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Old 27th February 2017, 14:47   #1261
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Default Re: The Maruti-Suzuki Ignis

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Originally Posted by nimit3105 View Post
Steering:- Lifeless. That's a good and bad thing. It's good because it's very light at low speeds and it's very easy to maneuver in city traffic. It weighs up a bit as you gain speed. It's bad because there's absolutely no feedback from it and one has to be careful as it doesn't turn back after taking a U-Turn. Maybe it will improve over time.
Steering returnability will not change over time. If you are really concerned with this, please ask the Service centre to check wheel alignment. This is one of the primary reasons for poor steering returnability.
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Old 27th February 2017, 15:55   #1262
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Originally Posted by AutoNoob View Post
Steering returnability will not change over time. If you are really concerned with this, please ask the Service centre to check wheel alignment. This is one of the primary reasons for poor steering returnability.
This problem is there in all the Vehicles. So, it may not be the wheel alignment problem.

I've Test driven in 3 different Cars and all have the same problem. The only thing, that could be done is getting used to it..
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Old 27th February 2017, 16:00   #1263
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Default Re: The Maruti-Suzuki Ignis

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Originally Posted by jaaz View Post
This problem is there in all the Vehicles. So, it may not be the wheel alignment problem.
I've Test driven in 3 different Cars and all have the same problem. The only thing, that could be done is getting used to it..
I have not driven the Ignis, but if the returnability is a concern, then I can only say "God bless the customers and forgive the designers".

This is the very basic requirement and must be sorted out at the beginning of design, before the finalization of hard-points of suspension and steering.
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Old 27th February 2017, 18:28   #1264
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Default Re: The Maruti-Suzuki Ignis

I am sorry @AutoNoob, but returnability of steering to original position is not a design requirement of highest priority. It is mostly intentional, I guess, with a much higher priority given to a light steering for city usage. This is a feature in Numerous city cars in Europe as well.
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Old 28th February 2017, 09:36   #1265
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Default Re: The Maruti-Suzuki Ignis

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Originally Posted by Carma2017 View Post
I am sorry @AutoNoob, but returnability of steering to original position is not a design requirement of highest priority. It is mostly intentional, I guess, with a much higher priority given to a light steering for city usage. This is a feature in Numerous city cars in Europe as well.
It is indeed related to customers' preference however it is also related to safety. And therefore, it is well defined and monitored during vehicle development (other vital parameter is On-centre feel). There are design standards specifying the minimum returnability that should be achieved after making a turn.

I agree with your point that returnability and light steering are inversely proportional. However, that is evident primarily with manual steering. With the advent of power steering (hydraulic or electro-mechanical), designers can achieve both within design intended specifications.

For past few years, Active Return feature is gaining popularity (albeit in premium segment) to achieve good returnability. This employs the same EPS mechanism along with steering angle sensor and additional in-built logic. (PS: Most EPS systems are based on torque sensing, so steering angle sensor is add-on requirement). You may also refer the below :

Source
Quote:
Active return is a convenience and safety-enhancing function of Volkswagen’s electromechanical power steering. The positive centering and the steering torque which results from this, even at the smallest steering angles, offer drivers an unprecedented standard of steering precision. Active return makes for more comfortable steering and a greater feeling of safety as fewer corrections have to be made to the steering.
As far as the concern raised by jaaz, it may arise due to borderline design, i.e. not fully taking into account the production variantions, and/or improper suspension and steering geometry control/ check.

Last edited by AutoNoob : 28th February 2017 at 09:40.
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Old 28th February 2017, 09:57   #1266
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Default Re: The Maruti-Suzuki Ignis

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Originally Posted by AutoNoob View Post
This is the very basic requirement and must be sorted out at the beginning of design, before the finalization of hard-points of suspension and steering.
It is a design trait of some EPS units. From MSIL stable, the steering of the tallboys like WagonR, Estilo etc doesn't return at all times. It really depends on the angle of the steering, speed of the car and the banking of the road at a given time.

But the one in the Swift is more responsive in that regard, even though it also got an EPS unit.

Looks like Maruti decided to go the tallboy way for the Ignis. I think they do this for the overtly assisted EPS units.
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Old 28th February 2017, 10:51   #1267
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Default Re: The Maruti-Suzuki Ignis

Quote:
Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
It is a design trait of some EPS units. From MSIL stable, the steering of the tallboys like WagonR, Estilo etc doesn't return at all times. It really depends on the angle of the steering, speed of the car and the banking of the road at a given time.

But the one in the Swift is more responsive in that regard, even though it also got an EPS unit.

Looks like Maruti decided to go the tallboy way for the Ignis. I think they do this for the overtly assisted EPS units.
I drive a WagonR and have a different experience than shared by you. My steering does return after U-turns, at all times. It may not be 100% back to centre (don't remember but can check today) but it must be at-least 75-80% of the turn.
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Old 28th February 2017, 10:53   #1268
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Default Re: The Maruti-Suzuki Ignis

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Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
It is a design trait of some EPS units. From MSIL stable, the steering of the tallboys like WagonR, Estilo etc doesn't return at all times.

Are you certain of this? My daily drive is a 2010 Estilo and I never had a situation where the steering didn't return to centre. My apartment parking is on 6th floor and I get to experience this everyday although the speed is 20ish @ 2nd/3rd gear. Even around 40ish it does return.

Did you mean higher speeds?

Last edited by SoumenD : 28th February 2017 at 10:55.
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Old 28th February 2017, 12:21   #1269
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Default Re: The Maruti-Suzuki Ignis

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Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
It is a design trait of some EPS units.
I humbly disagree with this. Based on my experience in development and integration of different type of steering systems, I can say that there is nothing which can be termed as 'design trait of EPS unit' that affects a customer in terms of performance.

In terms of driver’s experience, there are measurable differences amongst Hydraulic, Electro-Hydraulic and Electro-Mechanical (Electronic) Steering systems. However, when comparing EPS systems, be it C-EPS, P-EPS, DP-EPS, there are hardly any customer detectable differences. The choice of assist system and its specifications depends upon steerable axle load, packaging constraints, electronic integration, past-experience, supplier support, commonization strategy and obviously cost. (There are some 'traits' of Belt-Drive R-EPS or Inline R-EPS in terms of system friction and returnability, but they are well considered during development. Moreover, the segments that apply R-EPS are most likely to adopt some form of Active Return. AFAIK, mass segment car manufacturers in India are yet to adopt R-EPS)

The key factors affecting steering performance (customer detectable) are Suspension geometry (King Pin Inclination, Camber & Castor angles), Tire contact patch dynamics (Friction, Speed, Slip Angle), Overall steering ratio, system friction, available assist from assist system etc.

So, in my opinion, jaaz's concern may be based on a design intent or non-conformity in production or may be jaaz's past experience, where he might have been accustomed to vehicles with better steering returnability.

Quote:
From MSIL stable, the steering of the tallboys like WagonR, Estilo etc doesn't return at all times. It really depends on the angle of the steering, speed of the car and the banking of the road at a given time... But the one in the Swift is more responsive in that regard, even though it also got an EPS unit... Looks like Maruti decided to go the tallboy way for the Ignis. I think they do this for the overtly assisted EPS units.
Every OEM has a segment or vehicle based strategy, so there might be truth in your statement, however without detailed information I can't comment.
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Old 1st March 2017, 08:15   #1270
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Default Re: The Maruti-Suzuki Ignis

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Originally Posted by ashis89 View Post
I drive a WagonR and have a different experience than shared by you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoumenD View Post
My daily drive is a 2010 Estilo and I never had a situation where the steering didn't return to centre.
I have felt the return action on a WagonR or Estilo to be not so consistent or purposeful like that of a Swift. Sorry for the confusion! I didn't mean to say those steering system do not return at all. And as I mentioned earlier, it really depends on a lot of factors including road conditions and speed. If you are climbing a well paved hairpin at a reasonable speed, you can expect the steering to return always.

And this can be "fixed" to some extend by fiddling with the alignment, but maybe not be good for the tyre mileage in the long run. Some used car dealers resort to this to give that feel during test drives.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoNoob View Post
I humbly disagree with this. Based on my experience in development and integration of different type of steering systems, I can say that there is nothing which can be termed as 'design trait of EPS unit' that affects a customer in terms of performance....Every OEM has a segment or vehicle based strategy, so there might be truth in your statement, however without detailed information I can't comment.
I agree it is not EPS alone, but a host of components coming together to give any specific car its steering feel. All I wanted to say was that manufacturers do take the prospective customer segment into consideration before taking those decisions. Its not like MSIL doesn't know how to make steering systems that cater to enthusiasts, but they sometimes sign off based on what they think is best for a given car. Could have done the same for Ignis. Its not a defect, they just wanted it to be like it I guess. Just wanted to highlight that.
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Old 1st March 2017, 10:31   #1271
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Default Re: The Maruti-Suzuki Ignis

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoNoob View Post

This is the very basic requirement and must be sorted out at the beginning of design, before the finalization of hard-points of suspension and steering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carma2017 View Post
I am sorry @AutoNoob, but returnability of steering to original position is not a design requirement of highest priority. It is mostly intentional, I guess, with a much higher priority given to a light steering for city usage. This is a feature in Numerous city cars in Europe as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoNoob View Post

For past few years, Active Return feature is gaining popularity (albeit in premium segment) to achieve good returnability. This employs the same EPS mechanism along with steering angle sensor and additional in-built logic. (PS: Most EPS systems are based on torque sensing, so steering angle sensor is add-on requirement).

As far as the concern raised by jaaz, it may arise due to borderline design, i.e. not fully taking into account the production variantions, and/or improper suspension and steering geometry control/ check.
Quote:
Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
It is a design trait of some EPS units. From MSIL stable, the steering of the tallboys like WagonR, Estilo etc doesn't return at all times. It really depends on the angle of the steering, speed of the car and the banking of the road at a given time.

But the one in the Swift is more responsive in that regard, even though it also got an EPS unit.

Looks like Maruti decided to go the tallboy way for the Ignis. I think they do this for the overtly assisted EPS units.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoumenD View Post

Are you certain of this? My daily drive is a 2010 Estilo and I never had a situation where the steering didn't return to centre. My apartment parking is on 6th floor and I get to experience this everyday although the speed is 20ish @ 2nd/3rd gear. Even around 40ish it does return.

Did you mean higher speeds?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoNoob View Post
I humbly disagree with this. Based on my experience in development and integration of different type of steering systems, I can say that there is nothing which can be termed as 'design trait of EPS unit' that affects a customer in terms of performance.

In terms of driver’s experience, there are measurable differences amongst Hydraulic, Electro-Hydraulic and Electro-Mechanical (Electronic) Steering systems. However, when comparing EPS systems, be it C-EPS, P-EPS, DP-EPS, there are hardly any customer detectable differences. The choice of assist system and its specifications depends upon steerable axle load, packaging constraints, electronic integration, past-experience, supplier support, commonization strategy and obviously cost. (There are some 'traits' of Belt-Drive R-EPS or Inline R-EPS in terms of system friction and returnability, but they are well considered during development. Moreover, the segments that apply R-EPS are most likely to adopt some form of Active Return. AFAIK, mass segment car manufacturers in India are yet to adopt R-EPS)

The key factors affecting steering performance (customer detectable) are Suspension geometry (King Pin Inclination, Camber & Castor angles), Tire contact patch dynamics (Friction, Speed, Slip Angle), Overall steering ratio, system friction, available assist from assist system etc.

So, in my opinion, jaaz's concern may be based on a design intent or non-conformity in production or may be jaaz's past experience, where he might have been accustomed to vehicles with better steering returnability.


Every OEM has a segment or vehicle based strategy, so there might be truth in your statement, however without detailed information I can't comment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
I agree it is not EPS alone, but a host of components coming together to give any specific car its steering feel. All I wanted to say was that manufacturers do take the prospective customer segment into consideration before taking those decisions. Its not like MSIL doesn't know how to make steering systems that cater to enthusiasts, but they sometimes sign off based on what they think is best for a given car. Could have done the same for Ignis. Its not a defect, they just wanted it to be like it I guess. Just wanted to highlight that.
As far as I can observe there are two different aspects of steering wheel mechanism that are being mixed:-
1) Feedback.
2) Returnability.

In an ideal world the best unit would have been the one with following:-
1) light at city speeds.
2) Slight heft at highway speeds.
3) quick turn ratio.
4) good feed back from road surfaces.
5) high degree of self centering.

Unassisted steerings cater to points 3,4&5 brilliantly but are very heavy at parking speeds and are hefty at highway speeds as well leading to driving fatigue.

Examples of good unassisted steerings mechanisms at lower price points:-

Erstwhile Maruti Suzuki Zen and Maruti Suzuki esteem.

Hydraulic units usually cater to 1,2,3,4&5 but they are not finger tweerling light at parking speeds and as they use hydraulic pump and motor set up, they are slightly less fuel efficient.

Examples of good HPS at lower price points:-

1) Erstwhile Ford Figo and Fiesta classic.
2) First generation Fiat Punto.

In the interest of fuel efficiency most manufacturers have shifted to EPS system. In their infancy they were good for point 1 only. With later development of related technologies these systems are getting better at points 2,3,4&5 that too at cheaper price points.

Examples of good EPS at lower price points:-
1. Tata EPS developed by ZF Germany, used on Nano twist, Tiago and Zest, all featuring active return technology.
2. Ford EPS used on erstwhile Ford Fiesta with 5 step assistance variation, active return and pull drift compensation.

Last edited by fuelinmyveins : 1st March 2017 at 10:33.
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Old 2nd March 2017, 22:39   #1272
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Default Re: The Maruti-Suzuki Ignis

Personalized roof design.

The Maruti-Suzuki Ignis-ignis.jpg

Also find the product brochure in the link below

https://marutistoragenew.blob.core.w...t_Brochure.pdf
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Old 4th March 2017, 21:56   #1273
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Default Re: The Maruti-Suzuki Ignis

About 10,000 Maruti Suzuki Ignis sold since January; 12,000 bookings pending.

Quote:
The carmaker is producing between 4,500-5,000 units of Ignis per month at its Gurgaon plant in Haryana which also manufactures the Vitara Brezza compact SUV. The Ignis is running a waiting period of 2-3 months currently.
ET
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Old 5th March 2017, 16:47   #1274
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Default Re: The Maruti-Suzuki Ignis

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Originally Posted by jetsetgo08 View Post
IMHO, the ignis would most likely be bought by a millenial, an urban resident(read IT sector employees). This is definitely not the car that would be bought in tier-3 cities/towns/villages etc.

However, the high numbers of swift are primarily due to the non-urban/sub-urban sales. The urban buyers have already moved on to Baleno/Brezza. However, it would take at least another 6 months for the initial surge to subside, due to the waiting period of Ignis.

The Swift still has takers, including me.
Well, I bought the Ignis and I'm in a very small tier 3 town. It's perfect for my needs.

It's been a month and about 900 kms and the first service is now due. Very happy with the performance and comfort, just a point of concern - the clutch has become very soft. The pedal's biting point is at the bottom and the the top half of the travel is loose and lifeless - almost as if the clutch plates have given way.. yet the gears slot positively and there's no excess raise in the rpm (Like when the clutch is gone) Hope to have it rectified in the 1st servicing, but I think it can't be adjusted manually.
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Old 6th March 2017, 16:12   #1275
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Default Re: The Maruti-Suzuki Ignis

My car gave upto 22 KMPL on a weekend inter city drive without traffic and has been giving > 17 KMPL with AC on which exceeds my expectations since I never expected more than 15 from a Petrol.

The car is pretty stable overall but I am a little disappointed with braking. Not sure if this is specific to my vehicle but I remember the Test Drive vehicles had better braking power on same spec versions. Will get it inspected at 1st Service.

Overall very satisfied with features on offer and excellent drive-ability as it runs like an automatic as even 5th Gear 20-25 kmph is normal with little stress.

Shall be going on a long drive in a fortnight to test its highway capabilities. So far, I've been driving at 40-60 kmph usually to put things under control in the running in period after which the real fun starts.

Last edited by hondacity : 6th March 2017 at 16:14.
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