[manojkgopalan]

still cannot understand why some people say they don't get the fun in automatic cars, one can concentrate more on driving instead of focusing more on cluch/gear changes. These days autoboxes are not lethargic they were before. As mentioned by many, cars like f1 racers comes only in automatic. I'll prefer automatic any day over manual. its just a change of mind set and the availability of good choices.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by sun_king

By bringing in laundry and convenience you are just ignoring the point I wanted to convey. It is NOT about absolute numbers, it is about artistry. (And by the way 400+ on 21st December 2014 22:00 hrs is NOT minuscule. It is majority!)

Perhaps the gas pedal is all the interface you need with the engine. Fine, you find that fun. We, the MT enthusiasts need the clutch and control of the gear in which we want the engine to run. Try telling a rock climber that it is more convenient to be dropped at the summit by a helicopter.

Many of us have clearly mentioned that we are aware of the convenience of the AT and we willingly opt for the MT because of the control it offers over the engine and transmission. This is not about sophistication of the transmission or efforts required, it is about what we want from a vehicle. The keyword is "control" and in our own painful way that control translates to fun.

Doesn't "control" depends on a lot of other factors as well? For example- a Polo GT TSi will be way more fun and in control compared to a Micra MT- over any sort of terrain. Not only the type of transmission, but the car also matters.

And if the same GT TSi comes with paddle shifts, and the driver has the option to choose which ratio he wants to be in, where is the loss of control here? A flappy paddle let's you be in the ratio you want to be in, faster than a normal guy can shift gears.

Let me confess- I have also stated similar arguments long back in the same thread, and other similar threads. But as more and more modern automatics enter the market- I find that my arguments were based more out of my ignorance rather than anything else. I would now approach the same with an open mind- and just choose the best combination I like rather than being prejudiced about AT or MT.

For example- If I were to upgrade from my Punto now- the most likely contender would be the Skoda Rapid 1.5 DSG if it's a diesel. Or the FIAT Linea TJet if it's a petrol. Both offers the best fun in the segment IMO, regardless of being an AT/ MT. Getting a City/ Linea 1.3 diesel over the Rapid just because of more control from the manual transmission would be a step in the other direction here.

[drmohitg]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Doesn't "control" depends on a lot of other factors as well? For example- a Polo GT TSi will be way more fun and in control compared to a Micra MT- over any sort of terrain. Not only the type of transmission, but the car also matters.

What you say is true. But then there are only a handful of VAG cars and then the luxury Germans that come with these fantastic AT boxes. The rest are all regular boxes and not performance oriented. The Polo GT TSI is the costliest hatch in its segment. So even that factor has to be taken into account. So even though I might have wanted to buy it if I was out in the market for a hatch but the cost factor alone may not allow me to do so.

[ampere]

Today, we do not have an even platform for comparison of choice. Today people will go based on what solves their problem within the budget. And in that budget one may just may just not have an AT available as an option. If Maruti floods the market with AMT somehow solving the logistics problem, then I think many will come in. When there is an AT for every need, then I think poll makes more sense in terms of answering the primary question of this thread.

[itsashishsharma]

Whoever says that ATs take the control away, I would suggest to opt for an AT with a manual option. For eg, drive a regular QJ Zest and then drive the XMA, the AMT variant. For city traffic, you will find the AMT very useful. It doesn't make the car slow, it just takes your job of changing gears and does it efficiently.
For those moments, the sports mode is a helpful gimmick, and shifts happen later in revv range.
If you really need control, the manual mode is for you. In manual mode, it is pretty similar to the manual variant cars, you shift when you feel like. Moreover, it will downshift on its own just and just to avoid the car from stalling, it will upshift just to avoid entering the redline zone. This, in my opinion is best of both the worlds. I couldn't ask for more from a transmission type. It costs some 65-70 k more than the manul XM, it affects the fuel efficiency in sense of improving it over the manual variant car.

[hillsnrains]

Originally Posted by manojkgopalan

still cannot understand why some people say they don't get the fun in automatic cars. As mentioned by many, cars like F1 racers comes only in automatic. I'll prefer automatic any day over manual. its just a change of mind set and the availability of good choices.

I agree there are fun to drive automatics currently like VW DSG but cost factor puts off many prospective buyers. Especially on highways MT is boon to drive, unless you have DSG with paddle shifters. My point is conventional automatics are not that fun to drive. They are perfect for city drive but for highways MT is the best bet for me all the way.

one can concentrate more on driving instead of focusing more on cluch/gear changes

Once you are used to MT, I don't think one has to focus on shifting gears, IMO gear changes will happen just like that (i mean unconsciously or with least effort from brain). I agree we have to put lot of physical effort especially during city drives.

Originally Posted by drmohitg

But then there are only a handful of VAG cars and then the luxury Germans that come with these fantastic AT boxes. The rest are all regular boxes and not performance oriented. The Polo GT TSI is the costliest hatch in its segment. So even that factor has to be taken into account. So even though I might have wanted to buy it if I was out in the market for a hatch but the cost factor alone may not allow me to do so.

Cost is one major factor
At the same time reliability concerns and expensive maintenance are other two major factors, which put prospective buyers away from these hi tech DSG's.

[Ajaybiz]

Drove DSG and it changed my opinion about automatic cars, who says they will not thrill, accelerate and it shifts far better than any manual operator, better fuel efficiency and just for the itch of doing it manually one can choose the gears as well. City driven car should be automatic, highway drive again automatic has it's own advantage but again it's individuals choice, 4x4 yes here I prefer manual option.

[nakul0888]

I think for us to debate on the topic we should not jump between brands while talking about our choice of transmission. Like comparing cvt/ dsg of one brand with manual of another. I feel that for the debate to be more relevant we should stick to the same car.
So the question would be will the manual of a certain car be more fun than its competent auto???
Given the right type of car and the given that the manufacturer has actually given thought to its manual gearbox ( you reading this fiat ?? ) I would say yes.

I have had the pleasure of keeping a vw beetle 2.0 AT in my garage for 3 months last year. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Had no issues or complaints about its 6 speed gb . Donno whether it was dsg or not. But after 2 weeks I had this feeling I was missing something here. Especially when I took it out on to some nice twisties. Felt like I was just being taken for a ride by the car itself. I definitely wished for a manual in that car. I am certain it would make for a better driving experience.

[itsashishsharma]

Originally Posted by nakul0888

I have had the pleasure of keeping a vw beetle 2.0 AT in my garage for 3 months last year. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Had no issues or complaints about its 6 speed gb . Donno whether it was dsg or not. But after 2 weeks I had this feeling I was missing something here. Especially when I took it out on to some nice twisties. Felt like I was just being taken for a ride by the car itself. I definitely wished for a manual in that car. I am certain it would make for a better driving experience.

So, to sum up what you just said, is it a manual gb that you needed with a clutch and a manual type stick, or you just wished for a manual override to the same AT, meaning no clutch, so that your left leg can rest, and the same AT stick that you can use to shift gear, or even better, paddle shifters?

[nakul0888]

Originally Posted by itsashishsharma

So, to sum up what you just said, is it a manual gb that you needed with a clutch and a manual type stick, or you just wished for a manual override to the same AT, meaning no clutch, so that your left leg can rest, and the same AT stick that you can use to shift gear, or even better, paddle shifters?

I meant I wished for a true manual, with a stick and a clutch pedal.( there was a manual override on the beetle through the AT lever)
Pulling paddles to me seems like a half baked way to be in control of the car. Other than requesting the car to give you another gear, you are not actually doing anything with the car by using paddle shift. That's my opinion.

[civic-sense]

Originally Posted by itsashishsharma

If you really need control, the manual mode is for you. In manual mode, it is pretty similar to the manual variant cars, you shift when you feel like. Moreover, it will downshift on its own just and just to avoid the car from stalling, it will upshift just to avoid entering the redline zone. This, in my opinion is best of both the worlds.

I had the same thoughts in my mind when I chose to buy the Civic. But during the 3 years I had it, I would have used the paddles during not more than 5 instances in total. And that too just to demo it to people who wanted to see how it worked. Never needed to use it, ever.

In auto mode, for a sudden downshift, one just have to floor the throttle. The transmission would drop a gear or two in a split second and you are good to go. Imagine doing that in a manual - release the throttle, press the clutch, change the gear, release the clutch and then press the throttle again. That overtaking opportunity that was before you, when you decided to do the gear change, is gone an hour ago. No thanks!

[manim]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

during the 3 years I had it, I would have used the paddles during not more than 5 instances in total. And that too just to demo it to people who wanted to see how it worked. Never needed to use it, ever.

Same here!
Never had a reason to use the paddles in 7.5 years.
The Civic AT does a wonderful job.

[Santoshbhat]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

. Imagine doing that in a manual - release the throttle, press the clutch, change the gear, release the clutch and then press the throttle again. That overtaking opportunity that was before you, when you decided to do the gear change, is gone an hour ago. No thanks!

Release the throttle : Done by right leg
Press the clutch : Done by left leg
Change the gear : Done by left hand
Press the throttle again : Done by the waiting right leg.

All this just flows for a seasoned driver. Its not as slow as typing the words out.

Its not like you are doing it one after the other. It can be done almost simultaneously. Also If you are planning an overtaking manoeuvre , in a manual you just wait behind in a lower gear and then pounce the moment you the that opening. The AT box does not let you do that. It shifts to a higher gear when you are doing the waiting and then drops down a gear or two when you floor. Precious moments are lost in this. Overtaking is always more comfortable in a manual car than an AT car.

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

In auto mode, for a sudden downshift, one just have to floor the throttle.

While this is indeed the way to downshift in an AT, this is what I find most odd in an AT - it makes me feel like I am doing the MT equivalent - flogging the A-pedal when in 5th gear at low speed/rpm.

Originally Posted by civic-sense

Imagine doing that in a manual - release the throttle, press the clutch, change the gear, release the clutch and then press the throttle again. That overtaking opportunity that was before you, when you decided to do the gear change, is gone an hour ago. No thanks!

Actually no. Folks who drive stick do these steps in a jiffy and it does not take any more than what it would take the auto-box to drop gears. See that Santoshbhat clarified this well.

Regarding AT vs MT :
I regularly drive an A-Star_AT and I like the convenience it provides in city traffic, though at times it feels very boring. There is this 40km stretch on NH47 that I have been doing atleast once a week for 2+ years on the AT. Normal drive, nothing to write home about, getting overtaken by even M800s etc. After a long time I did this route on an MT (a humble 2003 Alto-Lx) and boy I loved the whole drive, inspite of it being a 800cc, no-PS car - drop gears, rev & overtake even bigger cars like Swift/Dzire/Polo etc.

Ofcourse more-powered ATs might be more fun, but still personally I think the stick-shift experience is something else.

[civic-sense]

Originally Posted by Santoshbhat

Release the throttle : Done by right leg
Press the clutch : Done by left leg
Change the gear : Done by left hand
Press the throttle again : Done by the waiting right leg.

All this just flows for a seasoned driver. Its not as slow as typing the words out.

Its not like you are doing it one after the other. It can be done almost simultaneously. Also If you are planning an overtaking manoeuvre , in a manual you just wait behind in a lower gear and then pounce the moment you the that opening. The AT box does not let you do that. It shifts to a higher gear when you are doing the waiting and then drops down a gear or two when you floor. Precious moments are lost in this. Overtaking is always more comfortable in a manual car than an AT car.

I suppose you have driven both types, so you understand the difference. From my 15 years with manuals, I don't think I can beat an autobox when it comes to shifting gears.

Also, I often find myself in a dilemma when I have to overtake, whether a heavy foot on the throttle would be enough for the overtake or a gear shift is necessary. Once you have decided to go with the former, a change in mind halfway through can be dangerous as you have to let go the throttle first. With an AT, you just have to press further, and the transmission drops a gear, the engine still firing away.