[AjMusto]

Post deleted by the Team-BHP Support : Please do NOT post messages that add little or no informational value to the thread. We need your co-operation to maintain the quality of this forum.

Please read our rules before proceeding any further. We request you to post ONLY when you have something substantial to add to a discussion.

[Prithwitheraj]

Originally Posted by Shiwik

It is quite interesting to see a majority off the folks encouraging tata for their products and wishing them well to get to better numbers.

Cause its genuinely a great product and some like us who opted for it are really happy and clueless why people are opting for other options :-D. There would be many who are waiting to have this product proven by the people.

Originally Posted by Shiwik

i was checking out the zest during my service visit for my aria, and i must admit, it was extremely well built compared to competition. I tried the Harman music system and I would strongly encourage everyone to try it out once. I personally felt it is simple brilliant and the sound quality was something i have never heard before in an automobile (probably it is just the outdated me).

Harman system is just awesome specially music above 190kbps... Was one of the points which lured me to buy a zest Superbly balanced music experience. Specially XT variant

[anand_lukose]

Thank you for the data and the wonderful analysis again. Keep up the great work. I am also curious to see CV segment data as well. I guess its my stock market mindset kicking in but it would be great to have.

I have been a silent reader of the thread I wait for the most every month. However, like many of us here, I fail to understand the reasoning behind many faulty decisions car companies make. India is a very difficult, brutal and an unforgiving market and a new/struggling company needs high capital to focus on after market service networks, spare parts and obviously value on the product.

Some advice to manufacturers with low/struggling volumes

1) India is a big market. Pan India roll out of any new vehicle in fierce segments is extremely difficult. A successful money spinning product would inherently need a great product + strong after sales/spares network and continued improvement. I think many new products spike during launch and falter soon.

My advice to such companies is to focus on micro-markets than Pan India. Depending on your product category, focus on the top few cities by investing in good people to manage sales and service. The rest will take care of its own. Word of mouth from bigger cities will determine the success or failure of the product. Long waiting times can be reduced in metros and this can influence a lot.

If your product has to sell in higher volumes, focus on a specific zone i.e North/South/East/West/Central, wherever growth in the segment is fastest. Spend your time and energy understanding how the product fits, make quick changes and slowly strategies for bigger pan-India release. I feel a pan-india launch ends up sucking managements time and energy on ironing out niggles.

2) After sales-service

This is one reason why Maruti is king. Focussing on this by following the above strategy helps.

Please make spare parts available easily. I cannot understand why car companies cannot sell spare parts online or use e-commerce portals for the same. Leverage independent garages to build trust among consumers.

[FuelInjector]

@Aditya - thanks for the post. Nice detailed report.
Glad and sad to see Honda overthrow Mahindra to make it to top3 in market share. With the Jazz coming out, it might well settle in this position till year end.
Do people think this might happen?
The buying trend on total number of vehicles seems pretty flat. 2lak additions every month. Somehow feel the figures for June are neither alarming nor exciting.
Maybe wait for the festive season in the next two months!

[bulletboy76]

Great analysis as always, kudos!!!

Here are my 2 cents:
I agree that the numbers is what finally matters, but still the heard mentality indeed plays a major role. I recently purchased a compact sedan. When I am in process of having test rides, comparing various options, almost all friends were surprised when I told them that I have not shortlisted any of Maruti’s models.

People keep saying that Maruti service is best / cheap - however my experience has not been so. My father's 9 years old Alto (75k kms run, now sold and replaced by Grand i10) used to cost around Rs 7000 - 9000 for a 10k km maintenance. As against that my Santro (9.5 year old, 82k kms run) never needed more than 5k for service (except for once where my bill was 8k).
Maruti has the largest service network in India and nobody can beat them on that. Probably that's the main reason they will remain on top of sales charts.

There is one more perception that Maruti products are 'value for money'. Again, my views are different on that that front too. I am not referring to service costs here, but just the initial price points.
For instance Maruti Dzire (which is on top of sales chart this month): The Diesel VDI in Pune costs roughly 8.16L (not even 1 rupee discount available, as the dealer claims that this is 'running model'). The Top end ZDI costs over 9L, and it has all safety features etc.
Compared to that , Tata Zest mid variant (XMS Diesel) costs around 7.9L (and off course there are some discounts / packages running) and it does have basic safety features (ABS, Airbags). On top of that there are loads of other features (Harmon music system, bigger boot space etc).
In no way can I accept DZire ZDI as VFM!

Sad part in this country is - There are people who prefer turn indicators on mirrors over Airbags.

PS: I am not a Maruti basher, nor Hyundai or Tata supporter, but these are my observations based on personal experiences.

[kavu75]

Originally Posted by TaurusAl

There seems to be a drop in Innova and Xylo figures. Not that Xylo's market share has been reduced drastically, but just guessing where the taxi operators have disappeared. Surely they wont wait for the new launch of Innova which seems to be in pipeline like a normal consumer would.

If these 2 aren't selling, what car has taken their share.

Could it be a Lodgy effect ?

There was schedule maintenance shutdown for a week at Toyota plant during June month. I have read this in some article when they announced June sales. That may be the reason for a slight drop in the numbers.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by dreamliner17

I agree with that GTO. But what i feel is, they can 'try' out and give flops!

Originally Posted by rajneeesh

The delay in launching a Diesel hurt them big time.

Correct. But what I'm trying to dispel is the myth that Maruti can sell anything. It can't, as is proven by its list of failures. Statements like this one are the ones that I'm trying to correct:

Originally Posted by vkarthikvkn

At this rate, even a fish cart with the Suzuki logo in front will ride to the top of the charts.

Originally Posted by manpreet.chadha

I wonder how brands like Chevrolet & Fiat are going to sustain in the long run. They are merely adding to their losses.

Fiat India is very profitable due to the engine business. They make between 200 - 300 crores every year - related thread.

Originally Posted by rrsteer

maybe we should look at cars sold per dealer of a brand.

This thread might interest you - link.

Originally Posted by Prithwitheraj

its genuinely a great product and some like us who opted for it are really happy and clueless why people are opting for other options

Just because you own a car doesn't mean you end up clueless of why others aren't buying it. We own a Sunny and love it - super reliable over 40,000 kms, excellent space & comfortable ride quality. But it's as easy to understand why the Sunny is a flop as it is to know why Tata is languishing in the car market.

Originally Posted by bulletboy76

People keep saying that Maruti service is best / cheap - however my experience has not been so.

I agree. Maruti's service costs are far from being the industry's cheapest.

[sadsack]

Originally Posted by srinath.s

Wow! Alto in 2nd spot. Am I dreaming? *pinches self*

Anyway, is this an indication of the Indian buyer finally waking up to better, quality products, not being merely satisfied with whatever manufacturers throw at him? As an example, B2 is consistently the largest segment for quite some time now. Looks like even the first time buyer is aspiring for the best!

Please do not read too much into the Dzire outselling the Alto. This has happened once before and the very next month the Dzire was in third place with the Alto taking the first place again. You cannot conclude that the first time buyer is opting for the best because he is buying a Dzire or what you are calling a car from the B2 segment. If anything it could indicate increase in purchase power and nothing more.

Originally Posted by RavenAvi

The Nissan Sunny has literally rolled down the buyers' slope! What is Nissan thinking about revamping the Sunny's sales, I wonder. For a VFM proposition in the C2-segment, it has really fallen down. No doubt, Nissan's pathetic and smaller After Sales' Service is the major contributor here.

Renault must be feeling the heat from the Creta & the S-Cross, with the overpriced Duster's sales falling month-after-month.

With the S-Cross, Figo Aspire, Creta, Figo hatch, Kite twins all lined up for launches ahead, the figures will be very interesting to follow all through the festive season ahead.

I think the case of the Sunny as well as the Micra is that Nissan has not really created communication strategy that made sense to the potential buyer. Even now the ads for the Terrano are the embodiment of stupidity.

Renault is not feeling any heat from the Creta and the S-Cross, not yet anyway. The Creta story will unfold next month while the S-Cross (for sometime A Cross) is not even anywhere near getting into the market. Don't read too much into that.

The Kite twins will go the Bolt/Zest way. The Zest sells in some decent numbers because the Manza did not look anything like the Zest. The Bolt is a different story. Everybody can see that it is Vista that has been to the beauty parlour and that perception is enough for people to not even go into a showroom to see the insides or find out about the Revotron. Sad but true. Now with the publicity in various media that the Kites are based on the even older Indica platform, I doubt if too many people will get to the showroom. Tata needs to wipe the slate clean and start all over again with new machines that are created from ground up.

Originally Posted by jvk84

• Duster gained this month, probably due to huge discounts they are offering.
• Celerio has fallen into the right track with AMT and Diesel options. I expect it to replace Alto/Dzire as the King soon.
  

Duster is not the only model and Renault is not the only manufacturer to give discounts. Everybody gives discounts these days and the fluctuations in the numbers are really marginal and not something to feel good about or feel bad about.

Don't put the Celerio at the top of the heap. The AMT did not help its petrol sales so much, so lets see how the diesel engine does. Remember this engine is not a tried and tested product but a first time exercise for Maruti to make a diesel, it is unconventional with two cylinders and unknown quantity in terms of long term reliability.

Originally Posted by jeepster_chd

And Tata Nano, 1700 isn't what Tata would have been expecting. I bought one last month and I find it notch better than its competition if not more. It surely deserves better sales. Good luck Tata.

I have always said this. The Nano was always a very good car. And what Tata has done with it is too little too late. I was sad to read in yesterday's New Indian Express, an interview with Ratan Tata who seems to have thrown in the towel and has said the Nano did not serve the purpose of making more people car owners and even if repositioning succeeds (he seemed sceptical about that) it still has to be taken to be a failure since the original goal was not reached. The reasons given by him were what everyone talks about except where he said the press had put the "cheap" tag and Tata did not counter it with the "affordable" tag. But to date it is one of my favourite cars and I enjoyed driving it every time I took it out. I hope it does well with the added AMT and Power Steering whose absence in the first place took some of the sales away.

Originally Posted by arnabchak

2) Sharp drop in Ciaz
Could be attributed to the market wait for the Creta/S Cross. Yet, fail to understand how and why City continues to hold on to its position?
Ciaz, other than the 1.3MJD is no lesser than the H car. Also, the iDtec is not a refined unit as well.

5) Why is GM and Fiat alive?

Again, with a cumulative sales of ~3K(Tavera accounts for 33% of these) how does GM survive?
FIAT fares worser with a sub 1K figure. The silver lining though is their national engine which gives them margins to sustain, marginally.
Datsun strategy was a wrong move. It is showing. The have shot themselves in the foot by introducing Datsun and further increasing their overhead costs. Not good for a company that is already having wafer thin dealer network and margins.
[/b]

Sharp drop in Ciaz again cannot be at this point in time the impending arrival of the Creta or the S Cross. Sedan buyers do not really look at SUVs or cross overs.

Please do not underestimate the Honda diesel because you read somewhere that it is harsh and coarse sounding. Nothing like that, it is well engineered and more than a match for any diesel engine in that category.

You will be surprised to know that Fiat is one of the very few profit making companies in India. I don't need to tell you why. That is why it is taking its time with the new portfolio so they do not make mistakes again. In comparison, Hyundai, Honda, Toyota, Ford, GM, Tata are all loss making companies. Ironical, but true.

Originally Posted by Aaron:)

Btw I expected the Lodgy to do much better. It does everything as well as the Innova, and some things even better.

The Lodgy is one product I would really like to see succeed. But I do not think it will happen (if it all it does happen) because it sold better than the Innova or dented the sales of the Innova significantly. Its success will depend on creating a new segment in between the Innova and the Ertiga. Lets wait and see.

Datsun I think has been hurt very badly for two reasons. One is that it started sales off with two non-AC variants and no CD player option. (By the way Honda still sells the stereo in the Brio with USB only and you can play only Version 1 and Version 2 USBs or pen drives on them. It does not play version 3. Sad part is Versions 1 and 2 are no longer made). The Datsun story will have to be seen with the car that shares the platform with the Kwid from Renault. Carlos Ghosn seems like a confident man and I hope that his love for Indian frugality and cost effectiveness will ultimately work for Renault-Nissan (with Datsun) in India. I have not seen any other head of any car company who had so much faith in the Indian process of doing things.

[NetfreakBombay]

Originally Posted by sadsack

In comparison, Hyundai, Honda, Toyota, Ford, GM, Tata are all loss making companies. Ironical, but true.

Are you sure about this?

1. HMIL has consistently reported positive net profit in last 10 years (http://www.slideshare.net/gondaliyamehul/fm-37393204 page 22)

2013-14 Net profit was 1000+ cror : http://archive.financialexpress.com/...-india/1297592

2. Toyota is in black after being in red for last 3 years (http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/...cle7134691.ece)

[RavenAvi]

Originally Posted by sadsack

I think the case of the Sunny as well as the Micra is that Nissan has not really created communication strategy that made sense to the potential buyer.

Word-by-mouth publicity of a new car arrival is also critical. The Sunny partly failed because the word quickly got around that Nissan's After Sales Service was shoddy, and the showroom behaviour of Nissan personnel was not great either. Despite having two wonderful engine options, the Sunny is not setting the sales charts on fire.

I have driven the petrol Sunny extensively and I can say this with confidence - after the Honda City, the Sunny is the second-best option in the C2-segment.

Originally Posted by sadsack

Renault is not feeling any heat from the Creta and the S-Cross, not yet anyway. Don't read too much into that.

The official Renault page has extensive offers for the Duster until 20th July.

Why? Because the Creta launches on the 21st July!

And judging by the number of desperate calls I am receiving from Renault sales guys for finalising the Duster purchase after asking for just a quotation about a month back, with an offer of a huge 1.25 lakhs discount for the top-end model just today morning, I would say Renault is definitely feeling the heat.

A lot more than what we think.

Originally Posted by sadsack

The Kite twins will go the Bolt/Zest way.

Isn't it too early to comment on this? It's a given that the Kite twins will replace the Indica/Indigo twins and so we can assume that Tata will give them superb VFM pricing initially. They would have learnt their lesson from the Bolt and I am sure they will not repeat this with the Kite twins now.

Like I said in my earlier post, wait and watch. Interesting times ahead.

[p'arth]

Few Cents:

- Maruti's service costs may or may not be lower but their service center experience is certainly not VFM. As a Scross customer I would certainly not be haggling around with service advisors who deal with a couple of dozen altos every day. I hope the Nexa experience encompasses the service too.

- Buying MS or Hyundai car is like a reverse investment. You invest 100 and you are assured to get back atleast 70. With a Tata car even if it better equipped, you invest 90 but you are not assured to get back 50. Unless Tata/GM/FIAT and the likes can build this investment assurance guarantee scheme no product will help.

- TATA needs to strip itself of the brand. They need to have new branding, a step even ahead of NEXA, where the new brand cannot be traced back to TATA. Maybe with a tagline "From the owners of JLR"

- FIAT at least has an engine story. What is GM's story? Why doesn't someone acquire GM India and turn it around?

- Renault and Nissan should consolidate their showrooms. MS doesn't have space to display all models. Renault/Nissan have enough space to display different colors/variants of same model

- I predict the self drive model will become very popular and may well become one of biggest car buying customer (b2b) in future that right now may be the government or taxi operators. A lot of under selling good cars can go to this channel and benefit both the operator (lower purchase costs/maintenance) and by offering lower hourly/running, the end consumers.

[Voyager-1]

Is this the first time ever the hatch market went below 50% of the total market? If so, this could be an important milestone in India's market.

Originally Posted by Aditya

[rsidd]

Wondering about Mahindra -- obviously they're doing fine (they also have a thriving commercial vehicle business) but in the car list they have only three reasonable sellers: old warhorses Bolero and Scorpio (probably boosted by rural sales) and the flashy XUV500. Their other introductions (Quanto, Xylo etc) are nowhere, the very solid Logan/Verito has gone downhill rapidly, the Verito Vibe was a joke that should have been killed at the conception state. So while they overtook Tata a while ago in total sales, the details are telling -- Tata has slumped far behind in the utility vehicle segment (Sumo, Safari etc) while Mahindra has slumped in the car segment (Verito), mini-SUV (Quanto) and, somewhat surprisingly to me, even the Xylo. What's Mahindra's plan for the future? Do they have something in mind to replace/upgrade the Verito or will they be abandoning it? What happens when competitors start infringing on Bolero/Scorpio territory in rural markets?

[opendro]

That is a very good point. I know people who have bought some of these market duds, but overall a good car, and they are cursing as they had to sell for whatever reason. So, the manufacturers either have a good exchange program of their own cars or reduce margins substantially, at least for some initial years. Tata, for instance, can assure of free warranty and maintenance for longer period than others while also keeping the price lower. Else, why would one go to them when there is a close competitor from a more proven product?

BTW, some of these good but market duds give a very good option to people buying used cars. My next car (though at least another 6 years away) will be a used car from such a dud. You can call me a bit of risk taker. But I truly believe that not all market duds are bad. Take the example of Honda Jazz or Fiat Linea. I myself plan to keep the Linea for at least 12 years (6 and a half already). On the contrary, I couldn't hold onto one of the best selling car of its time (Tata India V2 DLS) even for 3 years. A bad example, but many of the successful cars would have been a similar case for me. But looking back, I could have waited for a year and got a used Linea for a dirt price! Of course, there a certain amount of uncertainty about spare of a car that does not sell well, because parts manufacturers just stop making those parts. This is one lesson I learnt from Bajaj Saffire. I had a fuel tank leak and I couldn't just fix or source a replacement. Similar stories are there for cars like Palio. Sorry, I ended up writing too long.

Originally Posted by p'arth

Few Cents:
- Buying MS or Hyundai car is like a reverse investment. You invest 100 and you are assured to get back atleast 70. With a Tata car even if it better equipped, you invest 90 but you are not assured to get back 50. Unless Tata/GM/FIAT and the likes can build this investment assurance guarantee scheme no product will help.

Originally Posted by Voyager-1

Is this the first time ever the hatch market went below 50% of the total market? If so, this could be an important milestone in India's market.

I actually fail to understand why people even buy compact sedans when they can get a hatch of the same length with better space and looks at almost the same price. I think, i20 elite is doing a great job in reversing this craze for three box. Jazz will also hopefully do its bit in that direction. However, I blame partly on the manufacturers for not launching the beautiful and bigger sized hatches (4m to 4.3m), like Fiesta hatch, SX4 hatch, i30 hatch, etc. to name a few.

[srinath.s]

Originally Posted by sadsack

Please do not read too much into the Dzire outselling the Alto. This has happened once before and the very next month the Dzire was in third place with the Alto taking the first place again. You cannot conclude that the first time buyer is opting for the best because he is buying a Dzire or what you are calling a car from the B2 segment. If anything it could indicate increase in purchase power and nothing more.

I'm sorry but by no means was my statement a sweeping conclusion that first time buyers are opting for "the best". It's just an open question as to whether people are finally waking up to products of quality better than what they have been used to getting in the past, say, 5-10 years ago. And yes, this definitely means an increase in purchasing power too (only if they can afford it, will they buy it). In my personal circle, I know of atleast 3 people (all of them first time buyers) nitpicking a lot about the features offered, interior quality, etc., during their purchase decisions. And I have a reason to believe a lot of first time buyers are jumping a segment or two above the so-called traditional entry segment of the Altos and the Eons, based on observations both in my personal circle and outside.