18th April 2015, 12:17 | #91 |
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| Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast! Listing down the points you've mentioned serially, I find that these are issues that we think of when we compare any car - whether it is between makes, models or class 1. Make X/Segment X vehicles are ugly. Disproportionate and are designed as an afterthought. 2, Whatever, it is still a hatchback trying to look like a sedan. Why not buy the hatchback instead? : Applicable for most compact and subcompact sedans 3. Ok, might be the case. But you are paying so much more for just a boot! : Again applicable for any decision regarding boot Something even an XUV buyer would wonder about 4. So you want a sedan. And you want it cheap! Why not get a proportionate small sedan then? Verito / Etios / Fiesta Classic/ Chevrolet Sail? : same as point 1 5. Enough of this entry level sedan nonsense. If I were you - I would just buy the premium hatchback instead : Again a thought process of anyone comparing across segments, not only sub 4m sedans 6. At approximately 20 - 30% higher we are getting VW Vento, Nissan Sunny, Honda City etc. So why not upgrade to that? : Upgrade is again in the mind of any purchaser. (If I pay x amount more I can buy higher segment car) 7. But these cars have proper bootspace - which offer decent storage space. Compact sedans have miniscule boot similar to the hatchback siblings : Same as point 3 8. Not only bootspace, these compact sedans are cramped for interior space : Precisely something I should think about whether I buy a Alto or a 5 series. 9. Its not only about space. These cars will have better performance compared to the segment Iam considering/model Iam considering! 10. Safety? Now you cant argue on that one! The quality of sheet metal used on these compact sedans are pathetic (No yard stick - so am ignoring) 11. Features? The other segment/make have more goodies! 13. Its not like the manufacturer is doing you a favour by offering a compact sedan : Eh? Not clear. Which manufacturer is doing anyone a favour? 14. Dude, if you are hell bent on sub 4m - why dont you consider the sub 4m Ford Ecosport instead? : If you are hell bent on any one particular feature, it may be available across segments. People are not hell bent on sub 4m, but on value Vs price equation So finally I come to your point 15 and ask 15. So, what is the whole point? What you have done, dear Crazydriver, is list down a few decision making issues every car purchaser undergoes, irrespective of the segment Should appreciate your efffort though. Cheers |
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18th April 2015, 12:19 | #92 | ||||||
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| Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast! Sorry, I'll have to disagree to most of the points based on facts. I owned a Ikon 1.3L for 5+ years and currently own a Fiesta 1.6L for 5+ Years. Quote:
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I've read very good threads and posts of you and I'm quite surprised that this thread and the arguments are kind of bordering on fanboyism. Last edited by Aditya : 20th April 2015 at 12:50. Reason: Please use the Quote function the correct way | ||||||
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18th April 2015, 14:33 | #93 | ||||||
Team-BHP Support | Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast! Quote:
Would appreciate a mutually respectable tone however. That was my first reply to you in the thread and the first time i mentioned 'old platform'. It was not there in the opening post. Not sure where i was harping and why I'm being a fanboy when I only presented my arguments and my knowledge. You are welcome to disagree on it factually. Quote:
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You share platforms across the globe - that surely is a method of cost cutting. Agreed. But unfortunately - it doesn't work that way due to currency differences etc. The Dacia Logan which is one of the cheapest sedans out there became expensive when it reached here. The Chinese Sail went over our heads as well, as did the Etios which feels way more dated inside that a Ford Ikon as well. Manufacturers chose to bring in older hatchbacks of theirs in a cost effective manner to the Indian market as sedans earlier. Now, they have resorted to bringing in new versions, which go under the sub-4m radar and thereby keeping costs competitive. I believe we wouldnt have been so passionate in our hate towards the Amaze or Xcent or Zest or Aspire (I purposefully leave out DZire, Verito Vibe) if they had been showcased without their equivalent hatchbacks alongside. Quote:
However, coming back to your original point on how the compact sedans 'killed performance' - as i mentioned earlier. FE requirements killed it, but let us wait till the Europeans join the hunt. What if the Polo 1.2 TSi is made available in a compact? Since Polo has it, they should be able to offer that. Or even the rumoured Suzuki turbo petrols? Performance is evolving. The old NA engines are giving way to smaller turbo petrols everywhere, not just India. Quote:
I'm only telling the reason they looked good. Relax the sub-4m rules and you still cannot make a sedan like the Fiesta out of Grand i10 / Swift / Brio simply because they are all tall designs. Any good sedan designs out of these cars will also end up in the C segment. Designs have grown taller to accomodate for more interior room. As i mentioned in another post earlier, the Honda City is almost as tall as a Renault Duster if you remove the roof rails. It looks proportionate because of the length. Compare the height of the first generation city to the latest and you will know how much it has grown over the years in terms of height. However, I still feel that Amaze is a proportional design. I dont think it is better than a Fiesta, simply because I am a fan of simple design philosophies (except may be the Elantra). Amaze has too many cuts and slants on the sides, but that doesn't cut for proportions. Quote:
Glad that you were. Smaller cars have made the manufacturers think more over the years in terms of packing. | ||||||
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18th April 2015, 15:04 | #94 | |||||||
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| Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast! Quote:
When you bring, 'Old Platform' into the discussion which factually didn't have any relevance to the current Compact sedans, it is harping. Quote:
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It's absolutely fine for you to say, "I didn't buy a compact sedan for status". You have all the rights to say it. Through this thread you want me to believe all 30000 people a month are using the same rationale? Sorry, no. Last edited by Aditya : 20th April 2015 at 12:53. Reason: Please use the Quote function the correct way. | |||||||
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18th April 2015, 15:21 | #95 | |
Team-BHP Support | Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast! Quote:
The thread is only reasoning that all 30,000 people a month are not using that rationale for purchase. And there is something more in the segment too, than mere sedan status as we perceive it here. Would be more fruitful if we keep it factual then. Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 18th April 2015 at 15:29. | |
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18th April 2015, 15:45 | #97 |
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| Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!
Yes you are right about the fact that now a days cars have higher ground clearance than their yesteryear's counterpart but that is also a reason why this whole CS design look disproportionate. Civic had low ground clearance yet, it sold well even on our uneven roads. I think if lowering GC for the sake of looks is necessary then someone should do it and see the market response. If the car is good enough in other aspects then atleast the urban population will gladly accept it. May be I'm talking non-sense here or the market will be too small to consider for manufacturers but you know good looks is normally my first priority while choosing a car. Last edited by Carpainter : 18th April 2015 at 15:47. |
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18th April 2015, 15:59 | #98 |
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| Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast! There are people who find compact/compromised sedans the ideal choice. If the Figo Aspire handles like the Fiesta I would pick it up above the many boats on offer that cost north of ten lakhs. And Ford is offering 6 airbags for Aspire, can't recollect any car other than old i20 which offered 6 airbags. The argument that they look like contraptions is bit far fetched. I can't find anything wrong with Amaze and Zest, even the Aspire from the pictures available. I do agree that they don't look as beautiful as Vento or Fiesta, but not everyone can stretch their budgets. |
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18th April 2015, 16:22 | #99 | |
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| Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast! Great thread. But whether you like it or not, the Compact sedan is the new segment manufacturers have created, and safe to say that it's well accepted in India. The figures speak for themselves. Who created this segment? The government did. They created a move tax cars under 4 m length lesser, and the manufacturers saw potential in slapping a boot onto the Hatchback. It makes sense for all families which have one car to buy a compact sedan as the running cost is as cheap as the hatchback, gives you more space and of course it's compact. Still, the elite i20 or Jazz is a better option anyday. Quote:
But Maruti Brand+ Good engines makes it sell. Surprised that Xcent hasn't been able to dent the Dzire. (Xcent has a poor diesel) | |
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18th April 2015, 18:33 | #100 | |||||||||
Team-BHP Support | Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast! Quote:
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I do agree that it is nowhere comparable to a Swift DZire. Nor am I going to. But desirability at 30L could mean very different to ones at 6L. Lot of people desire to have a booted car simply because of the form factor (Be it for looks or status) and for them - a swift DZire is one. To qoute a fellow member from another thread (forgot which one). When a colleague of his remarked 'Did you see the new DZire with Honda Grill? Looks cool right?', he understood that is what the market wants. Quote:
What if i rephrase it as - In most of the international markets, the hatchback option is only for those who want the added practicality of NOT having a boot (The small and crowded streets of Europe for instance)? If the sedan isn't desirable as compared to a hatchback - why dont the biggies have hatchback versions? They had estate versions which are also a dying breed internationally. Put someone in the small crowded streets of Europe and ask him to choose between the Golf and Jetta - he would choose the Golf at same price. What if there are no restrictions on space? Like the US? Jetta of course. To take another example - We would have more BHP'ians from Bangalore worried about buying a big sedan over a hatchback, rather than from a small city like Trivandrum. Of course, this is 'my theory'. Waiting for your counter argument. Quote:
Sub 4m might be an Indian phenomenon, but smaller sedans are coming up in other countries as well. And manufacturers do small tuck-in jobs to stick to our rules. The Ka+ sedan for example has been tweaked for our market as Figo Aspire. Hyundai Xcent is being sent to SA and African markets. Quote:
But because of the engine and the fun it provides. Every time I step into the Xcent from the Punto - I appreciate the quality, the refinement, the space on offer etc. But it is not fun to drive. Fail. BUT - this is because only Koreans and Japs have entered the segment now. This question is relevant only because this is the only segment where we get hatchbacks at the price of sedans. It is similar to asking - Would you prefer a Honda City / VW Golf. Right? Unfortunately - we dont have such high end hatchbacks in India. Because even most of the enthusiasts who would blindly suggest i20 here wouldn't pay big money for a hatchback now. I can see the situation changing if the traffic continues to get worse over the next decade though. Quote:
Give more length for the Amaze / Xcent boot, it would only ruin the proportions further by being tail happy. Zest and Aspire could use a bit more though IMO. Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 18th April 2015 at 18:41. | |||||||||
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18th April 2015, 18:46 | #101 |
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| Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast! Ok my views. But before I start, let me put a disclaimer. "I have a Punto." And if that is not enough, then one more. "It was not a heart decision, it was as much a decision from head as it was from heart." Now that it is established that normal people do not think the way I do, lets start. Now, Will I buy any of the compact sedans? No. Reasons? OK lets start one by one. Swift Dzire. I absolutely loathe the way it looks. There is no way I can visualise myself driving one. Looks are ofcourse subjective, and thats my subjective verdict. If I want a Swift, it would be for a set of reasons, additional litres of boot doesn't feature there. I will just buy the Swift. Amaze. For all its proportions going for it, I still dont like it. Moreover, interiors feel worse than my Punto. Boot is massive at 400 Litres, but if I need more than the 270 litres of my Punto, that would still not make me look beyond the obvious dislikes I have with Amaze. Zest. This is the one I like most among the compacts. But somehow, I feel that if I am cajoled to buy a Tata vehicle other than Safari, it would still not be Zest. Something does not feel right. I dont know what, but although I liked the car, when I came out of the showroom I felt underwhelmed. Xcent. Hmm this is another strong contender. However if I am to buy xcent for 7.xx big ones, I would rather put some more and get the i20. Well thats me. |
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18th April 2015, 19:03 | #102 | |||
BHPian | Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast! Quote:
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So still, your points aren't convincing enough to the rest 90+% consumers who go for the MT, to go for the CS over the hatchback. Quote:
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18th April 2015, 19:25 | #103 | ||
Team-BHP Support | Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast! Quote:
Between - I wasn't trying to convince anyone to go for CS over a hatchback! Quote:
"The Amaze's wheelbase is longer than the Brio's by 60 mm, and it does appear that the entire 60 mm has gone to the rear." And no - Xcent and DZire and Zest has the same wheelbase as their hatchback siblings. | ||
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18th April 2015, 22:05 | #104 | |||
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| Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast! A beautiful write up. Now, my views on Compact Sedans. 1. Am I a fan of Compact Sedans? No 2. Why NOT? Coz, they charge too much of a premium (how much ever it is) for just a boot. 3. Will I ever buy a Compact Sedan? May be - the ONLY choice I'll make in CS is Zest!! 4. Why Zest and not anything else? It's a great car inside out. And substantial difference (engine taking the max weightage and additional equipment adding bonus points) with it's hatchback sibling which makes me believe the premium is justified. 5.Does Zest look great? Average looks! If you see the boot + C-pillay in isolation, that's one of the worst designs you have seen. 6. What's good about the CS then? Extra boot space. That helps when the car has 4 people on board. Quote:
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18th April 2015, 23:59 | #105 | |
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| I think the choice between a CS and an equivalent hatchback depends more upon the buyer and his requirements. Take the example of the Swift and the Dzire. For approximately 70 k more you get better interiors (Indians love beige), slightly more leg space, much more boot space and a slightly better ride quality. But you do lose out on sharp handling and of course looks. Similarly, compare the Zest and Bolt and you'll realise that the former offers a better deal. For someone who wants a sedan, compacts do almost everything (except for space) better than full size sedans like the Etios and Sail. So in the end it all boils down to what you want from your car. If you want the extra space and can do with the looks, a CS is for you. Quote:
The Zest and Bolt have almost equal leg space, but the Zest has a bigger boot. The Bolt's boot is considered small even by hatchback standards. Last edited by moralfibre : 19th April 2015 at 08:20. Reason: Back to back posts | |
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