[desdemona]

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Also, look at the irony, Toyota has realised that Hyundai's over the top styling of the Elantra is what worked and actually went back to the drawing board and came out with this new Altis which they have tried to make sharp and stylish from every angle. It's Toyota who is going by the ostentatious over the top styling.

The Toyota stood for brand values and till date it's legacy was boring design, reliable, old man's car, lifeless to drive.

With this new Altis Toyota is trying to change all 3 brand values and legacy it stood for. Quite ironic then, that you think Toyota is sticking to it's core values.

It's quite convenient to highlight the useless features of a car and put it down. Did you completely forget the fact that apart from ventilated seats, the Elantra has 6 airbags (4 more than Altis), ESP with traction control. These are the critical safety features apart from the ventilated seats, dual zone climate control and rear AC vents I mentioned earlier.

This is completely wrong. I mean not even close to being true.

Firstly, the Octavia. The Octavia not only in India but across Europe has a legacy and brand that is on par than the Corolla. The whole reason why Skoda brought back the Octavia name to india was because of the legacy this brand had. The identity the Octavia had was legendary which is why Skoda had to bring it back.

The Laura and now Octavia are far superior when it comes to engines, features and are almost exactly the same to drive as the VW counterpart. The supposedly cheaper Skoda has better materials than the VW you claim as better.

Worldwide Skoda is the budget brand but in India it is the Skoda that is more premium than the VW. The VW is more simple with lower features and lower specced engines. Exactly the opposite of what you are saying.

Hi Vid.

The current Skoda Octavia has thinner (but still acceptable) sheet metal than the Laura, or the current Jetta, or the Linea, you will agree, as has been stated in reviews both here and in the UK. btw, how would you compare the build quality/solidity of not the Laura but the CURRENT Octavia to the new Corolla?

The VW vento is priced and equiped with superior engine +gearbox (tsi+dsg) than the badge-engineered and cheaper Skoda rapid. The VW Passat, though it was outsold heavily by the Superb was clearly positioned above Skoda. So I am not wrong in saying that EVEN in India Skoda-s are positioned below VW, in Europe but also here. Of course, many people in India believe it is the other way around, since Skoda was here in India long before VW.

Skoda-s, just talking global brand history and reputation here, are not regarded as a cut above Toyota, in fact the opposite is true, and I am not even going to go where it really hurts Skoda: reliability and ASS quality and expenses.

Besides, i fully acknowledged it's a great car, hell I seriously considered buying it recently as I said, I just pointed out that it, to me, has no identity of its own, since it, like all Skoda-s (except the Yeti) is just a cheaper VW, though as good, and very sorely lacks design imagination TO MY (totally debatable) EYE only.

I agree though that the Elantra is a breakthrough car for Hyundai, both in India/China and the US and I agree Toyota and Honda are having to respond to the Korean challenge. But to say the new Corolla is overstyled and ostentatious while the Elantra is somehow in good taste is just wrong. IMO only.

I guess we can call it quits on this subject, then! Will be interesting to see how this corolla fares in the car bazaar.

cheers.

[prakhar1998]

Originally Posted by desdemona

Skoda-s, just talking global brand history and reputation here, are not regarded as a cut above Toyota, in fact the opposite is true, and I am not even going to go where it really hurts Skoda: reliability and ASS quality and expenses.

Besides, i fully acknowledged it's a great car, hell I seriously considered buying it recently as I said, I just pointed out that it, to me, has no identity of its own, since it, like all Skoda-s (except the Yeti) is just a cheaper VW, though as good, and very sorely lacks design imagination TO MY (totally debatable) EYE only.

cheers.

Firstly, Skoda's reliability outside India is far higher than it is here. This is because of the sub standard ASS provided here.

So, if Skodas were more expensive than VW cars, then VW cars would lose their identity? Please tell me, I am very curious.

So you are suggesting Skoda cars should be more expensive?

This thinking is never right. The more expensive product isn't always better.

[desdemona]

Originally Posted by prakhar1998

Firstly, Skoda's reliability outside India is far higher than it is here. This is because of the sub standard ASS provided here.

So, if Skodas were more expensive than VW cars, then VW cars would lose their identity? Please tell me, I am very curious.

This thinking is never right. The more expensive product isn't always better.

The cheaper-for-more car is not always better VFM.

VW, like their cars or not, have an identity, historically evolved, that defines what automotive (including design and reliability etc) values they have stood for, and what they 'promise' to give the buyer. Toyota has a different identity, but it does have an evolved identity. Hyundai is many years still from acquiring such a strong, all-round identity.

Of course, one need not care for such brand-values stuff, and many maybe most buyers in India discount such logics, but i feel cars are as much cultural and aesthetic-identity based as based just on material, physical attributes. One buys as much into a brand-story/history/identity as one buys bhp, torque, climate control, or ventilated seats.

Which is why I've been arguing for more respect to be given to the new Corolla, and/or, depending on taste, to the VW Jetta, than to the Hyundai Elantra or the Skoda Octavia.

[Vid6639]

Originally Posted by desdemona

Hi Vid.

The current Skoda Octavia has thinner (but still acceptable) sheet metal than the Laura, or the current Jetta, or the Linea, you will agree, as has been stated in reviews both here and in the UK. btw, how would you compare the build quality/solidity of not the Laura but the CURRENT Octavia to the new Corolla?

Unfortunately this is not Skoda's fault. I agree the current new Octavia has thinner sheet metal than the Laura and current Jetta. This is a result of the new MQB platform which focuses on cost cutting. I'm pretty sure the new Jetta will have similar lower grade sheet metal since the new Jetta is going to be based on the MQB. Remember the current Jetta is actually a generation older golf than the Octavia. While the Octavia is based on the Mark7 Golf (MQB platform), the Jetta we have is still based on the older Mark6 Golf (No MQB). The MQB Jetta is expected only next year.

And as a current Altis owner, I can also tell you that the new Altis has thinner sheet metal than the older Altis and very noticeably thinner that too. Even the plastic bumpers are much more thinner than the one's on my car.

The VW vento is priced and equiped with superior engine +gearbox (tsi+dsg) than the badge-engineered and cheaper Skoda rapid.

This is a block by VW parent company. They basically have prevented Skoda from using the TSI and DSG to maintain the premium brand image. The Skoda will be getting this combination most probably this year.

Also, the European spec Rapid has been brought to India for some R&D/Evaluation so some updates to the Rapid are on the card.

The VW Passat, though it was outsold heavily by the Superb was clearly positioned above Skoda. So I am not wrong in saying that EVEN in India Skoda-s are positioned below VW, in Europe but also here. Of course, many people in India believe it is the other way around, since Skoda was here in India long before VW.

Ofcourse the VW's are positioned above Skoda. VW is trying to fool the customer into thinking that VW is the premium brand whereas the Skoda is the budget brand. In reality the Skoda is specced in a higher trim than the VW but VW still prices the VW above the Skoda.

If you compare the top end Skoda Octavia to the VW Jetta you will see that the Skoda gets much more features than the VW at an almost similar price.

[RohanDheman]

Some pics of the car picked up by my sister and brother in law today. One of the first in the country. Top of the line automatic.

Rohan






Sent from my iPhone using Team-BHP

[mod_to_odd]

Originally Posted by RohanDheman

Some pics of the car picked up by my sister and brother in law today. One of the first in the country. Top of the line automatic.

Rohan


Sent from my iPhone using Team-BHP

Beautiful car, and many congratulations. Is this the pearl white color or super white II ? And when ever you drive it please share your experience.

[nik_kapur]

Originally Posted by mod_to_odd

I get it. People have different tastes. You find it sad but I am also very selective when it comes to interiors. Its something different they tried to do this time and it is just so much better than the previous gen corolla. That's all.

Well i disagree. The previous generation corolla has much nicer interiors.
The exterior no doubt is top notch on the new car.
The clock should not be there. Its a strict no no from my side
Also, if one looks at the A7 interior, this seems like a cheap ripoff !!

[vb-saan]

The dashboard follows the styling of some old Toyota models, but it looks much better in person. Probably the carbon fibre treatment makes it look very tacky in pictures.

What’s appalling is the way they have skipped on the safety features. This maybe the only new car in its segment/price range that does not provide airbags all around, and no ESP.

Originally Posted by desdemona

The current Skoda Octavia has thinner (but still acceptable) sheet metal than the Laura, or the current Jetta, or the Linea, you will agree, as has been stated in reviews both here and in the UK. btw, how would you compare the build quality/solidity of not the Laura but the CURRENT Octavia to the new Corolla?

The so-called thin sheet metal comes from the fact that almost all manufacturers are looking at weight-saving measures to improve efficiency. With newer generations, cars are getting lighter and more rigid body panels. For example, I hear that the upcoming new C is around 100kg lighter than the current C-class sold in India. That does not make it any less safe than the outgoing model.

[Slush_Traveller]

i don't know if it's appropriate to ask this question in this thread but I have one doubt in my mind, is a thinner sheet metal a safety concern ? because now a days all the cars are using thinner sheet metal compared to previous generation cars be if for cost cutting or weight reduction, but in case of an accident the safety features and the cars crumple zone pays an important role right and not the sheet metal ?
Please share your views regarding this and mods please move the question to appropriate thread if required.

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by Slush_Traveller

i don't know if it's appropriate to ask this question in this thread but I have one doubt in my mind, is a thinner sheet metal a safety concern ? because now a days all the cars are using thinner sheet metal compared to previous generation cars be if for cost cutting or weight reduction, but in case of an accident the safety features and the cars crumple zone pays an important role right and not the sheet metal ?

Its just a reason to bash up certain brands and models, bringing up the safety aspect. In reality, the ones who regard thick sheet metal to be an important safety feature are trying to rewrite the laws of physics. The weakest link in a car absorbs most of the crash energy. If the whole car is built like a tank, you can guess where the energy gets passed on to. There is a whole thread discussing this aspect. Be it the corolla or any european car with thick sheet metal as claimed. I believe every car has a considerable or a lot of engineering involved and they dont decide material specifications without proper research. We cant bash up either the corolla or any other car just because the body panels are thin and get dented easily. What makes up the structure is important, and as we know, different parts of the structure are now built with varying thickness, which is the base of crumple zones.

[desdemona]

Yes agreed about ultimate safety being in tact despite thinner sheet metal IF the manufacturer has not skimped on the strength and design of chassis and crumple zone members. But what about ease of and cost of repairability? The thinner the sheet metal the higher the chances of having to replace whole panels/doors etc, rather than being able to get denting done at even some road-side mechanic's.?

One doesn't just want to be safe, one wants to be able to have the car survive too, no?, at an affordable cost that is! IMO, there is no getting around tough, thick sheet metal, if this reasoning is valid.

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by desdemona

The thinner the sheet metal the higher the chances of having to replace whole panels/doors etc, rather than being able to get denting done at even some road-side mechanic's.?

One doesn't just want to be safe, one wants to be able to have the car survive too, no?.

I guess in foreign coutries, dependency on tinkers is very less and they prefer replacing damaged parts in order to save labour costs, which is expensive compared to our country. Whether panels are thick or thin, if its damaged considerably, its replaced. And its only in Indian traffic's state that causes the nicks and dents. Elsewhere, its a shunt, wreck or nothing. Its only in our country that the road side mechanics try to get wrecked cars back to shape as if nothing had happened cosmetically. Structurally, such cars are dead.

So, if we want international products to come and land here, its all a part of the package. Even Skoda and VW have started toning down their cars for obvious reasons. But I think build quality has a lot more to do with just sheet metal. In that regard, I dont think the Corolla, whether the Altis or the current version comes close to the corresponding German competition. Those AC vents in the latest Corolla, along with the display in the center look like an aftermarket blower added to the dash.

[rps1]

Toyota is losing sales in deisel segment due to under-powered engine, 1.3, 88 PS for 15 lakh plus. What is stopping them to increase the engine to 1.8 and 140 PS ? No one really cares for shape that much, where such under-powered engine is given for a premium price car. Imagine a Toyota Fortuner powered by 1.5 Litre engine and 100 PS in it. Will Toyota see the sales that it currently seeing for Fortuner ? They should not deprive Toyota fans from taking Corolla desiel just because of a really sheepish engine.

[nikhil0405]

Originally Posted by desdemona

The 'immaturity' i was referring to was of the car-buying public: after all we are, what, barely into the second decade of 'world-class' car model availibility? And, outside of team-bhp say, you will agree that the degree of awareness about historical design languages, histories of individual car-model brands (e.g., the Corolla) not to mention engineering and safety is very limited indeed.

We tend to so easily ignore the fact that Hyundai has only very lately started making high-quality sedans in our market, the current Elantra is the first credible, well-rounded large sedan from Hyundai. IMO we ought to be showing not deference but some, due respect to car-brands like the Corolla or the VW Jetta that have, instead, a long and strong legacy.

People in India do not change their as often as in other developed countries hence they always tend to take the "tried and tested" and safe path. Calling that immature is not correct.
Hyundai has been making "quality" products since long. Ask any old Santro owners and you will know.
Having driven a Corolla for 4 years in the US, I never faced a single issue with the car. At the same time I would not bash another company like Hyundai that has good quality cars and very good A.S.S. in my opinion.

[quadbike]

Originally Posted by Vid6639

So tell me if a buyer is looking at a no non sense car with no fixed budget yet in mind. What extra traits does the Altis offer or USP's that the City does not?

What would be the biggest factor that a guy looking at the city would want to jump to the Altis.

Within the segment what is the pulling/USP factor that the Altis is having over the Elantra?

If anyone is looking at reliability and maintenance costs in check, the Elantra is a very difficult proposition to not consider. Both cars offer similar driving pleasure or lack thereof.

If I was looking at driving pleasure then why would I chose the Altis over the Skoda Octavia or the Jetta?

My friend who is upgrading from a Gen 3 city picked up the new Altis. The reasons were.

1. He wanted a car from the segment above, he has had several promotions since his last purchase and wanted a car more up to his current status, hence the new City was not an option.

2. He is way too busy to fight with Skoda/VW dealerships and coming from a Honda he wasn't ready for the Skoda/VW high service costs and ASS hassles.

3. The Toyota sales guy said the max service cost he could expect was Rs.4000-6000, a fact confirmed by many Toyota owners in team-bhp. Compared to this for Elantra we are looking at 10K+ with Hyundai service staff kept on their toes to get more VAS jobs for added incentive.

4. The Car looks the part, even the interiors are good from the G and GL variants. The new face gives it more presence.

5. Coming from a 1.3 City he was not that concerned about the power, and driven mostly in Kerala Highways it doesn't matter much (according to him).

6. Lack of rear AC was a sore point but the ACC is very effective and cools the cabin easily even with an indicated temperature of 36 degrees on the outside, and the TD car was not even parked in the shade.

7. There are no Fog lamps even in the top of the line Diesel variant, but the SA said it (along with the LED DRL/Projector of the GL) could be bought and fitted as accessories in the coming months.

8. Toyota's USP is reliability and low cost of maintenance.