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Old 24th June 2020, 11:30   #76
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

Please stop ganging up on members who pose contrarian views like in this thread. The entire point of a mature discussion forum is being able to voice one's opinion without getting unreasonable flak which somehow seems not the case off-late. Be it Coronavirus threads (where God forbid if someone praises the govt. or advocates a lockdown) to threads related to stray dogs (side note, not everyone who doesn't want his car being damaged by a dog is a monster and yes I'm a dog lover), caustic sarcasm filled posts discourage new members from openly posting new topics and asking questions. It reminds me of my sixth standard algebra class, where our venerated algebra teacher repeated the phrase "No question is stupid" but then the moment one asked one, it was celebrated with a palm-to-cheek contact". I wonder how the members will behave if we have a moon landing denier amidst us!


Let people feel free to pose their views.
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Old 24th June 2020, 11:44   #77
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ValarMorghulis View Post
Please stop ganging up on members who pose contrarian views like in this thread. The entire point of a mature discussion forum is being able to voice one's opinion without getting unreasonable flak which somehow seems not the case off-late. Be it Coronavirus threads (where God forbid if someone praises the govt. or advocates a lockdown) to threads related to stray dogs (side note, not everyone who doesn't want his car being damaged by a dog is a monster and yes I'm a dog lover), caustic sarcasm filled posts discourage new members from openly posting new topics and asking questions. It reminds me of my sixth standard algebra class, where our venerated algebra teacher repeated the phrase "No question is stupid" but then the moment one asked one, it was celebrated with a palm-to-cheek contact". I wonder how the members will behave if we have a moon landing denier amidst us!


Let people feel free to pose their views.
Lets also get rid of the quote button? You can have a contrarian view on a contrarian view. No? As long as the discussion is civil, I dont see how anyone is ganging up on anyone and if it is the case, the report to mod button is always there and we would agree when I say that this is a very well mod'ed forum.
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Old 24th June 2020, 11:49   #78
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
Lets also get rid of the quote button? You can have a contrarian view on a contrarian view. No? As long as the discussion is civil, I dont see how anyone is ganging up on anyone and if it is the case, the report to mod button is always there and we would agree when I say that this is a very well mod'ed forum.
Of course civil discussion is the norm and expected, that's precisely why I used terms like "unreasonable flak", "caustic sarcasm filled posts".
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Old 24th June 2020, 11:54   #79
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

I'm a transporter and just these Rs. 10 increase in past 17-18 days has made more than 80% of my destinations loss-making (cement, short-routes, mostly intra-state). It is a high-volume and low margin business where diesel accounts for 50-60% of turnover and as such very price sensitive. The business wasn't doing great anyway but now there are big losses to add to it. I accept some of it as part of business. Companies aren't too keen to immediately increase freight as they are facing issues as well because of Covid and they will eventually increase accordingly. All it will do is increase the prices of the products even more.
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Old 24th June 2020, 11:56   #80
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

Diesel prices surpassing petrol prices! What a blessing to Maruti Suzuki, this makes their diesel vs petrol arguments more compelling.

Purely my thought, it can be totally wrong, Maruti always manages to know/get the information about government actions/decisions & policy changes before hand compared to other OEMs, this always puts them in an advantageous position.

Government pushing/planning to increase CNG fuel stations throughout the country, Maruti is increasing their CNG portfolio, both the government decisions and Maruti's actions most of the times go hand in hand.

Last edited by wheelguy : 24th June 2020 at 11:59.
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Old 24th June 2020, 11:59   #81
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ValarMorghulis View Post
Please stop ganging up on members who pose contrarian views like in this thread.
This is a very-well moderated forum. Just because your view is contradicted by the majority, or others' view is supported by the majority, that doesn't mean that the people are ganging against you. That freedom is there in the constitution. If your thought is against the govt or some people, that doesn't mean that people are ganging against the govt or it is against the interests of the nation.
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Old 24th June 2020, 12:07   #82
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

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Originally Posted by romeomidhun View Post
This is a very-well moderated forum. Just because your view is contradicted by the majority, or others' view is supported by the majority, that doesn't mean that the people are ganging against you. That freedom is there in the constitution. If your thought is against the govt or some people, that doesn't mean that people are ganging against the govt or it is against the interests of the nation.
OK, I'll reiterate. I'm not against contradictory views. In fact they make the discussions interesting lest we all start flowing down stream together. My only point was "unreasonable flak" and "caustic sarcasm filled posts".
PS: I haven't faced this situation, yet.
PS2: Government discussions, technically, aren't allowed in this forum. No politics is the rule.
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Old 24th June 2020, 13:05   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romeomidhun View Post
This thought is the beginning of end of democracy. Fascist decisions have been reverted many times in the history of human kind for good. As a strong believer in democracy, I am sure this fascism won't last long.

Let's not have this insane word inflation please. If you knew what a fascist govt was, you would not be throwing around such words like confetti.

For a start, the closest such govt in the mainstream in the world today is China, try making the same comment on any social media forum there and at best it will be taken down instantly, at worst you will "disappear".

A functioning, robust Democracy (the only one in this entire region per the Economist EIU) is not even in the same ballpark as a fascist govt.

Just because the govt takes decisions you don't like, doesn't make it a fascist govt.


.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rationalist View Post
Price of Petrol, Diesel in neighbouring countries in Indian rupees
Pakistan : 34, 37
China: 63, 54
Srilanka: 66, 42
Nepal: 60, 53
Bhutan: 49, 46
Myanmar: 36, 32

If Dollar has appreciated that should affect these countries also, isn’t it? You can wake up someone who is asleep, but not the one pretending to! In this banana republic of blind followers nothing will change.
Let's look at data, this forum when it comes to vehicles is very data focussed so let's stick to data.

All these states except China have far greater fiscal deficits, Pakistani Economy is so stressed that they need IMF bail outs every 3-4 years, with free handouts from the petro states and China every other year.

70% of the Pakistani budget is taken up by defense spending and servicing of debt.

Reducing prices is a very easy thing to do, but reducing prices is a counterintuitive but logical thing to do to mop up revenues which are lost from other streams.

Your arguing that India is a banana republic but SL, Myanmar, B'desh, China are not, purely on the basis of fuel prices is a spectacularly myopic thing to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
I am not sure but some people on the thread are suggesting that government somehow is the victim in all this as they try to shore up the economy in these tough times, the same government which has ordered jumbo jets worth 10,000 crores for VIP travel and is spending upwards of 20,000 crores on the Delhi central vista project. Needless expenses in a dire economy to be honest and we need to call their hypocrisy rather than defend them unto last breath.
These costs are amortized in years. Let's look at data again,

Annual revenue mop up from increased duties - 1.6l crores

The Central Vista project (which is needed for any expansion of our parliament and 500+ is too all an MP base by any yardstick) is 20k over 5 years, so 5k / year

Are you even looking at the scale of comparison? I guess if the govt reduced prices by 2 paise to account for the central vista project you will be happy?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Malyaj View Post
I think the human race has forgotten how to have debates without insults, innuendos, sarcasm, put downs and condescension. I don't know if the shrill debates on TV world over are a reflection of us or a cause of our behaviour. I am occasionally guilty of this behaviour myself
Exactly and also increasingly, extreme hyperbole and Fear Uncertainty and Doubt mongering.

Let's look at overall data from the last census

20% of our population walks to work daily

13% of our population takes a cycle

Combined 33% don't have any need for fossil fuels and these are our poorest sections

30% though report no commute needed (maybe they work out of the same Farm or office?)

Essentially a fuel price rise, esp on Petrol barely even touched 66% of our population.

Now those who do take motor vehicles,

13% two wheelers

2.7% personal cars / cabs

The rest take public transportation where hikes aren't passed on in proportion.

To all those crying crocodile tears about the poor and migrants and farmers,

Of the $300bn (approx) budget,

7% goes to ministry of Agriculture

6% goes to rural development

4% to fisheries and fisherman welfare

5% specifically to poor child nutrition and poor women health care

8% to SC / ST / Tribal welfare

5% to Mnrega

So directly we are talking about 35% directly to the poorest of the poor.

This leaves out things like Jal Jeevan (only you, we the rich and elite have access to piped water! The poor don't, spare a thought for them will you?) Which has another 10% allocated to it this year

This excludes the massive $1tn infra plan, all those smooth roads we drive on? Yeah that's right, it needs money to build, tolls notwithstanding.

My simple position is as follows, if you ever feel for the poor (80% of the country) and middle class (15%), then you will support this fuel price rise.

If you think you are the poor and middle class, just by virtue of owning a car you are not, esp if your car is above 15l inr which straight away puts you in the .5% income bracket.

You can't argue for the poor but turn around and say you think the fuel price rise is Fascist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by romeomidhun View Post
This is a very-well moderated forum. Just because your view is contradicted by the majority, or others' view is supported by the majority, that doesn't mean that the people are ganging against you. That freedom is there in the constitution. If your thought is against the govt or some people, that doesn't mean that people are ganging against the govt or it is against the interests of the nation.
Irony is you argue the govt is Fascist, and then turn around and argue that it is a Constitutional set up.

You can't have both my friend, it is an either or proposition.

And in the same vein, if someone supports the govt, it doesn't mean they are a fascist bhakth or whatever but the same freedom of expression enshrined to you in the constitution applies to us.

So if you want a reasoned debate, let's stop with the hyperbole and fearmongering.

First drop this "Fascist" rhetoric just because the govt is not something you support, it demeans and cheapens our whole country.

I personally might have not supported previous govts but not once ever have I said stuff like "not my PM, not my govt or fascist govt". Like it or not, it is my govt, my PM, my country.

At the end of the day, respect the electoral verdict. To go against it is the very definition of fascism

Last edited by Sheel : 24th June 2020 at 14:08. Reason: Please be careful about back to back posts on the same thread.
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Old 24th June 2020, 13:10   #84
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

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Originally Posted by Stribog View Post
Combined 33% don't have any need for fossil fuels and these are our poorest sections

30% though report no commute needed (maybe they work out of the same Farm or office?)

Essentially a fuel price rise, esp on Petrol barely even touched 66% of our population.

.

I think you are missing that these 33% still consume commodities transported using same fossil fuels, hence would pay higher price for consuming the same.

Fuel is such a basic essential commodity today that it directly or indirectly impact 100% of population.
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Old 24th June 2020, 13:15   #85
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

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Originally Posted by romeomidhun View Post
This thought is the beginning of end of democracy. Fascist decisions have been reverted many times in the history of human kind for good. As a strong believer in democracy, I am sure this fascism won't last long.

There is a saying which goes like this:

"They came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."
Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
I am not sure but some people on the thread are suggesting that government somehow is the victim in all this as they try to shore up the economy in these tough times, the same government which has ordered jumbo jets worth 10,000 crores for VIP travel and is spending upwards of 20,000 crores on the Delhi central vista project. Needless expenses in a dire economy to be honest and we need to call their hypocrisy rather than defend them unto last breath.
Two of the best posts on this thread. This govt has been extremely lucky that as soon as it came to power crude prices crashed. But, instead of reducing prices, they raised taxes and made a huge killing. This govt is also very lucky that there are people blindly supporting any and every policy or move they make. This govt. would really be envy of mature nations where politicians are roasted by press, opposition and even individuals. Recent incident of Australia comes to mind where PM faced wrath of victims he called on, after that bush-fire tragedy. Even in US, in the aftermath of George Floyd killing, a police officer minced no words to speak his mind against Trump. Goes to show the level of freedom enjoyed by members of the public. Shows how they blast politicians when the latter are wrong. People come before Govt in mature nations whereas here Govt comes before people and is supreme. If we so much as ask questions, more than Govt it is our fellow-citizens who get hurt and some of them go to the extent of heckling us down. This is indeed first in Indian history. Teambhp is very mature platform but if you look at some of the vernacular media you would be shocked to see the barrage of cuss words showered on anyone raising any question.
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Old 24th June 2020, 13:33   #86
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

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Originally Posted by Stribog View Post
These costs are amortized in years. Let's look at data again,

Annual revenue mop up from increased duties - 1.6l crores

The Central Vista project (which is needed for any expansion of our parliament and 500+ is too all an MP base by any yardstick) is 20k over 5 years, so 5k / year
I am not sure how amortising the cost over a period of n years makes it any better. It does not take away the fact that it is still a massive expense for a majority poor country. How is this project going to improve the life of an ordinary citizen, in any way? To put it in perspective, the phase 3 of the Delhi metro with 28 underground stations, 2 new lines and 11 route extensions, totaling 167.27 km cost $4.9 billion.

It is also the same government which had to ask World Bank for a measly $1 billion loan to fight COVID, a once in a lifetime pandemic which has broken the back of informal economy and its workers. The same government did not have any money to send millions of its most vulnerable and poor citizens to their homes when they in their infinite wisdom decided that it is okay to lock down a country of more than a billion people on a notice period of 4 hours. I still can't put the image of a child, sleeping riding on a suitcase while her mother dragged the suitcase on the road to her home hundred of kilometers in searing heat, away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stribog View Post
Are you even looking at the scale of comparison? I guess if the govt reduced prices by 2 paise to account for the central vista project you will be happy?
Every drop counts. They are elected leaders who should be setting an example. Majority population already have no means what so ever and are barely surviving. Again, government is not the victim. It can never be.

Last edited by extreme_torque : 24th June 2020 at 13:37.
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Old 24th June 2020, 13:37   #87
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

Whenever the government wants to make a new announcement, the PM comes on at 8PM, gets the country to their knees in a matter of hours.
They never come back to talk about what results their decisions have produced. I guess it's the high failure rate that they never talk about it, let it be the high fuel prices,GST,demonitisation,the COVID19 situation to name a few.
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Old 24th June 2020, 14:10   #88
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

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Irony is you argue the govt is Fascist, and then turn around and argue that it is a Constitutional set up.
Please don't put your words into my mouth.

Let me clarify: The govt is an elected one, but that doesn't mean all the decisions it takes is as per the people's wish. There are many decisions which is not.

What I said as "constitutional" is the right of the people to disagree - disagree with the govt or other people.

Abraham Lincoln once said: "You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time."

Gandhiji said: "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it. Truth stands, even if there be no public support. It is self sustained."

These words may not be of value to all. It all depends on whether you believe in their ideologies.

Last edited by moralfibre : 24th June 2020 at 15:46. Reason: You need to calm down and watch your tone!
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Old 24th June 2020, 14:28   #89
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

So today we see that prices have increased 18 days in a row. Diesel is now more costly than petrol in Delhi.

It is true that the govt needs money to manage the pandemic, but:
1) We have been diligently paying taxes all these years. Where is the money? Has it been used wisely, or only for propaganda?
2) Why is PM CARES not under RTI?
3) Why should the common man bear the burden, whereas companies like Reliance have become net debt free!
4) What is the guarantee that the money we pay via fuel price increase will be used for legitimate purposes?

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Old 24th June 2020, 14:55   #90
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

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Originally Posted by romeomidhun View Post
Please don't put your words into my mouth.

Let me clarify: The govt is an elected one, but that doesn't mean all the decisions it takes is as per the people's wish. There are many decisions which is not.[/b]
I personally do not agree to the price hike, I also see that it is probably the only easy money source for the current Government. The economy is in a bad shape, was there way before Covid hit us.
Covid, though having it's effects, will act as a shield for the Government to justify poor performance, and yes also China. The martyred soldiers have already been termed as Biharis by media, with the Bihar elections near.


Though, I see that there will come a day when those justifying the price hike, defending the lack of transparency will also join the increasing chorus for transparency and accountability.



Quote:
Originally Posted by romeomidhun View Post

There is a saying which goes like this:

"They came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."
This quote is brilliant and that is what happens when the any Government tries to be Fascist, It need not mean that they have successfully banished democracy, it can also mean they silence criticism, silence independent media, avoid being accountable. The general direction.


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Originally Posted by Stribog View Post
First drop this "Fascist" rhetoric just because the govt is not something you support, it demeans and cheapens our whole country.

I personally might have not supported previous govts but not once ever have I said stuff like "not my PM, not my govt or fascist govt". Like it or not, it is my govt, my PM, my country.

At the end of the day, respect the electoral verdict. To go against it is the very definition of fascism
The current Government is a democratically elected Government and hence accountable to the citizens and open to criticism, which is what we are seeing on this thread, essentially a criticism of their fuel pricing policy.

God knows I have said a lot of trash about the last Government and the last PM, whom I revere now.
The criticism in this thread is not at all demeaning in any personal way to the current Government or any particular member. I do not see a reason for offence. If a particular post offends you, feel free to report to the mods.

- Slick

Last edited by moralfibre : 24th June 2020 at 15:47. Reason: Removing offensive bits from the quoted post.
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