par with their Western counterparts yet). But in doing so they aren't prisoner to the limitations of the F-35 in that a solitary airframe had to fulfil the VTOL mission as well, which I think most will admit now has handicapped the USAF and USN at the cost of giving the USMC the jump jet they lusted after. So essentially if the Chinese really nail it they could have a much cheaper and uncompromised cousin to the F-35A (and I say cousin because it's no secret that Chinese state sanctioned industrial espionage of the JSF programme data led to the striking similarity between the J-31 and F-35). Coming back to your point, if India were to go for a reactionary purchase, which in itself is an atrocious way to go about things considering it compounds the already bad problem we have of a patchwork assortment of platforms, there really wouldn't be any flight worthy alternatives. Like it or not, beyond the F-35 the only hope for India to buy an off the shelf 5th gen platform would be to go back to the Russians for what is still a deeply stunted programme. And like you said the Tempest programme hasn't even got off the planning stage yet so it's well over a decade before it reaches flight testing of a prototype, let alone squadron level service options. However choosing to partner with the UK on such a huge strategic programme would signal a change to a long term outlook and perhaps it could be welcome synergy. There's no denying that the existing aerospace engineering base in the UK, though far removed from the halcyon days post WW2, is still at the top table. What they desperately lack is funding, which India could bring (not saying we're rolling in money but I'd wager we'd have more of a ROI than the Su-57). It's clear that the UK would openly welcome such investment in a dreary post Brexit industrial environment for them and I imagine historic ties are such that there should be less likelihood of major hiccups in working together. But the problem with the Tempest programme is that the currency it's most in need of is time and that's the question for India, does it have that time? My line of thought is this: for now, by not ostensibly escalating the regional picture by acquiring something like the F-35 it should hopefully preclude the PAF suddenly lighting a fire under its butt to get itself the J-31. However the ball remains in China's court in that it could just as easily offer the J-31 to the PAF to escalate from their side. What I wager is prudent for India to do is to absolutely have a well defined picture of what the IAF fleet structure and associated missile defence network should look like to counter the inevitable use of LO assets against Indian interests/positions (a question of when, not if). To that end we're seeing the noises HAL is at least making with the AMCA. However it needs to be much more than just noises. It's time India started to deliver. And it should certainly have some back up in place that is feasible keeping in mind geopolitical and economic realities. | |
(4) Thanks |
The following 4 BHPians Thank ads11 for this useful post: | Alfresco, DrPriyankT, R2D2, skanchan95 |
6th July 2020, 16:46 | #1206 | |
BHPian Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: Leeds
Posts: 937
Thanked: 2,259 Times
| Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force Quote:
But as it's patently clear at this stage a lot of this devolves into conjecture. We'll just have to see how things evolve in our neighbourhood to see which direction all the players end up taking. | |
(2) Thanks |
The following 2 BHPians Thank ads11 for this useful post: | Reinhard, skanchan95 |
6th July 2020, 16:53 | #1207 |
Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: HR51/HR29/HR26
Posts: 2,761
Thanked: 21,261 Times
| Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force Noob questions What’s an LO platform? What’s an A2/AD bubble? |
(1) Thanks |
The following BHPian Thanks Shreyans_Jain for this useful post: | philipmathen |
6th July 2020, 19:28 | #1208 | ||
BHPian Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: Leeds
Posts: 937
Thanked: 2,259 Times
| Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force Quote:
LO is for Low Observable. Colloquially it's often taken to be synonymous with stealth/invisibility but in most instances it's referring to the electromagnetic signature of the platform. How well you're able to deflect and dissipate the radar returns to minimise how you appear on the radar receivers display. LO as a concept is much more broad spectrum in that it also includes things such as the electronic emissions signature of an aircraft. So when I mention LO platform I'm basically referring to something that has features designed to reduce it's electromagnetic signature and this can include something like a cruise missile, an aircraft (fighter/bomber/UAV), a vehicle or a ship. A2/AD stands for Anti Access Area Denial. Quote:
Hope that helps. Last edited by ads11 : 6th July 2020 at 19:30. | ||
(7) Thanks |
The following 7 BHPians Thank ads11 for this useful post: | Alfresco, DrPriyankT, PGA, philipmathen, Shreyans_Jain, skanchan95, V.Narayan |
7th July 2020, 13:02 | #1209 | |
Senior - BHPian | Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force Quote:
The principal reason for using weapons in internal weapons bay is to make the aircraft stealthy/ difficult to detect on radar. Modern combat aircraft are designed to have minimal radar cross-sections, which makes it difficult to detect by airborne and surface radars. Large racks of missiles and bombs hanging below the wings return very distinct radar signatures which was eliminated by designing internal weapon bays to carry weapons inside the fuselage. This also improved aerodynamic performance and also increases the payload which can be carried and the range of the aircraft. In the F-35's internal weapons bay, it can carry 4 X AIM-120s ( 2 in each bay) or 1 X AIM-120 & 1 X GPS/Laser guided bomb (in each weapons bay, which means 2X AIM-120 & 2 X guided bombs in the jets internal weapon bays). In Stealth mode, weapons carried only in the internal bays. none of the wings( 2 X AIM-120 AMRAAMs & 2 X GBU-31 JDAMs<GPS Guided>) In flight. To fire/drop the weapon, the internal bay door opens once the trigger is pressed by the pilot and it is at that moment the aircraft momentarily loses its stealth capabilities. Weapons carried on wings + in the internal bay[ 2 X AIM-120 AMRAAMs, 2 X GBU-31 JDAMs<GPS Guided> in the internal bay, 2 X AIM-9X Sidewinders & 8 X GBU-38 JDAMs < on twin ejector racks, GPS Guided> on the Wings] Last edited by skanchan95 : 7th July 2020 at 13:04. | |
(8) Thanks |
The following 8 BHPians Thank skanchan95 for this useful post: | ads11, Alfresco, AlphaKilo, arijitkanrar, Foxbat, MegaWhat, sai_ace, V.Narayan |
7th July 2020, 16:31 | #1210 | |
BHPian Join Date: Mar 2018 Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 184
Thanked: 561 Times
| Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force Quote:
| |
(1) Thanks |
The following BHPian Thanks arijitkanrar for this useful post: | Sutripta |
8th July 2020, 01:55 | #1211 | |
Distinguished - BHPian | Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force Quote:
Amazon.com : F35C scale model (Currently hardly anything is order-able of course due to COVID19 restrictions and transport disruptions all over the world.) Historic warbirds, tanks, RC kits - you can also find on AliExpress.com in addition to Amazon.com (again - Covid19, postal disruption + China's undue arrogance up north mean this avenue is pretty much congested right now too.) I have a Fw190 RC warbird in my wishlist in both sites since a while now! Some day I'll take the plunge surely. | |
(2) Thanks |
The following 2 BHPians Thank Reinhard for this useful post: | arijitkanrar, skanchan95 |
|
8th July 2020, 10:54 | #1212 | |
Senior - BHPian | Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force Quote:
It doesn't have operable weapon bay doors and landing gear. It comes with various attachments using which you can either display the model in any one the following "attachments" configurations: A) Open weapons bay doors/ landing gear deployed OR B) Open weapons bay doors/ landing gear up OR C) Weapons bay closed and Landing gear up. OR D) Weapons bay closed and Landing gear down It also has two types of cockpit canopy attachments- one "closed" and other "open". The attachments are removable but in some models are 'weak' and needs careful handling. The model box with various weapons, pilot, canopy, landing gear and door attachments for the display configurations I listed above HobbyMaster is probably the most well known, detailed and quality conscious brands in the world, beaten probably only by Calibre Wings. Almost all of these well known aircraft model brands are based or have factories in China. If one is into the Boycott Chinese thing, you'll be in a dharam sankat while deciding to buy those models. I buy most of these models, including the HM F-35A, from DBJets.com. A few I have bought from Aliexpress. A little birdie told me that Customs have begun clearing Chinese origin consignments stuck In Indian sea and air ports after clearance from "THE" higher authorities. And there is this wonderful thread started by Narayan Sir on Aircraft Scale Models, which thanks to all the contributors, has become a wonderful thread to browse through if you a scale model lover- Scale Models - Aircraft, Battle Tanks & Ships Last edited by skanchan95 : 8th July 2020 at 11:05. | |
(5) Thanks |
The following 5 BHPians Thank skanchan95 for this useful post: | Alfresco, arijitkanrar, Reinhard, Sutripta, V.Narayan |
8th July 2020, 11:18 | #1213 |
BHPian Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Bangalore
Posts: 371
Thanked: 3,086 Times
| Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force OK, another noob question to the experts here: Isn't F-35 maintenance hours more than say, F-18? Wouldn't it be prudent to have multiple F-18 Hornets (if India ever gets a chance to buy F-35 or F-18 that is), which can do more sorties in a day (I read 9 more in a day than an F-35)? Also since our primary target would be either Pak or China, we'll need more speed than stealth or am I missing big chunks in my primitive knowledge? |
() Thanks |
8th July 2020, 14:08 | #1214 | |
Distinguished - BHPian | Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force Quote:
While higher number of cheaper planes certainly has a case for itself, note that the auxiliary expense of maintenance, upgrades and operational costs also increase with each extra unit procured. So there needs to be a balance in an advanced platform that is complemented by capable support crafts. Pure numerical superiority can never assure victory in calculations on paper. That math generally results in a higher attrition also. If an adversary acquires a more advanced weapon system, the dice are pretty much rolled for you and one doesn't have too many options but to counter that to maintain the balance. Either you get equal or better planes OR an alternate defense mechanism that does the job. In theory you can send 12 F18s to counter 5 F35s and save money let's assume. But that works only if the F18s along with any available AWACs can actually spot and engage the stealth plane from a safe distance. If the stealth has already reached its attacking range from intended target - you are already late. Speed and likely superior training regime we have may get the job done when it comes to Pakistan given the size of the country E2E. This does not work with China in case of an all out conflict. For the key targets that are spread across thousands of KMs in Tibet and beyond - the planes need a lot of travel to target and stealth surely is a vital item for deep interdiction/strike missions. Without stealth, IAF would be primarily looking at interception, defense, infantry support & tactical strikes in near-range battlefield level. Nothing strategic whatsoever. So - perhaps the doctrine itself may focus on using cruise and ICB missiles to target deep strategic targets while the air-force assumes the role primarily of local air cover. In this strategy, a higher number of cheaper planes, makes a case. Last edited by Reinhard : 8th July 2020 at 14:11. | |
(4) Thanks |
The following 4 BHPians Thank Reinhard for this useful post: | IshaanIan, skanchan95, V.Narayan, ValarMorghulis |
10th July 2020, 08:38 | #1215 |
Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Chennai
Posts: 1,824
Thanked: 8,478 Times
| Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force A scrapped and auctioned Mig 21 is busy attracting footfalls for a Dhaba in the NCR region now: From sentinel of skies to dhaba decoration, a MIG-21 finds new home - https://indianexpress.com/article/in...-6496683/lite/ |
(3) Thanks |
The following 3 BHPians Thank locusjag for this useful post: | Reinhard, skanchan95, V.Narayan |