[aim120]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

Weren't we talking about A57?

Oh, so you *are* talking of something else, not about being accurately able to see DOF in the EVF as you wrote? Hmmm... which means you haven't actually seen it yourself? That's OK.

I own a A57 SLT and its brighter in low light then competing OVF cameras.It doesn't matter whether its a A57 or A77 , EVF is brighter due to the fact that the APS-C sensor is boosting the light .The A77 oled EVF offcourse has a high contrast ratio with pitch dark blacks.
I am talking about everything including DOF and the other points that i have made in those two posts.

Originally Posted by R2D2

I have used an EVF Sony camera and found it pathetic.

Don't go by the hype on EVFs especially not from Sony.

You can note flickering in the EVF, noise, colour discrepancies and lag. Use both EVFs and OVFs especially in low light and you will note the difference. My bro may be buying a Sony A99, the top end Sony SLT, instead of a Canon 5D Mk3. He's still in the decision making stage. If he goes in for the A99 I will compare that camera's EVF with my Nikon cameras (D4 & D800). That should be a pretty fair comparison.

EVFs are pretty good with all the WYSIWYG features but they have a long way to go before catching with the 'immediacy' and accuracy of an optical VF. But there's no doubt that mirrorless is the future. The reflex mirror is a legacy that will be discarded.

Have you actually seen an EVF in SLT A57/37 or panasonic GH series,if not please go have a look at it.Do not assume that these EVFs are the same as the ones found in ultra zoom cameras like the (Sony H or HX or the Fuji HS or canon SX series).

The EVF in the SLT do not flicker.The noise displayed by them is the image sensor noise at high ISO,this can only be seen at low light when the sensor boosts the image ,atleast in the EVF you can actually see what you are framing as shown in the video.

While the OVF found in full frame cameras are certainly good being bright and 100% coverage.The same cannot be said for the OVF found in low end cameras like EOS rebel series and D3xxx,D5xxx which have a tiny OVF and is also mirror based .I compared all cameras in the price range including D3200,D5100,600D,650D and mirrorless cameras but i choose the A57 because it ticked all the right boxes and when i am spending around 40k for the camera you can bet that i knew what i was buying.

[R2D2]

Originally Posted by aim120

Have you actually see an EVF in SLT A57/37 or panasonic GH series,if not please go have a look at it.Do not assume that these EVFs are the same as the ones found in ultra zoom cameras like the (Sony H or HX or the Fuji HS or canon SX series)..

Oh yes I have checked out the EVF on the A57...no patch on the OVFs I am afraid.

Originally Posted by aim120

The EVF in the SLT do not flicker.

Really??! Check the D7K v/s A77 video you posted from 0:26 onwards and it's there for all to see!

Originally Posted by aim120

The noise displayed by them is the image sensor noise at high ISO,this can only be seen at low light when the sensor boosts the image ,atleast in the EVF you can actually see what you are framing as shown in the video..

And you think hyper boosted pic in a micro monitor is a redeeming feature?

Originally Posted by aim120

While the OVF found in full frame cameras are certainly good being bright and 100% coverage.The same cannot be said for the OVF found in low end cameras like EOS rebel series and D3xxx,D5xxx which have a tiny OVF and is also mirror based .I compared all cameras in the price range including D3200,D5100,600D,650D and mirrorless cameras but i choose the A57 because it ticked all the right boxes and when i am spending around 40k for the camera you can bet that i knew what i was buying.

It's not about how much you spend but what you get out of it. In the end OVF or EVF depends on an individual user and you are entitled to your opinion. You made the right decision though. I would prefer a mirrorless/SLT to a crop sensor today. The crop range is under pressure from both ends - cheaper full frames and very capable mirror-less range from Olympus, Panasonic, Sony et al. The semi-pro & pro range of Nikon/Canon will remain OVF for the foreseeable future. All that said ever wonder why OVFs are far more popular even if they are more expensive to make and assemble compared with EVFs?

That's why I am waiting for my bro to get his A99 (with 3 high end Sony/Zeiss lenses) ..let me have a Sony high end v/s Nikon high end VF comparison.


EDIT: Let me quote from DPReview review of the A57: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-alpha-slt-a57/4

The existing, field sequential 1.44M dot EVFs used in the first generation SLTs stand up reasonably well against the small optical finders found in the entry-level DSLR class, but were never likely to win over photographers used to the relatively large pentaprism viewfinder in the A700 and its competitors.

DPReview A99: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-alpha-slt-a99/3

The OLED display uses a progressive update and as a result, is free from the rainbow-like 'tearing' effect common to displays in lower-end Sonys......There will clearly be some photographers for whom an EVF is a deal-breaker

As said before, the EVF is far from perfect. It needs to evolve before it can replace an optical VF especially in the high end pro cameras.

[DerAlte]

I don't like EVF because ... I have hypermetropia. With an OVF I am looking at the far image, not uncomfortably trying to 'figure out' far image from a near image.

As @aim120 tried to put it, "... unless one is sure about what exactly those settings do at that moment of taking the picture". Well, anyone who has used film with SLR knows about that beforehand (there was no 'preview' with film ), and doesn't really waste time looking at the individual settings (or modifications) at the time of taking a shot (having known what they set). That time is only used for composing.

Most of the great camera artists (there are quite a few on TBHP) usually wait for the conditions to turn just right (for what they have set) before clicking. Taking pictures is all about capturing a moment or a place, not about playing around with tech features to get a theoretically perfect picture.

[R2D2]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

I don't like EVF because ... I have hypermetropia. With an OVF I am looking at the far image, not uncomfortably trying to 'figure out' far image from a near image.

As @aim120 tried to put it, "... unless one is sure about what exactly those settings do at that moment of taking the picture". Well, anyone who has used film with SLR knows about that beforehand (there was no 'preview' with film ), and doesn't really waste time looking at the individual settings (or modifications) at the time of taking a shot (having known what they set). That time is only used for composing.

Most of the great camera artists (there are quite a few on TBHP) usually wait for the conditions to turn just right (for what they have set) before clicking. Taking pictures is all about capturing a moment or a place, not about playing around with tech features to get a theoretically perfect picture.

+1

I too come from the film era and recently went fully digital though I have had a digital PNS for >10 years. I like to make each shot count like I did with a 36 exposure roll of film instead of the 'spray and pray' world of digital photography.

Steve McCurry (of the Afghan Girl fame, and one of my favourite photogs) has shot the last roll of Kodak Kodachrome slide film. This is one of the best documentaries I have seen in a long time.

http://www.petapixel.com/2013/01/13/...dachrome-film/

[aim120]

Originally Posted by R2D2

Oh yes I have checked out the EVF on the A57...no patch on the OVFs I am afraid.

I have to disagree on that A57 being no match for a OVF since i have seen the competitions OVF which include all the cameras less then 55k.

Originally Posted by R2D2

Really??! Check the D7K v/s A77 video you posted from 0:26 onwards and it's there for all to see!

If one has taken a video of a plasma or OLED or crt display (all self emitting displays) you will know that while the camera sensor records the flicker ,your eyes cannot see them.

Originally Posted by R2D2

And you think hyper boosted pic in a micro monitor is a redeeming feature?

Its one of the pros for EVF and is significant one.

Originally Posted by R2D2

The semi-pro & pro range of Nikon/Canon will remain OVF for the foreseeable future. All that said ever wonder why OVFs are far more popular even if they are more expensive to make and assemble compared with EVFs?

The Nikon and Canon already have a existing large user base who might never jump ship to other brands,they have more then enough customers to milk them and existing customers who have a large lens collection are forced to buy what ever is the latest product from their company.
Now if Sony launched yet another boring OVF camera i am pretty sure i myself and many DSLR buyers would have little reason to buy a Sony ,hell i would have bought a Nikon.The reason why i went with Sony is only because of the multiple award winning SLT which has a EVF.

Just look at the EOS M and Nikon Jx,Vx both are half hearted attempts to enter the mirrorless market,so as long as they enough customers they won't launch a EVF or mirrorless EF/EFS/DX/FX mount cameras.
IMO the future is mirrorless with minimum mechanical parts.Once On sensor PDAF or if CDAF is mature even the SLT will loose its mirror in the future becoming mirrorless yet retaining the same mount.

Originally Posted by R2D2

EDIT: Let me quote from DPReview review of the A57: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-alpha-slt-a57/4

The existing, field sequential 1.44M dot EVFs used in the first generation SLTs stand up reasonably well against the small optical finders found in the entry-level DSLR class, but were never likely to win over photographers used to the relatively large pentaprism viewfinder in the A700 and its competitors. [/b]

They concur with what i said,they are saying the PENTAPRISM OVFs users are unlikely to be won over,cheap DSLR like EOS 650D,D5200 have a tiny dim "PENTAMIRROR". But if you look at DPreview forums there are thousands of people who switched over from A700 to A77 and A900/A850 to A99.
This again shows us that people are not afraid of going to EVF and also supports what i said in the above point ,where people who have invested significantly into a camera system are unlikely to jump ship.

Originally Posted by R2D2

DPReview A99: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-alpha-slt-a99/3

The OLED display uses a progressive update and as a result, is free from the rainbow-like 'tearing' effect common to displays in lower-end Sonys......There will clearly be some photographers for whom an EVF is a deal-breaker

As said before, the EVF is far from perfect. It needs to evolve before it can replace an optical VF especially in the high end pro cameras.

EVF isn't perfect but for the millions of people who bought a SLT,pansonic GH series,OM-D etc are more then happy and accept the pros and cons of EVF.

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by aim120

... there are thousands of people who switched over from A700 to A77 and A900/A850 to A99. ...

Sir, should we keep talking about mirrorless & EVF, and change the DOF of this thread? IMHO, EVF (only) is only of academic interest at this point of time with DSLRs, and there are other threads discussing EVF (only).

You are forgetting all DSLRs today have EVF apart from OVF - just needs half a press of the shutter button to get WYSIWYG (I use it to check for peaking or 'highlights'). If you are talking about obviating that half-press, or find OVFs abhorrent, or are a fan of Sony DSLRs, that is a different matter. Right now it is becoming like fitting a square peg in a round hole.

[R2D2]

Originally Posted by aim120

If one has taken a video of a plasma or OLED or crt display (all self emitting displays) you will know that while the camera sensor records the flicker ,your eyes cannot see them..

Agreed, that flicker could be because of the recording equipment. I haven't seen it in the A57 I tried. But then it wasn't being used in low light.

Originally Posted by aim120

The Nikon and Canon already have a existing large user base who might never jump ship to other brands,they have more then enough customers to milk them and existing customers who have a large lens collection are forced to buy what ever is the latest product from their company.

That's a business model that they have operated with for decades. In fact all companies like to 'trap' their customers into a system that makes it difficult to migrate to another competing one. It's not just camera companies that do this. Auto manufacturers also practice these anti competitive moves.

Sony is famous for proprietary formats and hardware. Betamax, DAT, ATRAC format, mini disk, memory stick etc. Nearly all bombed in the market.

Originally Posted by aim120

Now if Sony launched yet another boring OVF camera i am pretty sure i myself and many DSLR buyers would have little reason to buy a Sony ,hell i would have bought a Nikon.The reason why i went with Sony is only because of the multiple award winning SLT which has a EVF..

As I said before you made the right for yourself given the set of circumstances that you are in. My brother is doing exactly the same - evaluating the Canon and Sony SLT range. He doesn't want Nikon as it is now pretty widespread in my extended family

Originally Posted by aim120

Just look at the EOS M and Nikon Jx,Vx both are half hearted attempts to enter the mirrorless market,so as long as they enough customers they won't launch a EVF or mirrorless EF/EFS/DX/FX mount cameras.

I am not sure about the EOS M but the Nikon ML range has been a disaster. Even being a long time Nikon user wont tempt me to buy that J1/V1/V2 camera. Shame on Nikon actually.

Originally Posted by aim120

IMO the future is mirrorless with minimum mechanical parts.

Absolutely! That's what I have been saying not just in my recent posts but posts that were created on TBHP years ago. The reflex mirror is a legacy that needs to go away - but not just yet.

Originally Posted by aim120

Once On sensor PDAF or if CDAF is mature even the SLT will loose its mirror in the future becoming mirrorless yet retaining the same mount.

Yes, mirrorless and EVFs are the future. Nikon will retain the F mount and create a new mirrorless or SLT camera someday. Nikon's biggest USP has been its compatibility with most F mount legacy lenses which it will retain in all likelihood. It makes sense commercially too as there's no need to invest in development of a new lens mount (other than the Nikon 1 system that requires an adapter for F mount) and customers are happy to use existing lenses. This is unlike Canon which shafted its customers when it changed to the EOS mount back in early 1987.

Originally Posted by aim120

EVF isn't perfect but for the millions of people who bought a SLT,pansonic GH series,OM-D etc are more then happy and accept the pros and cons of EVF.

For a person who starts out afresh there's a better & wider choice, EVF/OVF, crop or full frame. Mind you though that whatever system you choose and buy into, it eventually traps you. That includes Sony/Minolta.

As said before you made the right decision by going SLT instead of a DX/crop DSLR. In my view the future of DX is uncertain as Nikon hasn't released a new high end DX camera body the so called D400 yet. All the lenses in the DX format are consumer grade, that's not to say that they don't perform well.

But for someone used to a large OVF the EVF leaves much to be desired.

[2500cc]

Folks,

Am a photography novice and recently acquired 550D with 18-55 lens. Am looking for another lens and my requirements are:

Wide Angle and decent zoom. Please suggest.

Thank You.

[aim120]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

Sir, should we keep talking about mirrorless & EVF, and change the DOF of this thread? IMHO, EVF (only) is only of academic interest at this point of time with DSLRs, and there are other threads discussing EVF (only).

You are forgetting all DSLRs today have EVF apart from OVF - just needs half a press of the shutter button to get WYSIWYG (I use it to check for peaking or 'highlights'). If you are talking about obviating that half-press, or find OVFs abhorrent, or are a fan of Sony DSLRs, that is a different matter. Right now it is becoming like fitting a square peg in a round hole.

The reason why i brought EVF is when you take Sony SLT into account it has EVF and one of main advantages of SLT is the EVF, apart from PDAF in LV and video.Now the OP had a dilemma whether to choose between a D5200 or a A57 SLT.So i listed the Pros of the SLT which includes the pros of EVF and then people jumped in for the debate.

I agree there is a LCD on the back of virtually every DSLR but what about in outdoor sunlight where lcd is useless(i know OVF is there for taking a photo) but what about for WYSIWYG and for taking videos(which you may or may not).
Add to that the resolution of the EVF like in the A57"/A77 .5" OLED EVF is more then that a IPhone retina display which has a screen size of 4",so the pixel density of the EVFs are much higher then a S3 or iphone displays let alone the lcd on the rear of the DSLR.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by aim120

I have to disagree on that A57 being no match for a OVF since i have seen the competitions OVF which include all the cameras less then 55k..

I have a camera with electronic live view, as well one with OVF. When there is light, both are equally good. but the moment it gets dark, EVF/Live view gets more and more difficult to use.
For non cityscape night landscapes(countryside lit by a half moon), Electronic live view/EVF is totally useless. I have to take a long exposure and then recompose the shot. So usually I take a 5 second ISO 6400 type of shot to perfect my composition, and then I shoot. However, once my eyes have adjusted to darkness, I can simply go ahead and use the OVF for composition. Works much better.

I have also briefly held an Sony A mount camera(forgot the exact model number) with EVF. In darkness its pretty annoying.
That said for 90% of the users EVF or a bright OVF, no difference.

[smokie]

Originally Posted by 2500cc

Folks,

Am a photography novice and recently acquired 550D with 18-55 lens. Am looking for another lens and my requirements are:

Wide Angle and decent zoom. Please suggest.

Thank You.

Wider than 18? Why? Too little information to go with.

Canon EF-S 10-22mm is the widest for the EF-S mount I believe. Canon 17-40mm and Canon EF 16-35mm are other options, both are L glass.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by smokie

Wider than 18? Why? Too little information to go with.

Canon EF-S 10-22mm is the widest for the EF-S mount I believe. Canon 17-40mm and Canon EF 16-35mm are other options, both are L glass.

Sigma 8-16 is the widest rectilinear lens you can fit on your Canon camera.
Of course there are 8mm fisheye lenses too available for not too high a cost, but fisheye is not for everybody

[Samurai]

I don't try to get this technical with camera. But how different is SLT EVF from OM-D EVF? I have done some night photography with OM-D. Don't recall getting annoyed though. In fact, I barely registered the fact that I was shooting in dark. I even did auto-focus on that big star.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by Samurai

I don't try to get this technical with camera. But how different is SLT EVF from OM-D EVF? I have done some night photography with OM-D. Don't recall getting annoyed though. In fact, I barely registered the fact that I was shooting in dark. I even did auto-focus on that big star.

Attachment 1039696

That is quite impressive. On my Nex-5N, when shooting in the dark there is noise on the LCD screen so I can barely see the stars, and forget about AF altogether!

[smokie]

Oh yeah, forgot the Sigma! Also, has anyone tried the correction plugins in lightroom with fisheyes?